ANYONE SEE GIRLS GET CP AT SCHOOL?

Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
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Vince
Aug 01, 2010#2
Yes I did It was in class 2B (age approx.9) at primary school our Class teacher Mr K was was held in high reguard by parents etc. would rule his class with the aid of the cane and the slipper or his hand as well at times. Both girls and boys had to touch their toes in front of the class, He did say not only justice should be done but it should be seen to be done. We all thought that was fair at the time.

The standard number was two of the slipper or the cane, The girls were slippered /caned through their skirts, Boys were punished through trousers/pe/football shorts or whatever, Mr K would never hit too hard but to a 9yr old it stung a bit of course what is a stinger to a 9yr old is a tap to a 11 /12 year old

Odd times he did have boys and girls over his lap to be spanked by hand, but again in front of the class. he gave no secret or private spankings or anything like that

regards

Vince
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JennyBr
1,776
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Aug 02, 2010#3
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Andy

Browse the forum. I’ve listed some of my own experiences and a few other women have too.

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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Aug 02, 2010#4
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I did1, and so did my esteemed colleague Another_Lurker. As Jenny says, start browsing!

1. That is, saw a girl get CP at school.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 02, 2010#5
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Alan Turing. You said:

Yes indeed, a remarkably similar experience, the shock and horror of which blighted our lives thereafter!

You also said to Andy, echoing our distinguished fellow contributor Jenny:

That’s the key, there is a vast amount of stuff here in what seems on the face of it to be one of Andy’s areas of interest. However, we must recognise that this estimable Forum is now very much larger than when I started, and certainly considerably larger than when you started, and browsing isn’t as easy as it was unless you know where to look.
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Guest
Aug 03, 2010#6
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
At primary school aged about 6 in 1972 group of boys and girls called to front at story time. all got smacked in front of rest of class, boys had shorts pulled down at back and girls had back of dresses lifted, so all smacked on pants about 3 or 4 smacks each. smacked bottoms were regular in class but it was usually boys, I had my fair share!!! and yes it did sting… The teacher the next year used ruler very regularly, sometimes on bum through shorts or skirts but once me and some friends got it on backs of legs, including 2 girls!!!
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StevefromSE5
Aug 03, 2010#7
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
ANDY

My infant’s school experiences are on page 27 of previous posts-Sarf & South London in the title. Having thought about it again, I think there were probably more OTK smackings than I remembered. Maybe not every week, but possibly every other week-because it was usually boys, they were less likely to interest me & stay in the memory-sort of par for the course, whereas a girl getting smacked was less common, and, for reasons none can explain, just more interesting!

At primary school, smacked legs were not unknown for either sex or a smack or two on the bum as you stood there, again either sex. I don’t recall a single OTK smacking or spanking, or a slippering/caning in front of class & any that was done in private by the Head or Deputy Headmistress was cane on the hands.

ROBERT

That mass spanking sounds interesting and out of the ordinary run of things to’ve stuck in your memory-what sin they commit, can you recall?

Steve
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Guest
Aug 03, 2010#8
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I honestly cannot recall the reason for the smackings or indeed whether I ever knew, but they did really happen. Even at that young age I was fascinated by smacking, and wished it was me getting it, although the reality of being whacked was to be avoided as she really made your bottom sting. Any boy or girl smacked would cry with the pain, understandable really at that age.
It seemed totally natural at the time that the teacher would deal with any naughtiness, talking when told not to etc with a swift smacked bottom then carry on with class. We just accepted it and did not feel hard done by or abused.
However, the next teacher who used the ruler would smack for making mistakes with spellings, reading or tables which is very wrong in my opinion. She was quite cruel really whereas the first teacher was fair (especially as she never told mums if she had smacked us, it was dealt with and forgotten).
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 03, 2010#9
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Steve. In case, as is possible, Andy fails to understand the reference to ‘page 27′, here are links to your excellent accounts:

<div style=”margin-left:50px;”>Two of the Three R’s in 1956 Sarf London!

The 3rd R in South London 1957-victim sees whacking!</div>
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Nathan
Aug 04, 2010#10
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I witnessed two girls (names witheld) in my fourth grade class in the early 1980s who each received four strokes of the ruler on their hands for passing notes in class. Their punishment was administered in front of the class. The ruler was longer than the standard 30cm and was thicker than the one’s that we usually used for our classwork. A ex-girlfriend of mine said that she was spanked in front of the class by her fifth grade teacher for talking too much (name of ex-girlfriend, the school and the teacher who spanked her are witheld).
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Sally
Jan 15, 2011#11
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I attended a very exclusive private girls school in the UK during the early 1980s and there was plenty of classroom corporal punishment even in secondary school. Some of the female teachers were very strict and in some of their classes there was always a steady stream of naughty girls making their way to the front desk to receive a well deserved seeing to.

Back in those days it was not considered a big deal. It is only with the advent of the internet that the subject of female corporal punishment creates any interest whatsoever. Most girls who attended the private school system in the UK between let’s say 1970 and 1990 would have received some form of corporal punishment and would not have given a tinker’s cuss about it at the time.
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Another_Lurker
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Jan 15, 2011#12
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif\’);”>Hi Your Local Council. What do you think? Do you need to reopen the Pesting Tracker?
Hi Sally. In the (probably unlikely) event that you haven’t posted before a personal welcome to this estimable Forum.

I have to warn you though that the phrases
very exclusive private girls school

</li>
well deserved seeing to</li>
</div>have a certain notoriety here which is why I have referred you upwards to one of my senior colleagues for an opinion.

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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 15, 2011#13
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
It is only with the advent of the internet that the subject of female corporal punishment creates any interest whatsoever.

and

… to receive a well deserved seeing to.

Time to summon up hcj’s baloneymeter!
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Another_Lurker
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Jan 15, 2011#14
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……

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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 15, 2011#15
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
The view of the Golden Gate Bridge from Melton Mowbray is, as has previously been calculated, absolutely superb!
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Another_Lurker
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Jan 15, 2011#16
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif\’);”>Your Local Council wrote:

And here is that very calculation! </div>
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Leanne
Jan 15, 2011#17
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Firstly I would like to welcome Sally to the forum. She is clearly a young woman of great wit and intellect. We must respect her views because she was actually present when girls were dealt with.
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Sally
Jan 15, 2011#18
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hello Leanne. Thank you for those very kind words of encouragement. Yes it is true that my opinions are very relevant since I actually attended a very exclusive girls school as opposed to those very average units that would not know wood from canvas. I think that it is the contribution of young vibrant and eloquent women such as me and your very good self that give this forum relevance and credibility. Good luck to you.
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Another_Lurker
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Jan 15, 2011#19
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……

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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 15, 2011#20
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
My girls, of whom I am extraordinarily proud, would never have have been foolish enough to use the non-existent word “Firstly”. What you should say, Leanne, if you have several points to make, is “First, …. , Secondly, ….” and so on.

And if you have only one thing to say, there is no need to preface it by anything at all.
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StevefromSE5
Jan 15, 2011#21
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi A_L

Ignorance is bliss, if you see what I mean. Straulpieter had the right idea, if memory serves.

I did visit Melton Mowbray once-think it was on the way to a holiday in Epworth in 1988-90. Can’t remember the year, but the Saturday market was thrashing and pork pies could be espied all the way to the distant horizon and beyond.

Possibly even to the Golden Gate Bridge, but we were more concerned about getting to Axholme than ‘Frisco, so I couldn’t swear to that one. But, as we say in SE5, Melton Mowbray was veritably cudgelled up with pork pies that Saturday.

Steve
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neilfrommanc
276
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Jan 15, 2011#22
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I’m afraid that references to “private school” do not help with credibility as the evidence tends to show that girls-only private schools did NOT on the whole resort to CP all that much and certainly not to the effect that a “steady stream” would be up at the front for a whacking day after day.

This tended to be more likely in co-ed schools where, as others have intimated, girls MAY have been subject to an increased regime of CP to effect equality with boys (although sometimes not at all).

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Jan 15, 2011#23
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I’m dreadfully sorry to have to state this, but if Sally or Leanne received CP at an exclusive private school in the early 1980s they may indeed be “vibrant” but unfortunately they are no longer “young women”.

Not to me anyway, as I’m just turned 18 last Tuesday and love the products of Melton Mowbray almost as much as kippers wearing knickers.
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Guest
Jan 15, 2011#24
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Re: ANYONE SEE GIRLS GET CP AT SCHOOL?
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Guest
Jan 15, 2011#25
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Steve,and Another Lurker

Sorry about the nil post. New computer , sensitive touch screen

Anyway you forgot the Stilton , necessary as mortar for the pork pie tower. As an ex resident of the town, you may not have noticed but as I’ve told Another Lurker before, if you go a couple of miles towards Leicester you come to the top of Frisby Hill, by far the best place to build that tower, and down to village in the valley for a good pint and a game of skittles perhaps………..

Nev
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Another_Lurker
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Jan 16, 2011#26
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif\’);”>Hi Steve. You said:

Well I reckon if that pork pie tower had commenced that year to use up some of the surplus pies and work had continued at a steady pace ever since, it would be all of 0·000000001% of the necessary height by now!
Hi Prof.n. You said above:

That’ll teach you not to embrace new technology! Binary data entry via banks of switches, that’s the way to go! None of these silly keyboards, mice and touch screens – and you can bet some clown will come up with voice control to add to that list before too long!

Great idea about the Stilton though! I’ll talk to the contractors tomorrow! </div>
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Guest
Jan 16, 2011#27
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Another Lurker.

Believe it or not this machine has a limited voice command menu.Every now and then I must press something , but I know not what and its says …..’say a command’ …just like my blackberry, and , just like my blackberry when I tell it where to go, it feigns not to understand me . I think this machine is intended for someone with a higher level of technical ability than me …it is forever asking obscure questions I don’t understand , it annoyingly is horribly green and turns off wi fi and anything else I’m not using , then I have to turn it on again. It doesn’t have many plugs and wires, but eats batteries for breakfast , lunch and dinner.

Oh and the first time I used it it said it would restart , and went to sleep instead. I had to repartition the disk and reinstall windows….its working now….Why did I pay some idiot £40 to do it , when he clearly didn’t do it as well as me ?( good job I knew about F8 and F11) …..and final gripe there is no instruction manual or disk. Why not ? Well you can get the details you need from thew web site,so telephone support tell me yes but when the bloody thing refuses to wake up …………I said its a good job I have a couple of laptops on mobile broadband……well they said you wouldn’t buy a machine like this if you hadn’t …..

Plus point its super dooper processor and ginormous memory mean that gender agenda which takes ages to load on the laptops, loads here in less than 5 seconds ! And its huge screen means I don’t need to change specs!An d it can run three different browsers at once on split screens, , ….if I ever want to…..

The last line is sort of on topic, with apologies to Lewis Carroll

‘Speak roughly to your big black box,
and beat it when it bleeps ,
it only does it to annoy
because it would rather sleep ‘
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Sally
Jan 16, 2011#28
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I must say that most of the comments posted on this forum are about as useful as a rubber beak on a woodpecker. It is as obvious as the Sydney Opera House on a very clear day that c.p of girls would not be permitted in a mixed class for obvious reasons. The only credible accounts of c.p involving girls would have taken place in private girl’s schools.

As for some wags suggesting that a woman in her very early to mid forties is not young well that is ageism and is completely unacceptable. Methinks some of the so called “younger” members of this forum need to wake up to themselves and get a reality check asap. Thank you for your time and patience.
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JennyBr
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Jan 16, 2011#29
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Sally

Not only was it permitted, it happened too. Both boys and girls, myself included, were slippered, by teachers of both sexes, in front of the class. When I was 15 I was also slippered in the corridor (having been caught running a second time the same day by the same, male, teacher) in front of a group of first form boys – one of whom had lent the teacher the slipper to do it. What are the “obvious reasons” you refer to? They’re not obvious to me.

When a mixed sex group were caught misbehaving together (smoking for example) we were all taken into the office together and caned in view of each other. I’ve listed some of those events here.

You’re about ten years younger than I so you would have been just starting school around the time I was leaving. Things changed a lot in those ten years.

Incidentally, I’m puzzled by your saying “eloquent women such as me”[sic] didn’t your “very exclusive private girls school”[sic] teach you to use the nominative case in such a phrase? Was the omission of the genitive apostrophe from the second quotation a simple typographical error or were you not taught the genitive case either?

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Guest
Jan 16, 2011#30
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
THE last year i was in school 17 years old at the time,when we were all told by the head of studies that the group of us as school prefects was in a habit of letting the school down, by not reporting the juniors for breaking school rules.The next day linda who was just just 18 years old,let a junior into school late, and did not report him,thus we were all called into study office,and watched linda receive one stoke of the cane on each hand,and one stroke accross her backside as she was bent over his table,that was the only time i saw a girl caned at school.
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neilfrommanc
276
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Jan 16, 2011#31
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
All this talk about Rubber-Beaked Woodpeckers – as a birder in my spare time when I’m not perv … I mean, carrying out educational research … I am pleased to say I saw my very first one last year!

I was on my way to Rutland Water to see the ospreys and, lo and behold, as I passed through Melton Mowbray I lifted my nostrils to catch the delectable scent of steaming pie and one flew across right in front of me!

Well, I jammed on the brakes of my DeLorean DMC-12 but unfortunately failed to get a clear picture of the thing.

Jenny: I suspect that Very Private Girls Schools are loth to teach the genitive case as it sounds a teeny bit like “genitals” and hence liable to introduce impure thoughts, a bit like those vulgar fractions.
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OZGeorge
Jan 16, 2011#32
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Although girls were exempted from any form of corporal punishment at my primary school from about 1962 or 63,before that, I most certainly saw little girls smacked in a mixed class,only, however, by female teachers.

The procedure was similar to that applied to boys, who were put across the teachers’ knees, had their shorts pulled tight up over their bottoms, and were spanked on the exposed cheeks.

For girls, it was little pleated skirt lifted up, panties pulled up the bottom and bare cheeks smacked.
Obviously,both boys and girls were only very small children,and such punishment was routinely applied to them at home at the time.
It was certainly in no way traumatic or novel.

Boys felt very indignent indeed, when we discovered the exemption of girls from corporal punishment at school.
We felt it to be decidedly unfair.
In fact,I still do.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 16, 2011#33
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
in the early 60’s i was a school prefect, along with my girlfriend who also was a prefect,we were caught smoking while checking that the school class rooms were empty. The following morning we both had to report to the senior study master,and had no choice then to admit to smoking,we both had to report to the gym office that evening,where the gym mistress and gym master were present,we both had to change into our pe kits,and informed 4 strokes had been allocated for us,as it was lady’s first,she had to bend over the wooden gym horse,on doing so her short skirt showed her pants off,the gym mistress soon put the 4 strokes across her backside,and then it was turn 4 from the gym master,wearing short shorts my girlfriend said my backside liked bare while i was bent over.Both off us where 17 years old at the time.

That was in the Caned in PE kit thread, on 17th November at 7:26 pm (and also at 7:27 pm and 7:28 pm).

This sort of prose comes out of a machine! Turn the handle and another tedious paragraph plonks its way onto this Forum! Why? Surely there must be an individual behind all this rubbish, with something interesting and intelligent to say. Does he really have to write like a ten-year-old?
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Jan 16, 2011#34
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
And why does Gavin say, in the post above at 5:16 pm, that was the only time i saw a girl caned at school when, in the post I’ve quoted, he claimed to have seen his girlfriend caned? Stop fibbing, mate!
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Another_Lurker
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Jan 16, 2011#35
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif\’);”>Hi Jenny. You asked Sally:

All the evidence from past infestations by this individual suggests that the nearest ‘Sally’ ever got to a ‘very exclusive private girls’ school’, or indeed a girls’ school of any sort was as he walked past the gates!
Hi Your Local Council. You said of Gavin/Steve and his somewhat stereotypic contributions:

No, I don’t think he’s using a machine. Surely a machine would know about upper and lower case and were/where etc.?

But one thing intrigues me about Gavin/Steve, and I’ve remarked on it before here. He’s very conservative with the number of strokes. In composing the likes of his latest effort very few fantasists would have opted for a total of only three strokes in Linda’s topping and tailing.

Like you I wonder if Gavin/Steve actually has some true stories of school CP to tell but is putting them over in a way that causes us to doubt them, a problem compounded by posting under multiple names.

I’ll repeat my previous request to Gavin/Steve. He’s now told us the year (early 60s, when school CP was fairly common). Perhaps he’d also care to enlighten us about the type of school, the approximate number of pupils and, ideally but certainly not necessarily, the name of the school. With that, and with a little truth and consistency, who knows, he might just convince us! </div>

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JennyBr
1,776
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Jan 17, 2011#36
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi OZGeorge

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>Boys felt very indignent indeed, when we discovered the exemption of girls from corporal punishment at school.
We felt it to be decidedly unfair.
In fact,I still do.</div>
Are you sure you and your former schoolmates really thought it was unfair? I thought boys would see it like that too but another poster disagreed. I was told mine was a “woman’s view” and that boys did think it was fair for them to be caned whilst equally guilty girls received some other, lesser, punishment.

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OZGeorge
Jan 17, 2011#37
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Yes Jenny, all of the boys in my class felt decidedly put out about it,when it eventually became clear that the girls would no longer be subject to corporal punishment.

We were never given an announcement about it on parade or anything like that.
No teacher came right out and said anything concrete, but we all got to know about it simply by the teachers’ behaviour in the classroom.

A boy may have commited some sin and would be duly spanked or sent for the cane.
A girl committing the same offence would not.
Some other form of punishment was applied.
The boys saw themselves as being discriminated against, and they were correct.

The girls in our class, to their credit, did not tease the boys when they were spanked or sent for the cane.

I think that they had been there themselves, and so they knew how we felt, and empathised with us.

Boys coming up the school from lower grades however, were not so lucky, and could be very cruelly teased by some of the young ladies, even to tears sometimes.

It seemed to encapsulate the attitude of the time,that boys had to be toughened up and treated more sternly than girls, who were considered ‘softer’.

In many ways it was simply a ‘given’ that boys must be beaten. There was no apparent reason as far as I could see, why boys should be treated differently to girls as far as punishment went.

Some girls at our school were quite literally little terrors, worse than any boy.
If they could be managed without the use of corporal punishment, why couldn’t boys?

I feel that if corporal punishment is going to be mandated for a student body, it should be across the board, with no allowances for gender.

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ALICE
Jan 17, 2011#38
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Jenny

I really admire your intellect and knowledge of grammar. I feel very inadequate compared to you and must admit that I did not really understand your reply to Sally concerning her use of the generative. However I must agree with Sally that generally speaking a 17 year old girl would not be smacked in front of a mixed class because of modesty reasons.

I will admit to being just a wee bit older than you and Sally but I attended a private girls school in Aberdeen (I will not mention the year) where it was not uncommon for the female teachers to deal rather severely with impish trout of any age. Now I cannot go into too much detail due to privacy considerations but suffice it to say that it was not uncommon for the derrieres of naughty senior girls to be subjected to rougher than usual treatment. Six of the best with the McRostie would soon quickly out even the cheekiest of possums. Jenny please keep posting because I think you are neat.Best wishes from Alice.

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Sally
Jan 17, 2011#39
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Greetings Jenny. Thank you for your reply. Since I have never had any experience in a mixed public school I will have to take your word that some senior girls might have been slippered in front of the class, although I find this very hard to believe.

However I assume that this was over their skirts. All my schooling was at a private girls school where it was not uncommon for girls to be bent over the front desk, have their skirts raised and given a very sound smacking either across the top/back of the bare upper thighs or clothed bottom. I am certain that this would have been permissible in a mixed school.
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PensionerJames
Jan 17, 2011#40
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Well it was a mass caning if you can call 5 or 6 girls getting punished for the same offence, which I recall as talking/misbehaving in class whilst the teacher was conducting a lesson.

Punishment was simply one stroke of the cane on the palm of the hand and to be fair there wasn’t a flood of tears, perhaps a bit snivelling. The father of one of the girls was a teacher at another school and it appeared that our class teacher knew her father for he apologised to her prior to administering the punishment by saying “I’m sorry xxxxx but you were behaving just like the others”, or words to that effect.

The school was Spring Gardens (Junior), North Shields, circa 1952, ages circa 11 years.

I had seen girls caned before but it was rare. It was a different matter as far as boys were concerned but the teachers weren’t sadistic and I really enjoyed my years at this school, (ref. my postings on CP-HAVE YOU HAD IT SURVEY)
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neilfrommanc
276
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Jan 17, 2011#41
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Well, it seems I ought to have done more wildlife watching in Scotland, where it seems there were possums and impish trout abounding right up until 2006!
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JennyBr
1,776
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Jan 18, 2011#42
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi OZGeorge

Thank you for confirming that. As I said, I thought that would be the case. I’ve also often said that caning boys but not girls for similar offences was unfair. I gave several links to posts (here) from men who agree. Doctor Domuinum, however, claims boys don’t think it’s unfair to them. For example, here -“And by the same token, most of them would probably be very annoyed if they were told that girls were going around claiming boys were being treated unfairly by being caned, when the boys don’t think that. What right do a bunch of girls have to tell them they should think is fair and unfair. Actually, I avoid saying which sex a sexist CP policy is unfair to because it’s not always clear. For example, if we had been at school together and were caught talking in class, I think it would be unfair to you if you got the slipper and I got a mild “telling off”. (You’re free to disagree of course. ) However, it would be unfair to me if I got 1000 lines and you just got a couple of half-hearted whacks with the slipper. Of course, I could just refuse to do the lines but then what would happen? On the few occasions I did get lines or detentions, I simply failed to do them so I got the slipper. If I had attended a sexist school however, what could the teacher have done? I could either have been suspended, expelled or let off. The first two would have been extremely unfair to me but a sexist school wouldn’t care – I was only a girl so my education was considered unimportant.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>A boy may have commited some sin and would be duly spanked or sent for the cane.
A girl committing the same offence would not.
Some other form of punishment was applied.
The boys saw themselves as being discriminated against, and they were correct.</div>
In a lot of schools, girls were simply let off. Some of my friends attended such schools and, as they said, they could do whatever they wanted with impunity.

You were lucky. There are a lot of reports here and elsewhere of girls in sexist schools, deliberately goading boys into misbehaving so they (the boys) were caned. It seems to have been a very common pastime.

They might have been the intention but it worked to our disadvantage too. Girls who were permitted to do as they liked, didn’t get much of an education so were never able to achieve all they could.

It seems some people still believe boys should be beaten. I can’t see any reason for treating boys and girls differently either. If a boy and a girl are caught smoking for example, caning the boy and letting the girl off or giving her a lesser punishment suggests her health is not considered as important as his.

It’s not surprising the girls were worse than the boys – they didn’t face any significant sanctions. At my school, our levels of misbehaviour was about the same as the boys’ but we faced the same punishments. Clearly, as female “little terrors” were exempt from CP, it wasn’t considered necessary. Therefore its use on boys was an abuse.

I fully concur.

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dominum
1,407
Jan 18, 2011#43
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Thank you for confirming that. As I said, I thought that would be the case. I’ve also often said that caning boys but not girls for similar offences was unfair. I gave several links to posts (here) from men who agree. Doctor Domuinum, however, claims boys don’t think it’s unfair to them. For example, here -“And by the same token, most of them would probably be very annoyed if they were told that girls were going around claiming boys were being treated unfairly by being caned, when the boys don’t think that. What right do a bunch of girls have to tell them they should think is fair and unfair.

Jenny, you have clearly misunderstood a core part of what I have said and you are misrepresenting my position. I’ll assume that’s because I haven’t been clear and I’ll try and expalin it more clearly.

I am not saying that there are never ever under any circumstances cases where boys would not think it was unfair that girls were being punished differently from them. I can easily believe that there are cases where this would be true. It is, for example, especially likely to be true when somebody has been going around deliberately telling them that they should feel aggrieved, and only somewhat less likely if they have been raised from birth in a socio-political context that rams the idea that equal is the same thing as identical down their throats constantly – treating political theory as the be all and end all of teaching children.

But by the same token, when children have instead been raised in a context where differentiation by gender is treated as normal and appropriate whenever it leads to better outcomes for both boys and girls than is achieved in a gender neutral system (which they can also see in action all around them, and they can see it achieving inferiour results) and where, instead of being taught that equal treatment is, rather than being the same as identical treatment, instead based around the idea that everybody has an equal right to achieve at his or her individual potential, even when it is different from that of the person next to them, and even when this sometimes means that some people need to be treated differently from others in the interests of justice and fairness (ie, ranging from accepting that some people may need additional help with learning to read – and that doesn’t mean everybody in the class should be given the same ‘help’ whether they need it or not – or at the other end, that the kid who can do calculus at age 12, should be allowed to do calculus rather than be required to do basic algebra with the rest of their class, that the expectations in PE for the child with poor motor skills, may be somewhat different from those for the child who has already been signed up with the Institute of Sport, as a potential Olympian), things are a little bit different. In that type of context, it is much less likely that one group of children will suddenly develop a serious objection to the idea that an entirely different group of children are being treated differently from them. In that type of environment, especially when they can clearly see that both groups are outperforming anybody they can see in a heterogenous system that ignore differences in all sorts of areas, they don’t tend to obsess about these things provided they understand there are reasons for the differentiation.

Personally, of the type of education described in the above two paragraphs, I consider the latter approach greatly superior to the former.

My point has never been, as one example, that boys might not sometimes in theory object to the idea that they are being exposed to corporal punishment, while girls are not. I can easily believe that there are plenty of circumstances where that would be true. It would almost certainly be true in any case where the only reason such differentiation existed was because somebody felt girls were fundamentally weaker than boys – and I am absolutely certain that over the years, that has actually been quite a common reason for that type of policy. But the problem there, isn’t the policy but the underlying attitude – simply changing the policy won’t change the attitude.Rather my point is, that such negative attitudes and objection is not inevitable in a well run system and where that problem does not exist there is no reason to insist that policy address a non-existent problem.

By all means if boys or if girls or if both think the approach in place is unfair, then that needs to be addressed. And if the approach is a differentiated approach, then in that situation you need to rethink the differentiation.

But in a situation where neither girls not boys think the approach in place is unfair, then it is rather ridiculous to insist the policy should be changed in the interests of some theoretical idea of fairness.

By the same token, if you have in place a gender neutral policy that girls regard as fair and boys regard as unfair (or vice versa), you should be seriously considering the possibility that that policy is not fair, in reality, no matter how well it matches your political ideology.

And if your gender neutral policies are also leading to boys being excluded from school at five times the rates of girls, it might be time to wonder about them as well.

Where gender neutral policies on school discipline exist, boys are generally experiencing significant educational disadvantage compared to girls. That’s a fact.

And that isn’t equal. And it isn’t fair.
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Jan 18, 2011#44
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi George, just a couple of comments adding on to what I have just written to Jenny, mainly because you haven’t been around to see all the previous discussions on this issue.

Some girls at our school were quite literally little terrors, worse than any boy.
If they could be managed without the use of corporal punishment, why couldn’t boys?

Because boys and girls aren’t identical. And a significant part of that difference is biological in nature – far more than people thought in the 1970s-1990s. There’s been a lot of recent research in this area specifically looking at how things like brain chemistry, and structure (which do differ between males and females quite substanitally) affects these types of issues. And one of the most important discoveries is that different disciplinary techniques tend to work better for boys than girls, and vice versa. The likelihood of negative side effects from particular approaches is also higher for one sex or the other.

One of the biggest discoveries has the been the development of research evidence that show inductive techniques of discipline tend to work extremely well with most girls – and are incredibly unsuccessful with most boys.

Teachers have known this for decades – it’s not new. Teachers learned it by using different techniques and discovering for themselves which ones worked and which ones didn’t. This acquired knowledge is a large part of the reason, why, in most places, schools and teachers did wind up using different methods of discipline with boys and girls, particularly as schools tried to rely less and less on enforced disciplinary techniques like corporal punishment. When teachers increasingly moved towards using inductive techniques (in simple terms, we are talking about discipline techniques that try to make a child feel guilty about what they did), these were much more likely to work with girls than boys. If induction works with 90% of girls and only 10% of boys, assuming you have a similar level of misbehaviour among boys and girls (an assumption that actually isn’t true, but is easier for illustration here), a teacher with 20 misbehaving children – 10 girls and 10 boys – is after using induction effectively, going to have 1 girl and 9 boys misbehaving. In the days when the idea was to use non-physical discipline first and then physical discipline if the other methods failed, they might then cane – but they’d be caning nine boys for every girl.

As I say, now we have the actual hard psychological research that shows this is how it works – but good teachers could work it out for themselves a long time ago.

I feel that if corporal punishment is going to be mandated for a student body, it should be across the board, with no allowances for gender.

Even though the best research evidence available shows that this is a bad idea?

Just a simple question for you to ponder, George – do you want education based solely on political ideology – or that actually incorporates hard educational and psychological research?

Also ponder why single sex schools as a group consistently outperform co-educational schools across Australia, and why our modern education system is also leading to much better educational results for girls than boys – when girls were as far behind boys educationally, as boys are now as far behind girls, it was seen as a national crisis. It doesn’t seem to work both ways. Consider why.
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OZGeorge
Jan 18, 2011#45
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Thank you both, Jenny and the good Doctor, for your stimulating material.

Regarding the good Doctor’s request that I ponder his simple question.
I am afraid that he has me at a disadvantage,as I am not by profession an educator,nor do I have the reference sources for the psychological and biological educational research which he cites.

My dear younger sister who could possibly help me with this, is presently in Europe, but I may be able to contact her, provided that she answers my emails, which is by no means certain.

At this time, I will endeavour to reply as best I can to some of the content in the good Doctor’s posting.
I hope that I will be forgiven if it is a little scatty.

Briefly then, I hope, the reply that I posted to Jenny, was the genuine reflection of the way that I, and the other boys, I firmly believe, felt at the time, and indeed later,regarding smackybotts for boys and none for girls.

What it came down to,was not some gender related gripe as such, as this was not primarily the issue.
At that age,that is at about 8, I knew of course that girls were different to boys,but the mechanics I did not know, nor was I interested.
I did not particularly like girls at the time,nor did the other boys.

It was purely a question of ‘fairness’ or justice,if you like.
At that age children are extremely focused on fairness.
“He got more chocolate than me!” “Why is she allowed to go out and not me?”
You all know the tune.
To we boys, it was quite simply unfair,and we very genuinely resented it.
If Mary and I both didn’t do our homework, the most she would get was a telling off and maybe stand in the disgrace corner,but I would be soundly spanked.
NOT FAIR!!!!
What would you consider worse Doc? As a kid that is?

Don’t forget, that the vast majority of parents still spanked the little girls at home.
So why was school different, we reasoned?

I have no problem with believing your statements regarding the different developmental stages of girls and boys,and the biological differences also.
I have no problem in your statements regarding research finding that induction techniques work better with girls than boys.
You do not mention which techniques work best with boys by the way.
Presumeably you are not suggesting corporal punishment is the best way?

Since practically every school in this country now does not use corporal punishment, I would assume that disciplinary methods have been developed, that address the failure of induction techniques in boys,for a technique that does.

Teachers have been managing boys without the use of smacking or caning for many, many years, so something must work.
I concur with your suggestion that using corporal punishment on girls may have unwanted side-effects,but I do not see that as an argument for continuing to use it on boys.
Some boys, depending on their natures and physical make-up, can suffer terrible psychological scarring from caning.
I personally know at least one chap who does.

I cannot comment on the attitudes of older boys in secondary schools on this subject, as I attended an all boys school, which, I agree, is far more likely to produce better educational standards for boys.
Much less distraction.

I believe that corporal punishment,applied sparingly and wisely, and properly overseen, has its place in an all-boys institution.
I would also be inclined to suspect,that it may not be appropriate for use in an all-girls school.

In my view, co-educational schools are counter-productive in acheving the best results for either gender, and should be abolished,and re-modelled as single gender schools.

This of course, with the prevailing tide of ‘political correctness’, is never going to happen.
Gender politics comes before good sense and good educational outcomes for our children.

I know that this will probably not answer the good Doctor’s simple question to his satisfaction, so I will be prepared with an exercise book in the seat of my pants.
LOL!
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JennyBr
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Jan 18, 2011#46
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Doctor Dominum

In my experience, that seems to be the majority of cases. The exceptions seem to be when boys are taught, conditioned even, to see girls as delicate creatures in need of constant protection.

That’s where sex discrimination falls down. It doesn’t consider individual needs at all, it’s all based on an individual’s sex. Some girls might respond well to method ‘X’ and others to method ‘Y’. Likewise some boys might respond well to method ‘X’ and others to method ‘Y’ but sex discrimination would ignore that. Genuine gender differentiation might be appropriate but that’s not used – the only determinate used is sex. A sexist education would have been an absolute disaster for me – I was lucky to go to a school where I was given the same opportunities as boys, held to the same standards of behaviour, and subject to the same sanctions.

I agree. In the same way, just because CP might not be appropriate for some girls doesn’t mean we should all be exempt from it.

That goes to what I said above. If you maintain the idea that girls are delicate creatures in need of constant protection, you can get boys to accept girls being treated more leniently than they.

The policy reinforces the attitude. If you have a policy based on the erroneous idea that girls are too fragile to withstand anything more than a mild “telling off”, changing that policy quickly exposes the error so the attitude will change too.

Plenty of people do think discrimination of the grounds of sex is unfair. So many in fact that most, if not all, of the Western World has outlawed it.

More boys are excluded from school simply because they’re held to a higher standard of behaviour than girls. Prof. N. gave examples here and here. I gave an example here.. Even Mrs Beale-Buss admitted here that, in the case of hair styles, “The reason we have had to develop more rules is because girls push this limit more than boys. Partly because they are allowed to, but if we tried not to allow it, we’d face a far higher level of rebellion on this issue than our brother school would. Clearly such policies are not “gender neutral”.

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dominum
1,407
Jan 18, 2011#47
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
In my experience, that seems to be the majority of cases. The exceptions seem to be when boys are taught, conditioned even, to see girls as delicate creatures in need of constant protection.

Then your experience seems pretty limited to me. I’ve seen these attitudes repeatedly in boys who most certainly have never been taught that girls are delicate or in need of special protection. In literally thousands of such boys at a number of different schools. I’ve also seen the attitude in hundreds of girls (but I do have less experience with them)

Yes, I’ve also seen schools where boys were taught girls were weak – and you know, those were the boys who tended to resent girls getting special treatment.

That’s where sex discrimination falls down. It doesn’t consider individual needs at all, it’s all based on an individual’s sex.

First of all, I am not talking about sex discrimination. I am talking about gender (or sex if you prefer) differentiation. They are not the same thing and attempts to paint them as if they are generally constitute attempts to dishonestly try and steer the debate into a particular political framework where political correctness means nobody dares challenge the feminist status quo for fear of being labelled as some sort of barbarian. If you don’t want women given special treatment, it’s a good idea to try and avoid supporting such deliberate attempts to hijack and stifle the debate. I assume you are not trying to do that – but the fact is discrimination is NOT the same as differentiation.

Often failing to differentiate is discrimination – one of the clearest and simplest example of this would be somebody arguing that wheelchair ramps are a form of discrimination, rather than a form of differentiation.

Having said that, you are correct that gender differentiation does not consider individual needs. It’s not intended to – yes, it is important to individualise education – but you do that most successfully when you have already dealt with gross group characteristics.

Individualisation of education should come after gross group characteristics have been addressed,

Not before.

And not instead of

Show me a school that claims it individualises education for all students and 99 times out of 100, it’ll be a school that isn’t coming close to giving most of its students what it needs

Everytime a school successfully addresses a students need by addressing groups characteristics, it reduces the number of students who need individualised attention and that means there is more time and resources available to actually individualise for students who need it.

If a teacher has 30 students to deal with, do you think they are more likely to be successful by setting up 30 individualised education programs – or by targeting their teaching through group characteristics to address the needs of 24 of those children allowing them to focus individualisation on the six who are left?

It’s a very very simple concept. And it works.

Some girls might respond well to method ‘X’ and others to method ‘Y’. Likewise some boys might respond well to method ‘X’ and others to method ‘Y’ but sex discrimination would ignore that.

No, it doesn’t. First of all, once again, we are not talking about discrimination but differentiation. Secondly, gender differentiation is the start of a process not the end of it. Individualisation can, and should, still occur – and is now more likely to both happen, and more likely to work.

But even if it doesn’t, you’re still helping more kids than you would if you hadn’t done it.

What you seem to ignore is that failure to gender differentiate simply means treating 100% of children as if they are identical. Even if gender differentiation is only successful for 80% of boys and 80% of girls, by using it, it’s still a vast improvement over a policy that just treats all kids as if they are one homogenous groups.

Genuine gender differentiation might be appropriate but that’s not used – the only determinate used is sex. A sexist education would have been an absolute disaster for me – I was lucky to go to a school where I was given the same opportunities as boys, held to the same standards of behaviour, and subject to the same sanctions.

First of all, for the vast majority of people in the terms we are talking about when it comes to education, sex and gender are the same thing. That’s not true of all aspects of human life of course, but it is generally true when it comes to education.

Secondly, your assumptions about what gender differentiated education looks like are simply wrong and do not reflect reality. Gender differentiated education is not sexist. Students in schools that practice gender differentation are almost certain to have the same opportunities as all other students and are actually more likely to feel they can take advantage of those opportunities. Have a look at your typical coeducational school where boys and girls are allowed free choice of subjects – you will still see them choosing quite different subjects in some areas. In schools where gender differentiation is put into practice, girls are actually moire likely to choose those subjects generally regarded as for boys, and boys are actually more likely to choose those subjects generally regarded as for girls, than are students in schools that do not have a policy of differentiation. There’s all sorts of reasons for that, but you seem to want to ascribe ideas that are decades out of date to the idea of gender differentation – it is explicitly about increasing opportunities for both boys and girls.

In terms of behaviour, it’s not as clear cut. It is certainly quite possible – and I cannot quantify how likely it is – that in terms of behaviour, you personally might have been worse off in a school where girls could not have experienced corporal punishment. That’s perfectly possible. But you’d be no better off in that regard if you were in a school where boys could be caned, and girls couldn’t, than if you were in a school where nobody could be caned. Sure, reintroducing the cane for boys only would not help you in that school – but just say, it helps 50% of the boys. Are you really so important that the fact you are not being helped becomes a reason not to help those 50% of boys? I’m sorry if the policy doesn’t help you – but if it’s a choice between a policy that helps 200 students, the fact that it doesn’t help 201, or 220, or 240, or 280, is not a reason not to do it.

You worry about sexual discrimination in schools – so do I. And in modern education, sexual discrimination against the needs of boys is every bit as rife as sexual discrimination against girls was in the 1970s. We didn’t say back then that we were only allowed to fix things for girls, if it also benefitted boys. We cannot say now that only fixing things for boys should be allowed if it also benefits girls.

The current status quo with regards to discipline in most schools in the English speaking world treats girls better than it treats boys. That is sexually discriminatory, especially if you know what to do about it.

Having said that, a lot of the time there is going to be no reason not to make the change for both boys and girls – why not help 201 instead of 200, or 220 instead of 200, or 240 instead of 200, or 280 instead of 200 if it is possible to do so. Obviously that is a better solution than only helping the 200. But helping the 200 is still a lot better than not helping anybody. And in schools where the behavioural patterns of boys and girls are radically different sometimes the differentiated approach is going to be the one you can achieve.

I agree. In the same way, just because CP might not be appropriate for some girls doesn’t mean we should all be exempt from it.

Ideallu, no, it doesn’t mean that. But ideally we wouldn’t have a situation where most coeducational schools have disciplinary policies in place that do a better job of addressing misbehaviour among girls in comparison to boys. An imperfect solution is better than no solution.

That goes to what I said above. If you maintain the idea that girls are delicate creatures in need of constant protection, you can get boys to accept girls being treated more leniently than they.

Yes, you could. So don’t do that.

That’s not even remotely close to what I am advocating. I don’t regard girls as more delicate than boys. I just don’t see them as the same.

In fact, when we have an education system where boys are failing to complete school more often than girls, where boys tends to get lower marks than girls, where boys tend to have a higher level of emotional and behavioural disorders than girls (with the exception of eating disorders), I actually think it’s a bit amazing to have it suggested that in suggesting we try and fix this, I’m somehow supporting the idea that girls are more delicate than boys!

Well, first of all, I don’t believe it would. If your policy really is based on the idea that girls are fragile (which is not the reason for it) introducing the cane for girls would probably lead to every single time a girl cried being held up as proof that they are that fragile.

But perhaps more importantly, you’re postulating an extrem situation. I’m not advocating a policy that girls should only be told off.

Plenty of people do think discrimination of the grounds of sex is unfair. So many in fact that most, if not all, of the Western World has outlawed it.

As I say, there is a difference between discrimination and differentiation. Most of the Western World has pased quite a few laws requiring differentiation in appropriate cases. Things like wheelchair ramps, for example.

I am utterly opposed to sexual discrimination. That is one reason why I think educational policies that negatively effect boys at a far higher level than girls should not be protected.

And if your gender neutral policies are also leading to boys being excluded from school at five times the rates of girls, it might be time to wonder about them as well.

More boys are excluded from school simply because they’re held to a higher standard of behaviour than girls.

First of all, the idea that more boys are excluded from school than girls simply because they are held to a higher standard of behaviour is demonstrably nonesense. There are significant amounts of research showing real differences in behaviour of boys as compared to girls. I’m not saying there isn’t some degree of prejudice in operation here, but it doesn’t come close to explaining the levels that are seen.

But let’s just say for a moment, that the difference in exclusion levels was based solely on this characteristic. If you really do believe that the reason boys are being excluded from school at a higher rate than girls at the moment is down to pure and simple sexism, then surely that is a reason to say that the current policies need to be changed.

If introducing caning for boys reduces their suspension rate to the same level of girls, that alone would constitute a major improvement in educational outcomes for boys.

You’re basically claiming that the current system of discipline is sexually discriminatory towards boys – but you don’t want to do anything about that, unless things also get improved for girls.

How is that defensible on any level?

It’s like trying to address a 20% discrepancy in the pay of women versus the pay of men by raising everybody’s wages by 20%. If one group is being sexually discriminated against, you focus your solutions on that group first – you don’t block changes that will help them because you are worried about the privileged group.
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neilfrommanc
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Jan 18, 2011#48
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Well, the sensible contributors seem to be back so time for a sensible reply.

I can see both sides of the Jenny/Dr D discussion about the merits of a CP policy for boys only, but take this scenario:

Jenny and I were at school together (we weren’t, but just imagine):

We’ve misbehaved grossly, there’s a cane in the Head’s study. However, Jenny is known as a bit of an “impish trout”, a tomboy with a record of minor indiscipline, whereas Neil is a studious and sensible lad with a strong feminine side who’s never been in trouble before.

Now the HEAD could:

a) Cane neither of us, and award lines, detention or whatever. The answer in many cases today, and even in the faroff 1980s. No problem so far?

c) Cane Neil and think of some alternative for Jenny. Now that would have been the case in many, many schools which had a single-gender policy for CP. I would have taken it badly, Jenny (and everybody else) would feel she’d been let off to some degree, and she’d probably taunt me about it later. Whether it was the appropriate option given our respective characters simply wouldn’t have been an issue – you cane boys if what they’ve done is a caneable offence, you don’t cane girls even if they burn the school down. Nice easy policy. I would feel discriminated against, and if Jenny’s punishment puts her in long detention or writing out huge lists of lines when I’m recovered and playing football she might feel the same way.

What no school that I have ever heard of would do is option d) which is to cane Jenny because she’ll “respond well” to being caned and give Neil a detention or some “inductive” discipline which will work better with him.
All the fine talk about tailoring discipline policy to the needs of the individual child would go out of the window. Because you just don’t cane a girl and “let off” a boy, unless you’re to prepared to be seen as a pervert who likes hurting girls.

I still think option c) is wrong – yes it’ll “work” with many of the children, if you can’t afford the luxury of considering individuals and simply make a policy based on gender. But it flags very clearly that boys and girls, and hence men and women, can be treated differently purely on gender, so the engineering college can later find reasons for rejecting Jenny just as the nursing college will reject Neil.

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Guest
Jan 18, 2011#49
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Jenny said

Have to agree with her. When you use sex as a framework for analysis, it is akin predetermining your answers. You are not engaging in my view in anything approaching a justifiable scientific method given the socio-political context.

When you think about it we are talking of characteristics which are spread across the whole population, and may be centred upon one sex or the other, but are not exclusively allocated to one sex. I agree with Jenny again in that the distribution by gender ( self ascribed mode) would be a NEARER description of reality, but still would not be exhaustive .

To settle on sex is to use an ideal typology, which reflects an aspect of reality but does not exhaust or explain the problem.

What we rather need to do is to look at what general psychological characteristics predispose individuals to respond to corporal discipline, and those which tend to produce an adverse reaction, and in extremis social and/or psychological damage. It is , as Mrs BB maintains in her school an individual process where you must determine if an individual exhibits characteristics which indicate a likelihood of successful response to the cane, or , alternately an adverse reaction.

Such a typology can be applied across all students, not just a sub set. Now I agree there would be a much larger number of girls who end up in the ‘adverse’ risk group compared to boys, boys, and vice versa in the group for whom the punishment was an effective learning process. ( equally, there would be more older students in the ‘adverse’ category, and a predominance of younger students in the ‘effective’ group).

The important thing is , we would be treating the individuals fairly, according to their needs, and in a non-discriminatory manner.
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OZGeorge
Jan 18, 2011#50
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Along with neilfrommanc, I believe that the debate between the good Doctor and Jenny,highlights some very significant and interesting points on both sides of this question.

I feel myself,however,that neilfrommanc’s cogent and clear statements go directly to the heart of the matter.

My hat is off to you Sir.
Very neatly argued.
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JennyBr
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Jan 18, 2011#51
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi neilfrommanc

I’m not sure about the “impish trout” but the rest of your description of me is pretty accurate. Have we met somewhere? I’ll presume the description of your good self is accurate too.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>Now the HEAD could:

a) Cane neither of us, and award lines, detention or whatever. The answer in many cases today, and even in the faroff 1980s. No problem so far?

b) Cane both of us. Well, Jenny would probably take it better than me, after all she’s been here before, and it would be humiliating if I cried and she didn’t, but neither of us would feel we’d been mistreated or discriminated against if the offence deserved it.</div>
It could be argued that I deserved a harsher punishment because of my record but for an offence at the top end of the scale, giving us the same punishment wouldn’t be unfair.

I would definitely feel I’d been let off. That was the phrase used by (female) friends who attended sexist schools. They’d often tell me how they were caught misbehaving (smoking for example) but were let off for being girls.

I don’t don’t really know if I would have taunted you though. I know a lot of girls would but I’ve always had a strong sense of justice and fair play. However, that could have come from being brought up in a fair environment. It’s quite possible that, in a sexist environment, I might have been conditioned to see boys as something to be abused.

Exactly – and, as I said, gender (masculinity/femininity) isn’t considered. When my boyfriend and I were caught “out of bounds” together, if he had been caned and I let off for being a girl, it’s quite possible I would have put your last statement to the test. I suspect I would have proved you right. I believe I’ve mention how a girl at a cousin’s school got a detention for setting fire to a classroom. I’m not sure she turned up for it though.

Whoever managed to think of a system whereby each of two people both feel they were treated more harshly than the other? Almost guaranteed to maximise resentment. Pure genius. Of course, I probably wouldn’t bother doing the lines – what would be the point? If I were exempt from any real punishment I could just do many girls who attended sexist schools did – tell the Head. to [go away].

I don’t know of that ever happening. I could imagine my former Headmistress considering that type of policy but I think she would also have been concerned about the resentment and ill feeling such a policy could cause.

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Jan 19, 2011#52
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi OZGeorge

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>At that age,that is at about 8, I knew of course that girls were different to boys,but the mechanics I did not know, nor was I interested.
I did not particularly like girls at the time,nor did the other boys.

They skipped rope, we played ‘chasy’and ‘brandy’ and ‘red rover’.
They wore dresses, we wore shorts.
They messed about with dolls,we played marbles.
We peed out of our doodles, they didn’t have doodles.
Girls and boys were not alike.</div>
This particular specimen of “Sugar & Spice” never did learn to skip. The only “skipping” I ever did was games lessons in winter, when quite a lot us girls “forgot” our PE kit so had to spend the lesson sitting in a nice warm changing room.

At age 8 I wore dresses but, as I got older I found jeans more practical although I had to wear a skirt for school.

I was never particularly interested in dolls either although, when very young, I had to put up with being given then as presents. When I was a bit older (13 or 14 I think), I managed to persuade my parents to buy me a kit to build a transistor radio as a birthday present. Later, I saved my paper round money to buy a Mamod Steam Engine. At that age, I’d also developed an interest in the exothermic properties of certain chemical mixtures. I probably wasn’t a very good girl.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>It was purely a question of ‘fairness’ or justice,if you like.
At that age children are extremely focused on fairness.
“He got more chocolate than me!” “Why is she allowed to go out and not me?”
You all know the tune.
To we boys, it was quite simply unfair,and we very genuinely resented it.
If Mary and I both didn’t do our homework, the most she would get was a telling off and maybe stand in the disgrace corner,but I would be soundly spanked.
NOT FAIR!!!!</div>
Exactly! Treating people more or less favourably just because of their sex is clearly unfair. Why should I have been allowed to get away with misbehaviour just because I was a girl? In many schools, that’s exactly what happened. Children, especially, react very badly to being treated unfairly.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>Some boys, depending on their natures and physical make-up, can suffer terrible psychological scarring from caning.
I personally know at least one chap who does.</div>
We mustn’t ignore the psychological damage being treated unfairly can do either.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>I cannot comment on the attitudes of older boys in secondary schools on this subject, as I attended an all boys school, which, I agree, is far more likely to produce better educational standards for boys.
Much less distraction.</div>
Given what I’ve said about myself, above, do you really think I would have fitted in to a girls’ school? I very much doubt it.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>I believe that corporal punishment,applied sparingly and wisely, and properly overseen, has its place in an all-boys institution.
I would also be inclined to suspect,that it may not be appropriate for use in an all-girls school.</div>
Provided CP is used reasonably, it’s a useful tool. The problems occur when it’s used unreasonably. Using it on children of one sex only, regardless of the psychological make-up of the individual, is unreasonable.
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OZGeorge
Jan 19, 2011#53
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Jenny,at my primary school you would probably have earned the title of a ‘tomboy’.

There was in fact a little girl in our class who was an extreme example of this.

She avoided the other girls at playtime, and hung out with the guys.

She had great physical prowess, and could fight and wrestle with the boys and often come off best.

She could take part in our rough games and dish it out and take it with the best.

She played marbles like a pro.

All of this, of course, always means a lot to boys.

So she became an honourary boy with us lads, and was allowed into our games.

The teachers were forever trying to wean this little girl away from us, and get her interested in ‘girly’ pursuits.

It didn’t work however.

I thought she was fun. All the boys did.

It had absolutely nothing whatever to do with sex you understand.

She was just a ‘good guy’.
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JennyBr
1,776
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Jan 20, 2011#54
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Doctor Dominum

What you call “gender differentiation” is actually based on sex. You admitted sex and gender are not the same when you said “First of all, for the vast majority of people in the terms we are talking about when it comes to education, sex and gender are the same thing. That’s not true of all aspects of human life of course, but it is generally true when it comes to education.” As it’s not even always true in the case of education, using sex as the determinant prevents true gender discrimination/differentiation. Discrimination is only a matter of distinguishing one from another so treating people differently because of the sex, race, religion, whatever is an act of discrimination. Treating people differently because of their sex is “sex discrimination” so I call it that. I could call it “sex differentiation” but that tends to hide the reality of what happens.

It’s you who seems to be advocating special treatment for girls and women. I’m arguing in favour of girls and women being treated as equals of boys and men with the same rights the responsibilities.

That approach fails those of us who do not meet our presumed sex stereotypes. If “sex” and “gender” are considered the same thing in education then I would have to be treated as being completely feminine and expected to fit that stereotype. Treating me any other way would require admitting that, even in education, sex and gender were not the same.

When people are put into groups, their individual needs are usually ignored. As my mother said, “you’re a girl, you don’t want that [electronics kit], that’s for boys.” Luckily my father was more supportive.

It doesn’t matter what you call it, it amounts to the same thing. You put people into their sex (not gender) groups and there they stay. It becomes the be all and end all.

No it doesn’t. It means treating children as individuals regardless of their gender. When you group by sex, you treat all members of each group as homogeneous. That’s the reason they’re in that group but what you really have is two groups of individuals.

How can you discriminate or differentiate by gender (or sex) if boy genders (or sexes) have the same opportunities, rights and responsibilities? Such an arrangement sounds gender (or sex) neutral to me.

I can’t be sure of course but think I could have fared reasonably well in a school with no CP at all because I could still be treated fairly. I’m as certain as I can be that I would not have fared at all well in a school that only had CP for boys. If a boy and I had been caught talking in class, for example, I would have really resented getting a detention or lines if he just got a couple of whacks with a slipper. I wouldn’t have done the lines or turned up for detention (I didn’t anyway) so, if there were no CP for girls, what could the teacher do? I couldn’t respect a teacher who treated us so unfairly so my behaviour would have seriously deteriorated due both to my immunity from any realistic sanctions and my contempt for the teacher. Ultimately, I would probably have been expelled.

You’re presuming that a policy of CP for boys only would have no effect on the girls. Do you really think it would have had no effect on me if, when my boyfriend and I were caught “out of bounds” together, he had been caned and I let off or given some lesser “punishment”? Don’t you think that could have caused some serious psychological damage?

Put yourself in my position. Imagine, at 16, you and your girlfriend had been caught misbehaving together at your instigation. How would you have felt if she had been caned and you let off, or given some minor “punishment”, for being a boy?

As I was the instigator of the events, I would have felt so guilty I would have wanted to avenge him. The local glaziers would definitely been kept busy and I quite possibly would have tried to raze the place.

I wasn’t the most well behaved girl in the school but I wasn’t an out of control hooligan either. That type of policy could easily have turned me into one.

Even if it causes serious harm to everyone else?

The system as it is works as it does. You can’t change one part without affecting the rest so “hitting boys with sticks” will affect how the system works for girls too.

There’s every reason to make all sanctions available for use with all pupils. Why limit what you can do to help them?

Just as every time a boy cries when he’s caned is proof that boys are just as fragile as girls. Every time a girl took a caning well would be proof that we’re just as tough as boys too.

That’s what tended to happen in many schools though. Even you alluded to the idea that girls were let off lightly when I asked how you would deal with a boy who said he’d prefer you treat him as you would a girl. You replied (here) that “assuming I thought it was a genuine request (for whatever reason) and not some sort of dodge, I’d probably honour it.” If, by being treated as a girl meant he would simply receive an equivalent, albeit different, punishment, why would you even consider it might be “some sort of dodge”? You would know such an attempt couldn’t possibly work so his motive would be irrelevant. However, according to the graph you posted here there is no punishment considered as severe as the cane so it might be difficult to find an equivalent.

You might not see the discrimination but it’s there. Some of it is so common that it doesn’t even stand out as discrimination. We have a great deal more freedom than boys and men. Do you allow female teachers at your school to wear trousers? Do you allow men to wear skirts? It doesn’t matter whether any want to or not, the question is whether you would allow it. Would you tell a girl with a pony tail to get her hair cut? Would you tell a boy to? Have you considered that boys might misbehave because they resent seeing girls allowed to do as they want with impunity? I know I would if the situation were reversed but that might just be a female reaction.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>But let’s just say for a moment, that the difference in exclusion levels was based solely on this characteristic. If you really do believe that the reason boys are being excluded from school at a higher rate than girls at the moment is down to pure and simple sexism, then surely that is a reason to say that the current policies need to be changed.

If introducing caning for boys reduces their suspension rate to the same level of girls, that alone would constitute a major improvement in educational outcomes for boys.</div>
Sexist policies are wrong but adding a policy of “hitting boys with sticks” isn’t the cure. At best you replace one injustice with another but, more likely, you add another injustice. The answer is to remove the underlying sexism – not increase it.

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dominum
1,407
Jan 20, 2011#55
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
What you call “gender differentiation” is actually based on sex.

When I use the term “gender differentiation” I use thousands, of educators and allied professionals around the world use and understand the meaning of, quite clearly, and simply. I am sorry if you do not like the term, but it is the correct term. It is the accepted term. It is the understood term. It’s not a term I created. It is probably not the term I would have chosen. But it is the correct term.

There seem to be two reasons why the term ‘gender’ is used rather than ‘sex’. The first is that a lot of the work has been done in the US, where there is a ridiculous prudery in place in some educational circles where the term ‘sex’ is to be avoided at all costs, and ‘gender’ is most often used in its place. I am reminded of an old episode of The Goodies (well, there are no new episodes) where they are asked by a Mary Whitehouse clone to make an acceptable sex education film, and this results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLaffcAP0Yk

There’s also the fact that ‘sex differentation’ already had a set meaning in biology, so that couldn’t really be used without causing more confusion.

Arguing about the term makes about as much sense as me walking into a computer shop and demanding they sell me a set of hammers at half price, because there’s a sign on the wall that says “All hardware 50% off.”

Computers – where they sell you a 3 1/2 inch square piece of rigid blue plastic and call it a floppy disc!

You admitted sex and gender are not the same when you said “First of all, for the vast majority of people in the terms we are talking about when it comes to education, sex and gender are the same thing. That’s not true of all aspects of human life of course, but it is generally true when it comes to education.” As it’s not even always true in the case of education, using sex as the determinant prevents true gender discrimination/differentiation.

No, Jenny, it doesn’t. What prevents any type of gender or sex differentiation in education is having to constantly argue with people who have an entrenched politcal ideology that they want to force everybody else to follow at all times, no matter how much harm it does to children or their education.

Discrimination is only a matter of distinguishing one from another so treating people differently because of the sex, race, religion, whatever is an act of discrimination.

No, Jenny, it isn’t. The term is defined more clearly than that. The treatment must be negative in either intent or effect. When differentiation leads to positive outcomes for all concerned, it is not inherently discriminatory. When it leads to positive outcomes for a disadvantaged group, while having no significant negative effects whatsoever of an advantaged group, it is not discrimination either.

Treating people differently because of their sex is “sex discrimination” so I call it that. I could call it “sex differentiation” but that tends to hide the reality of what happens.

No, it doesn’t.

If a particular act of differentiation is discriminatory (and that isn’t impossible by any means – it can happen) that will become pretty clear pretty quickly. It’s extremely unlikely it will be hidden at all.

But the biggest problem with your argument is that failing to gender differentiate education is often discriminatory.

Coeducational schools where no form of gender differentiation occurs are much more likely to have policies in place that work better for girls than boys. This is a quite well known fact in modern education and it’s a reversal of the situation that applied up until the 1970s when default policies in coeducational schools tended to favour girls over boys. In these environments, failure to gender differentiate constitutes sexual discrimination.

No, I am not advocating special treatment for anyone. I am saying that education should be based on giving everybody what they need, which is not always the same thing as somebody else needs. I do believe women and girls are the equals of men and boys and should have the same rights and responsibilities.

And for that reason, I believe that whenever the coeducational paradigm has created a school where girls are being given an advantage over boys (because the default approach in that school, has (deliberately or otherwise) wound up being an approach that favours girls over boys, that that needs to be changed. But as I have no desire to stop a school using what is very likely the correct approach for roughly half of their student population, I’d prefer that the changes made be targeted towards changing things for the groups that is being harmed, rather than changing them for the group that is being helped. The ideal solution is for all the children to be getting the education they need rather than roughly half. And there’s normally absolutely no reason to rob Pauline to help Peter. You can leave in place the policies that are helping the girls for the girls.

That approach fails those of us who do not meet our presumed sex stereotypes.

The gender neutral approach is already failing you, because you don’t fit a gender neutral stereotype either.

If “sex” and “gender” are considered the same thing in education then I would have to be treated as being completely feminine and expected to fit that stereotype. Treating me any other way would require admitting that, even in education, sex and gender were not the same.

Spoken like a true ideologist who doesn’t conceive that other people aren’t as hidebound and unyielding as those who base everything on purity of thought.

<i>When people are put into groups, their individual needs are usually ignored. As my mother said, “you’re a girl, you don’t want that [electronics kit], that’s for boys.” Luckily my father was more supportive.

Because your mother had a stupidly sexist idea, doesn’t mean anybody else has to have it. Nor does it mean they do have it.

There is nothing in gender differentiation that says “girls can’t do electronics” or that “girls shouldn’t do electronics.” All gender differentiation says is that “If only 20% of girls want to do electronics, while 80% of boys want to do electronics, then that is OK! It’s not a sign there’s something rotten in the state of Denmark.”

It also says things like “Hey – 20% of girls say that they would like to do electronics, but only 10% of them have chosen to do that and when we’ve asked them why, they’ve said that they find it uncomfortable being in classes where they are outnumbered five to one by the boys. There’s enough girls in that category for a class of their own – so let’s set one up.”

It doesn’t matter what you call it, it amounts to the same thing. You put people into their sex (not gender) groups and there they stay. It becomes the be all and end all.

No, it doesn’t. That hasn’t generally happened in a single school I have seen use these policies in the last twenty years. It may have happened before that.

No it doesn’t. It means treating children as individuals regardless of their gender.

No, again, it doesn’t. That happens in a few schools – it doesn’t happen in most. It would be nice if it did, but there are very few schools where it does.

And schools that refuse to even acknowledge obvious large scale differences are the least likely where it is going to happen.

When you group by sex, you treat all members of each group as homogeneous.

I’ve never ever seen a school where that is true, but I concede it could happen. Such a school would still be better than a school where it was just treating all kids as homogenous.

But it is unlikely to happen. As soon as you start a process of differentiation, it’s likely to continue. It’s the first step that is the hardest. Gender (or sex) doesn’t have to be that first step but in an education system where data is showing up that one sex is consistently outperforming the other, it’s a sensible place to start. It is also convenient because in most schools, the numbers are generally roughly even which makes it straightforward to plan for.

That’s the reason they’re in that group but what you really have is two groups of individuals.

Yes, you do – and so you continue the process having started it until you are addressing all relevant differences.

Because you don’t understand what it means. If you read Sax “Why Gender Matters”, pages 24-248, in his discussion of Clear Water Academy in Calgary, he explains it better than I can – remember my experience is mostly in single sex environments.

I can’t be sure of course but think I could have fared reasonably well in a school with no CP at all because I could still be treated fairly.

The trouble with this statement is that you are the one defining what is and isn’t fair, and that is not a simple calculation. What you regard as fair treatment, somebody else might regard as profoundly unfair.

Consider a coeducational school with 1000 pupils, 500 boys and 500 girls. They poll their students and 450 girls are opposed to corporal punishment while 100 boys are opposed to it. Based on this 55% plurality, they abolish corporal punishment?

Would you consider that fair?

90% of girls have got what they wanted. 80% of boys on the other hand have had a policy they disagree with inflicted on them. I would not consider that fair.

I would consider it just as unfair if 450 girls voted for abolition and 0 boys did and the Principal decided that 55% support mean there shouldn’t be abolition. Because 100% of the boys have got the outcome they wanted and 90% of the girls haven’t.

Whether or not a school without corporal punishment is fair or not depends on how it got there. It depends on what other policies are in place. And to a great extent, sometimes it depends on perceptions that may or not be shared with others.

I’m as certain as I can be that I would not have fared at all well in a school that only had CP for boys. If a boy and I had been caught talking in class, for example, I would have really resented getting a detention or lines if he just got a couple of whacks with a slipper. I wouldn’t have done the lines or turned up for detention (I didn’t anyway) so, if there were no CP for girls, what could the teacher do? I couldn’t respect a teacher who treated us so unfairly so my behaviour would have seriously deteriorated due both to my immunity from any realistic sanctions and my contempt for the teacher. Ultimately, I would probably have been expelled.

So because a teacher is working within the regulations set for them, you’d hold them in contempt – that hardly seems fair to me

But you might be right – maybe such a system would be bad for you. Maybe such a system would have meant your behaviour deteriorating further and further until you were expelled. Maybe.

That is what is happening now to tens of thousands of students in the English speaking world. And significantly, in my view, it is something that is happening to far, far, far more boys than it is to girls. Showing that some aspect of what is happening currently is sexually discriminatory. Whether or not it is because boys are somewhat more likely to misbehave and many schools have been actively prevented from using methods that are most likely to work with boys, and forced only to use those methods that tend to be most effective with girls (my thesis as a teacher and educational psychologist, shared with quite a large number of my colleagues to a greater or lesser extent, and also the general conclusion of any number of enquiries and studies into this), or whether it’s because schools are simply more likely to punish boys, and ignore the behaviour of girls (a thesis you’ve prevented), it is sexually discriminatory.

And a change in policy that would reduce that discrimination is something I think that should be supported – and refusing to do so in order to preserve a status quo that advantages girls, or to prevent even the slightest theoretical possibility of negative consequences to girls, is inherently sexist towards boys.

On the other hand, changing a system that seems to be working well for girls, simply because you are changing things for boys, is inherently sexist towards girls.

But you’d be no better off in that regard if you were in a school where boys could be caned, and girls couldn’t, than if you were in a school where nobody could be caned.

You’re presuming that a policy of CP for boys only would have no effect on the girls.

Not quite. I’m just not assuming that it would. And I’m not assuming that just because it might have an effect on the girls, that’s not a reason to do it. Girls are not more important than boys. The fact that a change in policy that will help boys might have some impact on girls is not a reason to veto it.

I’d prefer to avoid any negative impact on the girls – that’s a big part of the reason why I support gender differentiation – because that makes it more likely that goal can be achieved. But if one sex is being disadvantaged, while the other is being privileged, you don’t have to guarantee the privilege will be protected before you address the disadvantage.

Do you really think it would have had no effect on me if, when my boyfriend and I were caught “out of bounds” together, he had been caned and I let off or given some lesser “punishment”?

No, I don’t think that. But if it was enough of a concern, I could solve it simply by not caning either of you.

Don’t you think that could have caused some serious psychological damage?

Again, if that was a concern, I still have options available to deal with it.

Annoyed and irritated. But I would have also felt incredibly annoyed if she was caned just because I was.

I’m afraid the idea that somebody might be driven to uncontrollable rage by not being caned doesn’t, from a psychological or pedagogical perspective, indicate to me that they should be caned. It would indicate they need heavy duty counselling to address some sort of anger disorder and possibly a brain scan.

I wasn’t the most well behaved girl in the school but I wasn’t an out of control hooligan either. That type of policy could easily have turned me into one.

The type of behaviour you are describing as potentially possible here rises to the level of an impulse control disorder. I don’t see much evidence that you have any such disorder.

Sure, reintroducing the cane for boys only would not help you in that school – but just say, it helps 50% of the boys. Are you really so important that the fact you are not being helped becomes a reason not to help those 50% of boys? I’m sorry if the policy doesn’t help you – but if it’s a choice between a policy that helps 200 students, the fact that it doesn’t help 201, or 220, or 240, or 280, is not a reason not to do it.

Even if it causes serious harm to everyone else?

No, not if it causes serious harm to everyone else. If, for some reason, you have some unusual situation in that school which leads you to believe that this would be the case – and it would have to be an unusual situation given that literally thousands of schools operated under such differentiated policies for decades without such harm occurring – then you shouldn’t do it. And if serious harm starts appearing, you should change the policy back.

But the mere possibility – especially an extremely unlikely possiblity – that harm might occur is not a reason to block a policy that will stop harm that is actually occurring.

The system as it is works as it does. You can’t change one part without affecting the rest so “hitting boys with sticks” will affect how the system works for girls too.

Actually, yes, you can change one part of a system without affecting the rest in a great many cases. It just takes care and consideration.

Introducing corporal punishment for boys only in a school might well have some impact on the girls, I agree – but if the positive consequences for boys significanly outweigh any negative consequences for girls, then that’s not a reason not to do it.

If a school is suspending 20 boys a year, and 5 girls a year, and introducing the cane for boys means it winds up suspending only 10 boys a year, with no measureable effect on girls behaviour, then it’s a better solution.

If following reintroduction, it finds it is now suspending 10 boys a year, and 10 girls a year, you’d start to wonder if it’s an appropriate solution or not.

Having said that, a lot of the time there is going to be no reason not to make the change for both boys and girls

There’s every reason to make all sanctions available for use with all pupils. Why limit what you can do to help them?

In an ideal world, you wouldn’t have to. But we don’t have an ideal world. There are all sorts of reasons why universal use may not be achieveable or desirable in a school, but gender differentiated use may be. Normally – in fact, virtually always, I would say that is going to because of serious preexisting problems in the school, but if you can’t instantly solve those problems, you have to work within the situation they give you. I’ve outlined before one school here in Melbourne where that is definitely the case – and that’s just the single best example I know of.

Just as every time a boy cries when he’s caned is proof that boys are just as fragile as girls. Every time a girl took a caning well would be proof that we’re just as tough as boys too.

You’ve missed my point – prejudiced people look for the evidence that backs up their prejudices. Prejudiced people ignore any evidence that doesn’t do so.

Because sometimes even an equivalent punishment or a more severe one may be preferred for some special reason. Whenever a student has asked me for an alternative punishment I’ve always been suspicious about what their angle might be. I always wonder if it’s a dodge.

My favourite is the boy who wanted a Saturday detention rather than two strokes of the cane because he hoped it might get him out of a wedding at which he would have to wear Highland dress.

You would know such an attempt couldn’t possibly work so his motive would be irrelevant. However, according to the graph you posted here there is no punishment considered as severe as the cane so it might be difficult to find an equivalent.

“Given an unavourable report for home” would be close enough on that graph, actually.

Yes, we would. We’d have to. Equal opportunitity legislation doesn’t allow us to have a different policy for male and female teachers.

Would you tell a girl with a pony tail to get her hair cut?

No, because she wouldn’t be one of my pupils – at least not primarily.

Would you tell a boy to?

Yes, I would.

Have you considered that boys might misbehave because they resent seeing girls allowed to do as they want with impunity?

Yes. In some cases, that may definitely be the case if that is what is happening in a particular school. It wouldn’t be happening in any school I had anything to do with, though.

Sexist policies are wrong but adding a policy of “hitting boys with sticks” isn’t the cure. At best you replace one injustice with another but, more likely, you add another injustice. The answer is to remove the underlying sexism – not increase it.

The idea is to solve the actual problem. Not allow it to continue because you can’t find a perfect solution.
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Guest
Jan 20, 2011#56
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Doc says

The idea is to solve the actual problem. Not allow it to continue because you can’t find a perfect solution.

OK, so Doc and Jenny are at it again on the sex/ gender issue. I think there is a simple way to clarify the results of their thinking which might draw the lines between their arguments clearly , so lets see:

Heres the problem .

I am the new headmaster of a 1000 student school. For simplicity ( I’ll explain this later) I’ll assume the students are aged 11-15 . For ease we will say there are 500 boys and 500 girls . The setting is co-educational .I’m in a jurisdiction that will allow the cane to be used.

I’m aware of the following data. ( this is taking median figures from three easily available peer reviewed studies in the 1980’s. The figures used are the raw data from field work, not the adjusted and composite final results. ). For 1-15 year olds there is a chance that IN SOME RESPECT 65% of girls caned will exhibit one or more negative reactions from a given extensive list ( psychological, physiological , long and short term) . The figure for boys is 22% on the same basis. Obviously some reactions are serious , some less so, but all demonstrate some level of negative internal /external response. again you could be more sophisticated : the more exposures to the cane the greater the chance of damage for girls, the risk still rises, but less so for boys etc etc.

Now the data does indicate that at 16 and above the incidence of negative effects increases strongly in respect both genders, and the typology of these effects changes substantially. That’s why I’ve excluded that age range. To be fair there is a pretty significant ‘range’ in the results between the studies, and the methodology varied somewhat. Nevertheless the figures are a reasonable ‘ball park’ in my view .You could add more papers and refine them further, but it wouldn’t change the general argument.

On that basis the risk factors appear to be 110 boys might be at risk in a caning regime : 390 would not . For girls 325 would be at some degree of risk : 175 not

Now in my view on those figures there appears absolutely no question in my mind that a gender based caning regime would be a non starter. Some 435 students could stand to be damaged : but 565 would not.

That doesn’t mean to say an argument cannot be made for the cane , but the ‘risk of damage’ is too great for it to be implemented on a crude gender division, for theoretical definitions aside, on the one hand 110 kids put at risk is unacceptable: caning across the board put 435 at risk , obvious even more so.

What we need to do is not argue over grossly imperfect systems , which would in either case would produce some damaged students, rather we must be more sophisticated and select by criteria which eliminate as far as possible that risk. There are a palate of psychological characteristics which unite those who are significantly at risk of damaged from caning. So those who advocate its retention ought to address themselves tio the identification of these characteristics, and the production of simple clear tests which demonstrate the absence or presence of those in individual.

As to those who say its too expensive , I say ‘oh ye of little faith’. Employers commonly use psychological tests even at the lowest levels for the identification of psychological characteristics.. Years ago these were very expensive tests requiring expensive one to one analysis, now they cost a few pounds and are analysed by computer with only borderline candidates needing further consideration . Assuming teachers err on the side of caution, (do no harm!) so borderlines are treated conservatively…..it could be done.

For those who believe the cane is a vital part of the tool-kit of teaching , it is surely incumbent on them to do it !
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Guest
Jan 20, 2011#57
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Done it again !

Line 8

For 1-15 year olds there is a chance that IN SOME RESPECT 65% of girls caned will exhibit one or more negative reactions from a given extensive list ( psychological, physiological , long and short term) . The figure for boys is 22% on the same basis.

Should of course read ‘ For 11-15 year olds’

Shouldn’t do six jobs at once ! But like paying attention in class, sometimes it is boring !!!!

Nev .
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Guest
Jan 20, 2011#58
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
[scroll back up bit . . .]

JENNY: For the first time on this forum you are 100% wrong about something hahah! Sally’s grammar was perfect. She might come over as stuck-up cow but she’s correct in using the accusative case in that sentence, as in “So it’s goodbye from me and it’s goodbye from him” [not ..he”]. Or weren’t you paying attention in English young lady?!

SALLY: Hello, and please trust me when I say that [in my somewhat traditional hometown environment] in the 1970s/1980s boys and girls were spanked, slippered and caned in front of eachother as a matter of routine.

EVERYONE ELSE: Jenny may be selling videos of the occasion when she finds out where I live.

[back to the interesting stuff then . . .]
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JennyBr
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Jan 20, 2011#59
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Garshin

I’ll freely admit English was not strongest subject at school. I’ve mentioned elsewhere on this forum that the head of the science department had to pull a few strings for me to be allowed to take English O Level GCE. Nevertheless, I still believe Sally ought to have used the nominative case. A verb (am) is omitted from the end of “I think that it is the contribution of young vibrant and eloquent women such as me.”, in full it would be “I think that it is the contribution of young vibrant and eloquent women such as I am.” Omitting the verb doesn’t change the case of the pronoun.

In the example you gave, both pronouns are in the accusative case because the “goodbyes” are coming from “me” and “him”.

Consider the difference in the meanings of the following statements –

My husband likes dogs more than me.
My husband likes dogs more than I.

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StevefromSE5
Jan 20, 2011#60
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
As someone who has an A in English A level, trust me when I say Jenny is correct.

Sally isn’t necessarily wrong, but if she claims to have had a private “gels” education, and she still picked up that sort of grammatical usage therein, her English mistress appears to have been as much use as a chocolate fireguard, at least as far as imparting the class-correct use of me or I was concerned.

Both should have been beaten thoroughly with prickly rhubarb stems for mangling the language of Shakespeare.

Steve

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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 20, 2011#61
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Sally said “I think that it is the contribution of young vibrant and eloquent women such as me and your very good self that give this forum relevance and credibility. ”

How about using a singular verb form with a singular subject, then? This so-called “young, vibrant and eloquent woman” is a joke!
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JennyBr
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Jan 20, 2011#62
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi OZGeorge

I don’t recall anyone actually calling me a “tomboy” but it wouldn’t surprise me if some referred to me as such.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>There was in fact a little girl in our class who was an extreme example of this.
She avoided the other girls at playtime, and hung out with the guys.
She had great physical prowess, and could fight and wrestle with the boys and often come off best.
She could take part in our rough games and dish it out and take it with the best.
She played marbles like a pro.
All of this, of course, always means a lot to boys.
So she became an honourary boy with us lads, and was allowed into our games.

The teachers were forever trying to wean this little girl away from us, and get her interested in ‘girly’ pursuits.

It didn’t work however.

I thought she was fun. All the boys did.</div>
That was the type of arrangement I meant when I said genuine gender (not sex) differentiation might be appropriate. She fitted into your group better than she would have fitted in with other, sex typical, girls. Your teachers’ actions highlights what I’ve being saying to Dr Dominum. They insisted on grouping you all by sex, gender was ignored. That’s not “gender differentiation”.

If she were also pushed towards taking an interest in “girly” pursuits, she was being treated less favourably because of her sex – that’s “sex discrimination”.
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OZGeorge
Jan 20, 2011#63
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Interesting observation Jenny.

I believe that you are quite correct in your analysis. I have never really thought about it before like this.

It may explain also the way that boys were treated by the teachers, simply on the basis of them being boys.

Boys were supposed to be mischievious, cheeky, grubby, rough and tumble little toughies.

Most were of course, but not all, and boys differed in thier boyishness.

There were degress of boldness, grubbiness, roughness etc etc.

But teachers, and indeed adults in general, tended to treat boys as if they all came out of the same mould.

It was assumed, that if you gave little boys and inch, they would take a mile.
Boys had to be treated firmly and strictly.

It was an absolute ‘given’ that boys should be beaten.
This was a sine qua non.

As boys, we were conditioned with the idea that ‘boys don’t cry’.
Boys must take their punishments like ‘men’.

At my secondary school, there was a definate atmosphere of staunch,hearty,back-slapping masculinity, and sports were practically worshipped.

Woe betide a boy who ‘slacked’ off at games.
This was certainly approved of by the masters, and given flesh by the prefects.

Among the boys,there was also an almost rabid homophobia, and even if you were not particularly predjudiced against homosexuality,you would move heaven and earth to assure the other boys that you were.

It was somewhat schizophrenic, as I knew quite well that many boys experimented sexually with each other,and sometimes affairs were clandestinely indulged in within the boarding houses.

I think that in many ways one takes in what is expected of one as far as a gender role goes with your mothers’ milk.
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OZGeorge
Jan 20, 2011#64
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Jenny, I think that I may have to back-track a little on my earlier post,and admit rather shame-facedly, that I probably fell into the same gender labelling trap that I was talking about.

I said that boys were more mischievious, cheeky, bold etc than girls were, for the most part.

But on mature reflection, I don’t think that is actually true.

Boys were certainly high-spirited and could consequently get into mischief,but in general, in the classroom, I do not think that boys were all that much worse than girls as far as behaviour went.

I was generally a well behaved and compliant little boy, who got into trouble infrequently, usually by sins of omission rather than commisission.

I didn’t want to be roused on, or given written impositions or spanked, to be sure, but I don’t think that punishment was the main reason that I behaved, or the other boys either.

Yes! As a previous poster chided me, I should have put my brain into gear before writing.

I will endeavour to do so in future!
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JennyBr
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Jan 21, 2011#65
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Doctor Dominum

First, I send my best wishes to you and your wife and hope for her speedy recovery.

Thanks for the link to The Goodies clip, I don’t recall seeing that one before.

I’ve explained why I don’t like the term “gender differentiation” to describe a process of grouping by sex, and, as it’s probably not the term you would have chosen, I presume you’re not too keen on it either. OZGeorge’s post gives an example of what I would infer from the term gender differentiation – and how grouping by sex prevents it. That girl was treated less favourably because of her sex.

OK, perhaps “hides” wasn’t the best word. In the example OZGeorge gave, the discrimination was clear but calling it “differentiation” seeks to excuse the practice.

The problem is not matching learning styles with teaching methods. If two children have the same learning style, they should be taught in the same manner – regardless of their sex. My learning style seems to be what one might call more masculine. If I were grouped with other girls and forced to attend classes where a feminine style of teaching was used, be I should be disadvantaged because of my sex. What’s that other than sex discrimination?

That’s what I’m arguing for. Give them what they need regardless of their sex. Grouping children by sex regardless of their learning styles doesn’t give them what they need. Punishing children according to their sex, regardless of what’s most likely to work with the particular child, doesn’t give them what they need either.

Once children are put into their sex groups, all further division remains within the group. A girls’ school is not going to transfer a girl to a boys’ school no matter how sex atypical she be. At best they might, at extreme expense, provide an approximation of a masculine style education for her.

This isn’t chemistry. Gender neutrality doesn’t require combining the two styles like an acid and a base. Catering for both genders equally gives overall gender neutrality and allows a child to be taught in the manner best suited to him or her regardless of his or her sex.

If only 1 girl in a girls’ school wanted to study electronics, would you provide a workshop and suitably trained teaching staff for her, or would you take the co-educational approach and send her to the adjacent boys’ school for those lessons?

<div style=”margin-left:30px;”>It doesn’t matter what you call it, it amounts to the same thing. You put people into their sex (not gender) groups and there they stay. It becomes the be all and end all.

No, it doesn’t. That hasn’t generally happened in a single school I have seen use these policies in the last twenty years. It may have happened before that.</div>
So are girls moved to boys’ groups when it’s found they have a masculine style of learning, or are they stuck in the girls’ groups?

The question was whether I would have been worse off in a school where girls were exempt from CP, so whether I felt I was being treated fairly is far more relevant than anyone else’s opinion. You might think it perfectly fair for me to be let off no matter how badly behaved I was whilst boys were severely beaten for slightest error, but your opinion would not affect my reaction.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>Consider a coeducational school with 1000 pupils, 500 boys and 500 girls. They poll their students and 450 girls are opposed to corporal punishment while 100 boys are opposed to it. Based on this 55% plurality, they abolish corporal punishment?

Would you consider that fair?</div>
The majority of students wanted it abolished.

Consider a school with 1000 pupils, 500 left handed and 500 right handed. They poll their students and 450 left-handers are opposed to corporal punishment while 100 right-handers are opposed to it. Based on this 55% plurality, they abolish corporal punishment?

Would you consider that fair?

The point is, a school without CP at all can be fair. A school that has introduced an policy of CP for only one sex is very unlikely to be fair.

A no CP for girls policy wouldn’t prevent teachers treating us fairly – they could have given us both a detention. Even if they were under orders to beat boys and give girls detention, I would still hold them in contempt as representatives of the system.

Or until they decide to treat me fairly. I think I know myself well enough to know how I would have reacted to an unfair system like that.

So you introduce CP for both sexes. It won’t affect the well behaved girls because they won’t be punished. If you try non-CP sanctions first, it probably won’t even affect the less well behaved girls because they’ll respond well to those other sanctions. The only girls it will affect are those badly behaved ones for whom nothing else works. The same applies to the boys.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;”>Do you really think it would have had no effect on me if, when my boyfriend and I were caught “out of bounds” together, he had been caned and I let off or given some lesser “punishment”?

No, I don’t think that. But if it was enough of a concern, I could solve it simply by not caning either of you.</div>
Yes, you could solve it like that. What about the next time a mixed sex group is caught misbehaving? And the next…..?

<div style=”margin-left:30px;”>Put yourself in my position. Imagine, at 16, you and your girlfriend had been caught misbehaving together at your instigation. How would you have felt if she had been caned and you let off, or given some minor “punishment”, for being a boy?

Annoyed and irritated. But I would have also felt incredibly annoyed if she was caned just because I was.</div>
She wouldn’t be caned just because you were, she would be caned for her own misbehaviour. If she hadn’t misbehaved, she wouldn’t have been caned.

I didn’t say I would have been driven to rage by not been caned. I would have reacted to our being treated unfairly. If I could be let off, or given a token punishment, for what we’d been caught doing, then so could he. Caning him would just be gratuitous brutality. That is what would have enraged me. I don’t understand why you think such concerted efforts on the part of teachers to cause maximum resentment and discord would be unsuccessful.

As I said, a sexist CP policy could easily have turned me into an out of control hooligan. Luckily my school didn’t have such a policy.

Even if resentment to an unfair policy causes boys’ behaviour to seriously deteriorate?

Silly boy. I love to see a man in a kilt.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;”>Would you tell a girl with a pony tail to get her hair cut?

No, because she wouldn’t be one of my pupils – at least not primarily.</div>
What if she were one of your pupils?

<div style=”margin-left:30px;”>Would you tell a boy to?

Yes, I would.

Here’s the thing – if we were a coeducational school I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t be allowed to. Coeducational schools are not permitted to have separate uniform policies. They can have a “boys uniform” and a “girls uniform” but those are considered statements of intent. You can’t actually enforce them.</div>
So you would discriminate if the law didn’t prohibit it.
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Jan 21, 2011#66
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi prof.n

Was the data from the UK? A factor common to both sexes is that 16 marks the end of compulsory education in the UK. I think that could have a bearing on the incidence of negative effects.

Are the causes of these characteristics known? I just wonder how much is caused by the differences in the ways boys and girls are treated. Even such practices as addressing girls by first name and boys by surname could have some effect.

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Guest
Jan 21, 2011#67
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP AT HALF PAST THREE ON A SCHOOL-NIGHT YOUNG MISS??!!
[sorry Jen, couldn’t resist it]
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JennyBr
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Jan 21, 2011#68
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Garshin

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP AT HALF PAST THREE ON A SCHOOL-NIGHT YOUNG MISS??!!
[sorry Jen, couldn’t resist it] </div>

Finishing my homework, Sir. I might get told off if I don’t do it.

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Guest
Jan 21, 2011#69
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Jenny,

You asked

Was the data from the UK? A factor common to both sexes is that 16 marks the end of compulsory education in the UK. I think that could have a bearing on the incidence of negative effects.

No all the studies are based in the US. I think you will find there are few , if any studies in the UK in the last 30 years at all, which involve school cp .

Now a few points about the studies. Firstly the number and type of ‘adverse’ reactions are very great they range from at the bottom end of the scale ‘rejection and lack of trust in the teacher’s involved in the incident,’ to full blown ‘EIPTSD’. The lowest level of effect will , presumably be transitory, ( although see below) , whilst the serious but infrequent reactions may last for years, or even not emerge for years and require full blown psychiatric intervention. Not all the studies er recorded all categories of course.

The surveys included both normative and abusive corporal punishment ( as defined by the recipients) . 17 % of respondents overall assessed the punishment received abusive .Remember also these percentages refer only to those who received the punishment, the unpunished kids were not included, they are what are know as ‘self selecting ‘ studies.

Obviously some might argue one should only include the serious long term effects, indeed I myself might a few years ago have thought this was reasonable, until you consider what these surveys are intended to show. If a child develops an aversion to a teacher maybe for only a couple of weeks you may think it is of no consequence, but in reality that could mean ( say 1 teaching period a day) ten lost or seriously impaired teaching opportunities. ie 10 hours …this is important if , for example you are making a comparison with ISS, where one of the major problem is the impaired teaching quality during the punishment period.

Secondly it might be said some reactions are irrational. Again this needs consideration. I can think in my own case a very irrational response I had to what I believed to be undeserved minor punishment in primary school. There was a miss D who took me for reading when I think I was six. My reading age was well in advance of the class, and normally once a month each child read an approacher list of words individually to the teacher. In my case my set reading was ‘outside ‘ the school set reading programme, ( called , (isn’t it amazing what you can remember ?) Beacon reading). Anyway I normally read in this exercise the words from the most advanced Beacon lists.Normally all perfectly .That annoyed her. she was that sort of teacher.

On this occasion I stumbled over the word ‘Aborigine ‘,. I mispronounced it , and Miss D make some sarcastic remark . I was stung and as a result I didnt hear her ‘correct ‘ pronunciation. Being somewhat hyperactive, I concentrated on her ‘remark’ rather than the word and repeated it wrongly several times, and was quite worked up. . She told me to sit down and if I got it wrong again she would punish me for insolence. I sat down , I still hadn’t heard her pronunciation, and my original attempt was lodged in my head. So I did it again…..she pulled me across her knee and spanked me in front of the class. I was furious. I didnt react …but most certainly sulked. It was , to me . ….Unfair. That memory lingered. After that I was only in the year and hence this class another three weeks before being accelerated. I deliberately avoided speaking even one word in her teaching periods between then and being moved up. .

There was a tradition when the top class left the school ( four years later!!!! ) they bought each of the teachers a small gift, nothing substantial. My mother purchased the same gift for all . She asked me how many teachers there were . I told her, excluding Miss D. I loathed her from that day onwards and so…… She wasn’t getting one.

A very minor punishment and an irrational reaction to an adult mind. But not to me. Had she taught me long term there would no doubt have been a serious breakdown in communication. So minor isnt always unimportant from the childs perspective . Or in terms of outcome.

We exchanged

No , technically I don’t believe there has been work exists to demonstrate causality ( not that I would think that possible). There is some clear relationship with Jungian typologies, which are the basis for personality traits, like the Mayer Briggs test, particularly as extended by Keirsey. . This produces character types, some are more frequently related to female than males, or vice versa though not in a judgmental sense. Even these distributions change over time and therefore reflect the ideology of the period, norms values and attitudes.

You could, I guess, in theory map these typologies against a population and this derive some idea of temperament, and compare that against the the typologies from those exhibiting adverse reactions. There are, however , certain ethical and methodological problems in attempting this.

The second half of your question is very interesting. Do we for example ‘learn’ and react? Do negative effects occur in individuals as in some form of biologism , or are these responses socially constructed and conditioned? Obviously whilst not excluding the former , I would contend the latter is the main determinant , and indeed that this process of learned responses in an ideological environment impacts on personality itself. So yes even the question of the naming of parts in school plays its role

Any part of the socialization precess with impact upon the outcomes.

Jacques Lacan puts it neatly that we are never ‘forgetful witnesses’, and often are the victims of our victory over biological being which turns us into human child not wolf child, but in that very action binds us inexorably to nature, an ideology which heals ‘ our wounds in the initial fight for survival, only to allow them to open them again in older age’.

This is human culture, and it conceals the undeclared war in humanity , a war in which each son or daughter,is to a greater or lesser extent deformed by the long march from larvae to human child to to subject, where each is recognized as masculine or feminine by gender ascription. A war in which the dead have no memorials, but manifest themselves in psychosis .

This business is no business of the material scientist , it reflects the cultural mores passed on by each mother engraving on each small human animal maternal and social love and hatred in given measure. The specifics of sexuality are to be found in the mechanisms ( to use a Freudian term) of quite another type than those known to the biologist. Sexuality owes homage for its genesis to the sexed human yes,, but finds its exhaustive reality in the culture to which it renders homage for existence itself : Reason, consciousness, history, culture and religion. The domain of love , hate, thought , teaching and learning, and the province of psycho analysis.

In short the boundaries of sexuality and sexual history .

Sorry a long response to two fascinating questions.

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JennyBr
1,776
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Jan 22, 2011#70
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi prof.n

Since starting this reply, I’ve seen your post of 10:35pm. I believe the school leaving age varies between 16 and 18 in the US depending on which state so 16 doesn’t necessarily mark the end of compulsory education there. Acquiring other “adult” rights (driving licence?) at that age might have some bearing though.

Before commenting on your latest reply, I’d like to comment further on your previous post.

If non-CP sanctions are much more effective with girls, fewer girls than boys would be caned so the overall risk changes.

Using an example given by Dr Dominum (here)

From those figures, if 100 girls are caned, then 900 boys would be. From the figures you give, overall 65 girls would suffer negative effects from the experience – but 192 boys would too. The overall risk to boys, as a group, is three times the overall risk to girls as a group. That’s assuming equal levels of misbehaviour among boys and girls but if, as is often claimed, girls are better behaved than boys, the ratio would be considerably greater than 9:1 so proportionally fewer girls would suffer negative effects. If it’s presumed boys will not be harmed by CP, they’re also more likely to suffer repeated exposure so the risk to boys increases.

Dr Dominum said here
If it wouldn’t really worry Dr Dominum, who is concerned about the possibility of causing harm, about caning a boy twenty times, I very much doubt a teacher who is told “It’s OK to cane boys, it won’t harm them” is going to take any care at all.
From your post of 10:35pm

If the recipient considers a punishment abusive, I suspect it would be more likely to have a negative effect than if he or she considers it fair and reasonable. Some children might consider a particular punishment fair whilst other consider the same punishment abusive. The question is why. Do we, perhaps, precondition children to react in a particular way according to their sex? As neilfrommanc said here,

I’m not sure this applies to the US but CP is often used almost as a first resort for boys but only as a last resort for girls. If, as Dr Dominum has said, reserving CP as a last resort reduces it’s effectiveness, this could make it appear to be less effective with girls. Mrs Beale-Buss mentioned another possible factor here –

A child who feels singled out is more likely to react badly than one who is being treated the same as his or her peers. Mrs Beale-Buss also highlighted anther possible factor in her last sentence. A boy might be caned for relatively minor offences but, in many cases, a girl had to really and repeatedly misbehave before she was caned. Dr Dominum has said that, in his school the cane is used as a mid-level sanction but in the girls school it’s used as a high level sanction. This could mean the sample groups are very different in that the girls groups will comprise a higher proportion of girls with serious behavioural problems. Such girls could be more likely to have psychological problems independant of their being caned.

Irrational reactions are still very real. Belonephobia?

Mrs Beale-Buss said (here)
Changing social mores have made CP less acceptable than it was in the past. We expected the cane if we were caught misbehaving but, with CP abolished in UK state schools for over twenty years, today’s children don’t – the whole concept is totally alien to them.

Don’t apologize, I really appreciate your detailed explanations.

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Guest
Jan 22, 2011#71
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Jenny,

You made as couple of really crucial points. So excuse me for reiterating them First as long quote from our exchanges :

I’m aware of the following data. ( this is taking median figures from three easily available peer reviewed studies in the 1980’s. The figures used are the raw data from field work, not the adjusted and composite final results. ). For 11-15 year olds there is a chance that IN SOME RESPECT 65% of girls caned will exhibit one or more negative reactions from a given extensive list ( psychological, physiological , long and short term) . The figure for boys is 22% on the same basis. Obviously some reactions are serious , some less so, but all demonstrate some level of negative internal /external response. again you could be more sophisticated : the more exposures to the cane the greater the chance of damage for girls, the risk still rises, but less so for boys etc etc.

If non-CP sanctions are much more effective with girls, fewer girls than boys would be caned so the overall risk changes.

Using an example given by Dr Dominum (here)
When teachers increasingly moved towards using inductive techniques (in simple terms, we are talking about discipline techniques that try to make a child feel guilty about what they did), these were much more likely to work with girls than boys. If induction works with 90% of girls and only 10% of boys, assuming you have a similar level of misbehaviour among boys and girls (an assumption that actually isn’t true, but is easier for illustration here), a teacher with 20 misbehaving children – 10 girls and 10 boys – is after using induction effectively, going to have 1 girl and 9 boys misbehaving. In the days when the idea was to use non-physical discipline first and then physical discipline if the other methods failed, they might then cane – but they’d be caning nine boys for every girl.

Yes this is an important insight. Remember the investigations we are looking at were self selecting. The ONLY subjects that were investigated were those who had experienced cp . As you say in a given population , fewer girls are likely to have experienced it than boys, so the subset is more limited Because girls tend to received cp in a general population only for more severe misbehaviour on average than boys, this sub set includes only those girls who tend to misbehave at this level, will will include more recidivists etc.

Another issue is there was no investigation of the setting of the punishment . For example. Is there a different reaction when punishment is given in entirely punitive vis a vis supportive environments, ie where a child is allowed to recover from any effects , before being returned to class. Whether they are , in the traditional manner dispatched into the outer darkness as a black sheep , or counselled immediately and welcomed back into ‘society’ as an equal having paid the price . Personally , I doubt that the issue of pain in any way exhausts the question of the psychological effects of cp., nor is it necessarily, in itself, the dominant feature of the sanction .

As to calculating risk in a general population from these figure, those assumption would be based on the use of probability in a systematic manner. In such a social environment this would be mathematically and logically unsound. The claim that such statistics would be systematic and based on sound statistical procedures is therefore unjustified. In a sample of those who have experienced physical punishment there are grounds for saying that more girls than boys will be harmed, as you show extrapolating that to a GENERAL population an give different results, in fact , of course these statistics say nothing of the population who have not undergone this treatment , and cannot be reliably predictive of them , and hence the general population in any way .

You can suggest , as you do relative frequencies in a given population : but that is description based on relative frequency , not a probability. Why? Because relative frequency is extrapolation from an observed number of specific events , ( ie the sum of the experienced events of the sample). Whist this may be substantial in a cumulative sense, it is finite and in reality tiny compared to the totality of such events in the general population

Of course the relative frequency of an event only becomes a probability if calculated cumulatively from an infinite number of events. So in a strict world of systematic empiricism frequency is a probability only if the number of events taken into account is infinite .Thus the strict definition of probability excludes all empirically obtained relative frequencies because it is impossible to obtain or even approach the infinite number of on observations s necessary. Indeed in comparison to this standard all psychological observations are numerically tiny ,. Of course relative frequency is a description : but probability is a calculation.

Add to that the problems identified by Laplace where ‘probability’ is the ratio of the number of favourable cases to the total number of cases , provided the cases are all equally likely. You have ably demonstrated the empirical barriers to this in the sample populations in question . Moreover equal likelihood like probability can only be defined theoretically , as we can never determine it through observation.

Neither the relative frequency interpretation , nor Laplace’s provides a satisfactory basis for the empirical use of probability in general populations in the real social world These interpretations depend on theoretical populations , and the use of the axioms of probability are restricted to non empirical populations .

Dr Dominum said here
While I think it’s a good thing that we don’t have to cane most of them more than one or two times as part of that process, provided we achieved the aim by the time they left it wouldn’t really worry me if we’d caned him twenty times (not that would happen nowadays)..>

If it wouldn’t really worry Dr Dominum, who is concerned about the possibility of causing harm, about caning a boy twenty times, I very much doubt a teacher who is told “It’s OK to cane boys, it won’t harm them” is going to take any care at all.

Yes well of course this shows the weakness of the argument. If caning doesnt work after one or two attempts it is redundant inn respect of its effect on that given boy. If an electric fuse continues to blow you look for the underlying problem ., don’t just use fuse after fuse! Thats why risk rises absolutely with the rising frequency of caning .

Mrs Beale-Buss also highlighted anther possible factor in her last sentence. A boy might be caned for relatively minor offences but, in many cases, a girl had to really and repeatedly misbehave before she was caned. Dr Dominum has said that, in his school the cane is used as a mid-level sanction but in the girls school it’s used as a high level sanction. This could mean the sample groups are very different in that the girls groups will comprise a higher proportion of girls with serious behavioural problems. Such girls could be more likely to have psychological problems independant of their being caned.

Absolutely. Both Mrs BB and doctor Dominum have repeated argued that their school groups are not representative of the school population in general . Therefore it is difficult for them to use statistics drawn from other populations to demonstrate anything.( they can never use them to my mind to ‘prove’ anything of course!!!). As we’ve seen extrapolation from samples to general populations is problematic at any time .

Changing social mores have made CP less acceptable than it was in the past. We expected the cane if we were caught misbehaving but, with CP abolished in UK state schools for over twenty years, today’s children don’t – the whole concept is totally alien to them.

Yes and the effects are therefore more likely to produce alienation . Alienation and anomie are the underlying factors of many of the short term ‘reactions’ seen in the sample populations.

Irrational reactions are still very real. Belonephobia?

Yes and of course one person’s irrationality. ……For example to me when I was caned by Jackie the ‘shame and embarrassment’ was very real , and rational……I respected and liked her and saw that what she was doing was clearly something she found profoundly unpleasant, let alone me !

But to my friends that was irrational. It was just consequences. To them the fact I had been caned was in another sense a badge of having gone through the trial of fire which divided the men from the boys. To another observer not in that cultural milieu that would be irrational too.

I have little doubt that is that caning had been done by certain masters, my reaction would have been hostility , anger and hatred. Probably equally irrational, but as you say very real.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 22, 2011#72
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Mr. Big was once stopped at airport security because the X-ray check showed that he had a bomb in his carry-on luggage.

During the subsequent interrogation, he said “Look, I want to get back to Central Asia, I don’t want to be blown up on the plane. In fact, the probability of there being a bomb on this plane is quite small. But by the multiplication rule, the probability of there being two bombs on the plane is absolutely microscopic. So I reckoned that if I brought my own bomb along, the chance of there being another bomb would be tiny, and I could forget about it!”

And, indeed, it’s very easy to talk rubbish when you’re talking about probability and statistics; many people do. But to deduce from this that you can never make sensible statistical statements (for instance, about aspects of human society), as prof.n appears to be saying, is absolutely wrong, and, in my opinion, intellectually lazy.

First, let’s define some terms. The theory of probability is a branch of pure mathematics; it is an extension of set theory. It was given a rigorous formulation in the 1930s by A. N. Kolmogorov (Grundbegriffe der Wahrscheinlichkeitsrechnung (“Foundations of the Theory of Probability”) (Berlin: Springer, 1933, English translation New York: Chelsea, 1956). The theorems of probability have exactly the same force as those of any other branch of pure mathematics, and are essentially a matter of logic.

Questions about the real world do not usually involve probability theory directly, because the probabilities are the unknown quantities, rather than the known ones. Instead, an applied science is needed: this is the theory of inference. It is often known as statistical inference because it uses statistics: a statistic is simply some summary information (typically numerical) about something.

The science of inference uses, as a tool, the theory of probability. There are two different ways in which it can do this, depending on the way in which “probability” is interpreted. The most common way is as a “long-term relative frequency”. If there is some event which is repeatable (in a real sense), and if, when the event occurs lots of times, a particular property holds some fraction of the time, then we say this is the “probability” of that property holding.

The reason why this definition is useful comes from a result in probability theory called the Law of Large Numbers. This is why (for example) banks can weigh bags of coins to find their value, even though the weight of an individual coin might vary.

(The other, less common, interpretation of probability is as a “degree of rational belief”. This is more contentious, but when the effect of experimental evidence is incorporated by means of Bayes Theorem, this interpretation tends to the frequency interpetation. I’ll ignore this interpretation.)

So, is it really the case that inference is useless in the social sciences? Well, if the concepts being described have no basis in reality (for example, the sort of things that market research questionaires ask about) then — garbage in, garbage out. But not all questions in the social sciences are like that. In particular:

Suppose that you have a well-defined characteristic of individuals, which can be determined on a yes/no basis.

Suppose that you have a sample of the general population which has been obtained by “random selection”. Of course I have to say what I mean by that. The point is that the selection mechanism should have nothing to do with the characteristic being investigated. You could make the selection by picking people from the electoral roll (provided that the population you wanted to investigate was essentially the people of voting age in the areas from which you took the lists of electors). Or there are other methods you could use.

In that case, if you have a sample of a reasonable size, the proportion of the sample having the characteristic in question will give you a very good guide to the proportion of the whole population having that characteristic. The sample doesn’t have to be enormous; a random sample of 1000 will give you a good idea of the proportion for the whole country. The absolute size of the sample is actually more important than the fraction of the whole population which it represents.

Of course if you want absolute accuracy then you need the sample to be the whole population. But absolute accuracy is absolutely unnecessary; you’re usually quite happy with a rough idea. And a statement such as Thus the strict definition of probability excludes all empirically obtained relative frequencies because it is impossible to obtain or even approach the infinite number of observations necessary is gibberish, and simply demonstrates a misunderstanding of the purpose and methodology of statistical inference.

Let me say again: you need to be clear about what you’re doing when you try to use the techniques of inference in the social sciences. Many people fail dismally, and in such cases their results are of no consequence. But if the necessary care is taken, then yes, you can obtain useful information using statistical techniques.

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Willy
Jan 22, 2011#73
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Another Lurer wrote :

“All the evidence from past infestations by this individual suggests that the nearest ‘Sally’ ever got to a ‘very exclusive private girls’ school’, or indeed a girls’ school of any sort was as he walked past the gates!”

A very offensive post.
Could you give us the proof that Sally is a fake and is lying?
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Guest
Jan 22, 2011#74
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
A social theorist replies .

Of course you can make certain very limited statements about very simple statements within any society with a limited degree of confidence. However, Alan Turing the fact remains that the vast bulk of particularly Anglo Saxon social ‘science ‘ ( a word I shudder to use) is dominated by a systematic empiricism which masquerades as a pseudo science producing what it calls scientific knowledge. Most of this so called knowledge is either banal or valueless. The researchers spend time working with small numbers of often self selecting or unrepresentative samples and then extrapolate to whole social populations.

Even radio 4 manages to fill a programme most weeks with examples of this type of work .The ‘lazy’ a researchers are these guys, with surveys, in-depth questionnaires and computers!Of course its an industry. Each book or paper in the field spawns more. . And more …

I make no excuse for siding with the position of the so called ‘logic choppers’ The Willers, Hindess and Hirst , or Cela, for example. Of course a priori by and large the statistical world has rejected , as you do , the argument that we cannot infer from the particular to the general. But methodologically this is not accepted at face value in the vast majority of social scientific fields. Others who maintain this implacable opposition include ethnomethodologists, and most Weberians and many Marxists .

prof.n appears to be saying, is absolutely wrong, and, in my opinion, intellectually lazy.

I won’t bother returning cheap ( or even very expensive ) insults , However, I will refer you to substantial epistemological discord on that very point over the last 50 years ,in Britain the continent and the United States which you entirely ignored in your reply, and with which I assume you are familiar if apparently totally dismissive.

As to yes/no questions and issues , so far as most theorists are concerned , there are virtually no such issues in the social sciences which could be meaningfully expressed in that way . So whilst I wouldnt differ from your derivation on that point , it is unfortunately of little use in the real world of social theory.

‘Gibberish’…I wouldn’t throw that around so quickly …. the words in italics are taken virtually verbatim as quoted by Cela ( a sociologist) from the inaugural address of a new Professor of statistics as I recall in California in the mid 70 ‘s. Mind you , its good to see theres robust debate and disagreement amongst the mathematical community.

However the main sociological founding fathers Durkeheim, Weber, and Marx had rightly no use for this type of social research which I doubt they would have recognized More recently Thomas and Znaniecki, the Lynds, and even the Chicago school have no truck with this type of analysis . Where it has thrived in in the sub fields as I have written elsewhere of the ‘scientific’ schools of psychology.

The agenda is not to describe or predict the social world but to explain it( or maybe as Marx said to change it ?).Empiricism does virtually nothing, in my view to achieve that. Now the BBC tell me there’s a 60% chance of rain tomorrow …..Personally I suspect it either will rain or won’t . but I could be mistaken

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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Jan 22, 2011#75
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif\’);”>Willy said above:

<div style=”margin-left:40px;margin-right:40px;font-style:italic;”>Another Lurer [sic] wrote :

A very offensive post.
Could you give us the proof that Sally is a fake and is lying?</div>
<s>If you think that’s offensive Willy, try this for size</s> No! Naughty Another_Lurker! That’s not the way to behave to a fellow contributor to this estimable Forum! He may be annoying but he’s entitled to ask!

Willy, first have a look at this post in this thread. If you don’t know what it means, ask and someone will explain. Then go back to the last time this idiot was infesting the Forum. You’ll have to sort that out for yourself at the moment, I don’t have time. Read his posts under the multiplicity of names he used then. You’ll recognise it’s the same person as ‘Sally’ etc. because some of the posts are virtually identical word for word. Digest the posts carefully and make an intelligent decision as to whether it’s a man or a woman writing them.</div>

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StevefromSE5
Jan 22, 2011#76
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
WILLY

If you need further convincing, some of us have worked & indeed played with men & women from private schools.

They tend to have impeccable manners, one of the first things they are taught at prep school, and would be unlikely to make the sort of absurd caustic remarks this person makes.

They also don’t tend to broadcast the fact they went to a very exclusive private school. Because their demeanour, even on-line, speaks the fact for them.

Just try reading a post or two by Doc,Prof N & Ketta-completely different people,all privately schooled and all capable of arguing intently amongst themselves, without EVER demeaning the others.

As is Another-Lurker, who also went to one, but there are 3 other proofs for you as well.

Steve
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neilfrommanc
276
2
Jan 22, 2011#77
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
WillY:

Consider this. The forum has relatively few active posters of whom very few are female (unfortunately IMO).

Then, on one morning, we suddenly have FIVE new names appearing within a couple of hour, supposedly Alice/Sally/Mary/Emily and Celia who all express themselves in the same manner. What are the chanhes of this?

Ironically there was another post later that day from a female talking about the tawse at a Catholic girls’ school in Ireland, which may have been genuine but didn’t get any response.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
3
Jan 23, 2011#78
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I’ll give the 8-year-old girl the name Molly that was spanked for talking and then saying she wasn’t. But since all meaning is context derivative I will share some background in an incomprehensible manner that has become my trademark. I was of brown complexion in an all but white Molly black kindergarten class and Molly was very white. The kindergarten that had not yet to be integrated (implemented) by Little Rock Supreme Court ruling children would chant Molly and American Way sitting in a tree. K – I- S – S -I- N – G. They would never chant a black girls name. Either way it was YUK. YUKKY. YUK. Over to the white Catholic (now I’m the second darkest) and called the words, unwisely omitted, IMO, now from Tom Sawyer’s Huck Finn. I’ve already shared my Becky Sharp almost spanked story from my sophomore year geometry compass pint in a girls’ bottom who would have been bent over and hit with a stick at the same time as a boy future principal with the dearth of religious vocations on the horizon.

There was no need to spank Molly in front of the class consisting of 25 boys and 25 girls. She was a small girls that barely fit across the third grade teachers knee palm of the hand until she cried and said she was sorry. She hot hard and long to instill fear in the girls ‘m sure. As I mentioned before, her mother has no recollection of the incident but 50 years ago you were afraid of a second dose if you told. On another occasion, as already told, I ran into the girls room when Molly left crying because the same teacher said her father couldn’t go to heaven. The pastor had a more nuanced way of thinking that saved the day prior to the Second Vatican Council. This her practicing Catholic Mom did remember and more so, I would imagine, that he is now of blessed memory. I’m dying to talk to Molly. Missed her this Christmas family visit.

prof n: What goes on in a child’s mind? Your memory is a two edged sword like mine I imagine. Would you have felt more aggrieved if your pronunciation error was punished by something other than corporal punishment? Did you read about the wrongly paddled child in TWP? How do you undo it was their concern? I’ve had my share of being punished for being above average (something I wasn’t aware of at the time) and still doesnt fully understand. They put up high expectations and actually want to see you fail. In eight grade I was assigned to memorize and recite the Declaration of Independence over night. Her attempt to embarrass me failed for I did it. In my sophomore year I went far in a statewide oratorical interpretation contest reciting Cardinal Newman’s Second Spring by heart, no mean achievement for a 15 year old.

A boy in an all nun run coed school from grade one through twelve narratives is not a common one. It had a Michelangelo effect that sculpted me, but the wisely selected rare Carrara marble, with veins that marred the template of their vision, survived the sledgehammer and like the Pieta, when at its best, can still reveal the mind of the Beholder. The Pieta came to the World Fair in New York in 1965 and it had an impact upon me. Why was Mary not looking like she was 48 I asked? Then I found out that was what made it so original.

I think of the oft-told tale of the oxen and the marble on the cart where the object emerges after that which is not “it” is chiseled away by Michelangelo. The abandoned marble pieces in a trip to Florence in my thirties intrigued my curious mind. What was that suppose to have been? Was the fault in the marble selected or the craftsman? What treasures of mine are held in vessels of clay still unrevealed to others and me? How close am I now and closer will I be to the Divine who knew me before I was me? With these questions be asked of others who had not shared my upbringing.

I’m not sitting in a pity pot a half century later as I’m sure prof n isn’t over the Aborigine word but nonetheless it is etched within. Chisels and not sledgehammers were what was called for. They though I was funny but I was far from a clown. Like Charlie Brown from Charles Schultz’s Peanuts I’m reduced to asking why is everybody picking on me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ9q_zHfbF

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Jan 23, 2011#79
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ9q_zHfbFY

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dominum
1,407
Jan 23, 2011#80
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
A Mathematician:

<i>First, let’s define some terms. The theory of probability is a branch of pure mathematics; it is an extension of set theory. It was given a rigorous formulation in the 1930s by A. N. Kolmogorov (Grundbegriffe der Wahrscheinlichkeitsrechnung (“Foundations of the Theory of Probability”) (Berlin: Springer, 1933, English translation New York: Chelsea, 1956). The theorems of probability have exactly the same force as those of any other branch of pure mathematics, and are essentially a matter of logic.

A Social Theorist:

</i>
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Willy
Jan 23, 2011#81
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Neil, Steve, Another Lurker,
What you are sayng is just conjecture, and not proof by any means. I am not saying that this could not be so. In fact you could as well be the same person since you speak with one voice, but note that I only say “could”. I probably could do the same and post under multiple names, though I wouldn’t bother since I only come on this site occasionally.
The only person/s who can confirm whether what you are saying is true or not are the Administrators of this forum, who would obviously have access to the posters’ locality. I hope they will answer this in a clear manner, without being biased, otherwise their reputation is at stake for allowing posters to offend other posters without drawing their attention at least.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 23, 2011#82
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
prof.n takes issue with my (admittedly rather strident) comments on his position as an “inference denier” in the social sciences.

Now I’m sure I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating: my knowledge of social sciences is as close to zero as makes no difference. But, as Bertrand Russell said, “Mathematics may be defined as the subject where we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true”. My observations are about the structure of arguments, not their content. It seems to be the case that prof.n denies that it is possible, in the social sciences, to make inferences in any meaningful way from particular cases to the general. I assert that, in certain well-defined circumstances, such inferences can indeed be made.

Let me repeat, in different words, what I am saying. I claim that, by looking at characteristics of a sample of individuals, it is possible to say something about those characteristics in the context of the population as a whole.

Of course there are qualifiers to this claim. There’s the question of the type of characteristic. I suggested, as an example, one which could be described by a binary state, yes/no. prof.n observed that there are few such characteristics in the social sciences, and perhaps that’s so; but a binary characteristic is only one example. There might be characteristics where an individual can be allocated to one of several categories; there might be characteristics which could be measured on a scale. All of these are capable of having inferential techniques aplied to them.

The sample also has to be chosen in a way which is independent of the characteristic being investigated. So if, for instance, we’re talking about punishment, then selecting only those who have received punishment certainly does not provide a sample which has been selected independently. But there are always ways of selecting an independent sample, even if putting those ways into practice requires a bit more effort.

After all, what I’m saying can be inverted: if the characteristics of a sample really are quite different from the characteristics of the population as a whole, then the sample can’t have been chosen independently. That’s just a matter of logic; and I don’t imagine anyone would claim that logic has no part to play in the social sciences. The use of inferential techniques is then just a matter of quantifying how accurate the sample information is when applied to the population as a whole.

Let me give you a specific example, of relevance to this Forum, and indeed to this particular thread; it is one I have described before, so I won’t go into too many details. It concerns my claim that there are thousands of English women now in the age-group 45 to 75, and perhaps tens of thousands, who were caned at least once when they were at school. There are some people, including some who post on this Forum, who deny that schoolgirls were ever caned, or that this was exceedingly rare, whereas my claim is that it was moderately common.

I based my claim on the fact that, over the years, I had met three women who had volunteered that they had been caned at school, and that I had no reason to disbelieve them. Now I certainly haven’t met all the women in that age group: I’ve met a sample, perhaps a thousand or so over the period. And this sample is quite independent of the likelihood of receiving corporal punishment at school. In fact many of the women were attending Open Unversity summer schools over a period of a couple of decades, and I really cannot imagine a connection between wanting to study mathematics as an adult student, and the punishment regime at school!

The use of statistical techniques is necessary because I don’t just want to say that, in the jargon, the sample proportion equals the population proportion. And of course my estimate of the sample size is just a guess. But then my result is only intended as a ball-park figure.

And, as I’ve said, the result is of some interest. You might well want to understand society, or even change it; but if you don’t know what’s going on then your chances of doing this aren’t going to be too high.

*****

A couple more things. I made a disparaging comment about the claim “Thus the strict definition of probability excludes all empirically obtained relative frequencies because it is impossible to obtain or even approach the infinite number of observations necessary”. Prof.n then says the words in italics are taken virtually verbatim as quoted by Cela ( a sociologist) from the inaugural address of a new Professor of statistics as I recall in California in the mid 70 ‘s. But what does provenance have to do with it? The words could be carved onto tablets of stone for all the difference it would make; if they don’t make sense then it doesn’t matter who said them.

(Actually, if they’re from the inaugural address of a statistics professor, then I wonder if they were intended as a challenging introduction which would then be explained and modified in the remainder of the lecture? If so, maybe the filter of reported speech latched on to the headline-grabbing quote and ignored the substance!)

Look. Imagine you have a bag containing a thousand smooth glass marbles, 600 blue and 400 red. You put your hand in the bag, scrabble round, and pull out a marble. Then the probability that it’ll be blue is 60%. Actually, of course, either it will be red or it wil be blue, just as tomorrow either it will rain or it won’t. But it makes sense to talk about probability, given the physical structure of the set-up. And what it means is that, if you pull out a marble a hundred times (putting it back each time) then round about sixty times you’ll get a blue one. That is a scientific statement. It’s something you can test. It’s why bookmakers and casino operators make profits. Is “infinite number of observations necessary”? Of course not; the proportion comes from the physics of the set-up, not from the observations. The quote is gibberish.

The relationship with weather forecasting is interesting, too. I don’t actually know what the forecasters do, but I imagine they use the well-established and precise differential equations governing fluid dynamics. There will be uncertainties in the initial data, the measurements of temperature, pressure, wind speed and humidity. And the equations cannot be solved exactly, so there will be further uncertainties consequent on the use of a finite mesh size when the equations are solved numerically. So it’s reasonable to express the answer in terms of a probability: if you went through the procedure on a hundred days with similar initial data, on sixty days the prediction of rain tomorrow would be correct.

And I know prof.n’s comment about the weather was a trivial, throw-away remark, but it does illustrate my point. It’s interesting, but it has nothing to do with estimating a population characteristic from a sample characteristic: the latter involves significance levels or confidence bounds, not probabilities as such. I really do thinkthat prof.n has a blind spot here.
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Jan 23, 2011#83
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……

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hcsj44
1,211
Jan 23, 2011#84
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Sally wrote:

Well as a first time poster I must say that the responses from some very average forms of life are about as useful as a pair of knickers on a kipper. However I respect the fact that this is an open forum and so we must take the bad with the lousy.

It is as obvious as the Golden Gate bridge on a very clear day that some of the so called “experts” have been around since the Earth cooled and have no real knowledge about the education system in the UK post the rule of Mary Queen of Scots. However I am quite sure that the overwhelming majority of forum members are awake to these scam artists and will give them a very wide berth.

… and Willy wrote, of the site moderators: their reputation is at stake for allowing posters to offend other posters

So are you suggesting Sally’s post was not offensive to other posters? I think the moderators do an excellent job here and I think you are wrong to question their impartiality.

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StevefromSE5
Jan 23, 2011#85
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
HCJ

In fairness to Willy, perhaps RA2 can confirm to him that Prof,Doc,A_L & myself are all separate people & posters. It’s not an unfair question, in all honesty, and I’d stand up for his right to be sceptical, even if I think he’s wrong.

Steve
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Willy
Jan 23, 2011#86
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
hcj wrote :
“So are you suggesting Sally’s post was not offensive to other posters? I think the moderators do an excellent job here and I think you are wrong to question their impartiality.”

I don’t think Sally’s post is offensive,or very midly so, and she didn’t name any individual. She is challenging the claim by those here who are claiming to be “experts”, and has a right to her opinion on this. I also take with a pinch of salt the claims by some self-proclaimed experts on this forum. But that is healthy and logical.
About the Administrators I don’t think they are in a capacity to check who is a qualifed expert or not, so they can’t judge on that. However the accusations thrown against Sally, whoever she is, can be checked by them.
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Willy
Jan 23, 2011#87
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
hcj wrote :
“So are you suggesting Sally’s post was not offensive to other posters? I think the moderators do an excellent job here and I think you are wrong to question their impartiality.”

I don’t think Sally’s post is offensive,or very midly so, and she didn’t name any individual. She is challenging the claim by those here who are claiming to be “experts”, and has a right to her opinion on this. I also take with a pinch of salt the claims by some self-proclaimed experts on this forum. But that is healthy and logical.
About the Administrators I don’t think they are in a capacity to check who is a qualifed expert or not, so they can’t judge on that. However the accusations thrown against Sally, whoever she is, can be checked by them.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 23, 2011#88
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Willy:

I would draw to your attention the post at 8:34 am on 17th January by R.G. Tracker:

ALICE/Sally/Mary McGregor/Emily/Celia: That’s enough Fun Posts for today.

I think that provides an adequate comment from the Forum Administration.

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hcsj44
1,211
Jan 23, 2011#89
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
…very average forms of life
…we must take the bad with the lousy
…these scam artists

Well Willy, if you think such phrases – in what is claimed to be only the second post to the forum – are only mildly offensive, then I disagree with you.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Jan 23, 2011#90
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif\’);”>Hi Steve, Neilfrommanc, hcj and Alan Turing. My thanks for your efforts in trying to make Willy see the error of his ways. Having clashed with Willy before I have to say very sadly that none of us is likely to be successful.

Willy visits occasionally, grasps the wrong end of the stick (or cane if you prefer ) and goes off on his own track completely oblivious to what goes on or has in the past gone on in this estimable Forum.
Willy does not understand that R. G. Tracker is a member of the Forum Management.

</li>
Willy does not understand that R. G. Tracker’s post on 17 January in this thread means that ‘Sally’ was just one of several names being used by someone posting from the same IP address in a short time frame.

</li>
Willy does not understand that while it is impossible to determine sex from an IP address, posts under several different names from one IP address all backing each other up mean that at best the individual concerned is being less than respectful to other contributors to the Forum.

</li>
Willy does not understand how to use the Network54 Forum search engine, so he isn’t likely to find the many, many other silly and insulting posts, under names too numerous to list, with which Sally’s originator has plagued the Forum on previous occasions.</li>
Despite these gaps in his knowledge Willy thinks that he is right and we are wrong! Well good luck Willy, I look forward with great interest to your next visit! </div>

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Guest
Jan 23, 2011#91
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
A sociologist replies

Alan Turing wrote

I>but if you don’t know what’s going on then your chances of doing this aren’t going to be too high.

Yes but before we get to ANY understanding in social science , let alone anything we can measure , we need to ask ourselves the question not ‘Is the proof in the pudding we are eating ‘? Rather ‘Which pudding am I actually eating ?

You say youve read little social science….well that was true a long long time ago for both Hindess and the Willers, who came to social science as mathematicians, and then they saw very quickly that their role , was redundant in this sphere , because the axioms on which their ‘science’ was built , just didn’t reasonably correspond with what went on in the social milieu. They then make a sensible choice, and moved instead to develop logical theory within appropriate axioms for social sciences. Read for example ‘Philosophy and Methodology in the social sciences’ Barry Hindess humanities Press New Your : or Willer and Willer ‘systematic empiricism ‘ Prentice Hall , New Jersey.

I’m really rather stuck as to what to say in response to your piece for one simple reason . What you are looking at are internal logics which appear to you to be self evident deductions , but to social science they are anything but self evident . Whilst you can methodologically proceed as you suggest the product at the end of the day is not what you think it is ! Its not even description , and certainly not knowledge ……..Let’s put it this way . What those mathematicians realized once they actually got their hands dirty in the morass of social investigation is that the logic of mathematics is incredibly unsuited to the terrain of social science. Moreover, sociology and some branches of psychology are also unappealing territory for mathematical modeling. The thing is the very motors of the subject, the dynamics of the subject are radically non positivist.

The subject matter of sociology is not simply there to be observed : theory does not proceed from observation. This may appear radical , it would to an empiricist , but as you may be aware Einstein wrote in almost the same terms to Popper. (Popper : the Logic of Scientific Discovery ). Now some empiricist scientists have tried to argue that what Einstein is saying simply that in physics the prediction of observables is not a possible methodology , and therefore statistical inference underlies all scientific generalizations . In fact that is not what he wrote.

…theory cannot be fabricated out of the results of observation, but that it can only be invented Einstein (Letter to Karl Popper op cit p548) .

Now the problem in social science is that observables are not even what they seem. Even language is an ideological mediator : in a conversation you cannot always interpret in context that’s easy, but much of the context , as Piaget reminds us lives in the structures of the language itself.(Piaget ; Psychology and Epistemology Editions Denoel 1970)

With on observables you see appearances…….and the empiricists are just the new alchemists, promising fool’s gold. Sure theyll give you plenty of observed ‘facts’, but they dont process them into theory because they fail to even consider the mechanisms of social production, reproduction, or change. Empiricism is social statics, and cannot lead to any level of meaningful knowledge.

Now the claim you are refuting , and I dont quarrel with your deductions at all, is one that can be far better substantiated from historical and literary sources. For example STOPP achieves ( even just a copy of ‘the last resort’ would suffice) , punishment books of the period, ( generally not available under 30 years) but available to academic research in many cases , even literature search. Your own experiences are valuable as bricolage .

Now our empiricist friends can only think of one kind of numbers , those verified within a mathematical framework, but that is technical number crunching and produces little if any ‘knowledge’ and no ‘theory’.

If sociology is not am empirical discipline as I and many many others maintain , because of the nature of the ideological substrate in society which means you never do have blue or green marbles, only illusions of blue or green marbles as seen through your perception, we completely change the frontiers of knowledge in that subject.

To a mathematician , used to perceiving internal logic in a system this may seem strange, but actually its just redefining the boundaries, and these new boundaries are not reducible.

Whilst this sociology will seem strange to you, doubtless you can see parallels in the work of Steven Toumin on physical reality. Who argues against logical reductionism in the sciences. All I can say is that what we non positivists in sociology do is something similar

I’ve said before a sociologist is a raconteur, a story teller, a bricoleur. We neither look to or for mathematical validation of our work . You might ask yourself if this is ‘gibberish’ why it is that so many mathematicians have crossed the floor and kicked over the traces. The Willers put it as follows

Sociological ‘findings’ are not general knowledge They thus are useless as empiricist or scientific knowledge because they have no application……in fact no matter how many individuals are included in the findings, the finding is only a descriptive particular. .sociological findings are not general knowledge , they are particularistic descriptions that say nothing about other particulars. Findings are at best useless particularistic empirical knowledge ……………Sociological l knowledge is not scientific….the methods of achieving a scientific sociology however, can not include either statistical procedures or scaling methods. Empiricism is not science , and systematic empiricism is not even good empiricism . A scientific sociology implies a completely different method. (Systematic empiricism ; a critique of a pseudo science ,( Prentice Hall) p133) .

To say what sociology is would need a complete course . Let us just say that whilst personally I would not even wish for it to claim to be a science, those who do , use the Hegelian concept, in other words think of how Freud broke ground to create the framework of a science of the unconscious. , or Levi Strauss related anthropology to the science of the concrete…..it uses science in a very different way to the way you probably would. Think of it this way Doc has a PhD in psychology, yet the fellow PhD’s who, for example formed the ‘Critique of anthropology group have nothing in common with him ( in fact they will have B.A. in psychology and their PhD’s will be in the Arts faculty). . They are, however just as much psychologists. Or take the science of psychiatry, what has R.D,. Laing in common with mainstream ECT practitioners? ~One sees the problem as neuro- chemical the other as the essence of man. Both represent strands of psychiatry , strands that hardly converse, let alone share an epistemology or a methodology. I don’t see I can go any further frankly. If you really want to understand it read the Hindess and the Willers book , with Levi Strauss ‘The Savage Mind’ 1962 Librarie Plon Paris, and Foucault ‘The order of things ‘ ( an archeology of the human sciences ) Edited by R. D Laing Tavistock 1970.

Essentially this world is a parallel universe to the natural sciences, with a coherent but mutually exclusive epistemology. That’s why its so frustrating , as the two , a priori don’t interact .

One regular reader who never posts wrote to me today putting all this in one line. Referring to your fist post he said effectively This guy doesn’t see sociology is NOT a science : that’s why you start with a B.A. And don’t study in the science faculty

It’s only a few Americans who wanted it termed a science. ~Thanks for nothing guys!

I suppose that sums it up better than I have done !
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Jan 23, 2011#92
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi OZGeorge

Sorry for the delay in replying. I only saw your post late last night because it had be slotted in before some later posts. If you’ve availed yourself of a log-in, that shouldn’t happen again.

That’s the big problem with grouping by sex. The individual’s characteristics are ignored, only his or her sex is considered relevant. Many teachers simply took the line that boys are badly behaved and need to be beaten; girls are well behaved and need to be treated gently and with respect. Many teachers would give that hypothesis precedence over the known facts of a given situation.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>As boys, we were conditioned with the idea that ‘boys don’t cry’.
Boys must take their punishments like ‘men’.

If boys were upset or hurt,and were crying in anguish, fear, pain or grief,an adult would be sympathetic,but would certainly not be overly demonstrative,and would usually address the situation with a “Pull yourself together and be a man.”</div>
That’s another factor I believe could account for any difference in the way boys and girls react to CP. Boys are required to be brave, girls are allowed, even expected, to show their emotions. Taking my punishment “like a woman” would probably mean breaking down in tears at the first harsh word – just for show to elicit sympathy of course.
January 20 2011, 11:35 PM

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>I said that boys were more mischievious, cheeky, bold etc than girls were, for the most part.

But on mature reflection, I don’t think that is actually true.</div>
The difference is often simply that girls’ misbehaviour is overlooked or tolerated. Dr Dominum and I disagreed on whether Ashleigh Walters was being insolent in this clip. I said, in this post, “I viewed it again too because we clearly interpret her behaviour differently. Perhaps it’s because I’m seeing this from a woman’s point of view. She is definitely arguing and very close to outright insolence. She know what she did and is just trying to make herself look big in front of her friends.” Dr Dominum saw it as less serious than I did. I commented on many of Dr Dominum’s interpretations of the various incidents in that post. It shows how different people view the same behviour differently.

In this clip, Williams holds Scott Peters and Victoria Buxton equally culpable and imposes an additional punishment on Victoria for her insolence. However, later in the clip, note how Gibson says that Scott kissed Victoria when, by Victoria’s own admission, they kissed each other so were equally guilty.

They both, Williams and Gibson, employ the sexist practice of referring to boys by surname and girls by first name. I’m not certain which sex they’re intending to show less respect to or if they’re just trying to create division.

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Willy
Jan 24, 2011#93
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
hcj wrote:

“…very average forms of life
…we must take the bad with the lousy
…these scam artists

Well Willy, if you think such phrases – in what is claimed to be only the second post to the forum – are only mildly offensive, then I disagree with you.”

hcj, I am afraid you are being very biased here, and unfair. Before Sally made that comment she was personally attacked and threatened by Another Lurker on two consecutive posts. I suggest you read his two posts just after her first post which was just her account of her experience at school. So you shouldn’t blame her but the person who provoked her.
What’s more she didn’t refer to anyone in particular, unlike A_L’s post which was a direct attack against her out of the blue.
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Willy
Jan 24, 2011#94
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Anothher lurker said :

>”Hi Steve, Neilfrommanc, hcj and Alan Turing. My thanks for your efforts in trying to make Willy see the error of his ways. Having clashed with Willy before I have to say very sadly that none of us is likely to be successful.”
I am afraid that it is YOU who must see the errors of your ways. Being offensive and intolerant of others’opinions is not very civilized, to say the least.

>”Willy visits occasionally, grasps the wrong end of the stick (or cane if you prefer ) and goes off on his own track completely oblivious to what goes on or has in the past gone on in this estimable Forum.”
Again it is YOU who is grasping the wrong end of the stick, because you are omitting your own threatening post to Sally before she replied.

Willy does not understand that R. G. Tracker is a member of the Forum Management.

>”Willy does not understand that R. G. Tracker’s post on 17 January in this thread means that ‘Sally’ was just one of several names being used by someone posting from the same IP address in a short time frame.”
R.G.Tracker’s post came much later than your original offensive post, so you have no excuses here either.

>”Willy does not understand that while it is impossible to determine sex from an IP address, posts under several different names from one IP address all backing each other up mean that at best the individual concerned is being less than respectful to other contributors to the Forum.”
I do not see how someone can be disrespectful by using different names as long as he/she is consistent and unoffensive.

>”Willy does not understand how to use the Network54 Forum search engine, so he isn’t likely to find the many, many other silly and insulting posts, under names too numerous to list, with which Sally’s originator has plagued the Forum on previous occasions.
Despite these gaps in his knowledge Willy thinks that he is right and we are wrong! Well good luck Willy, I look forward with great interest to your next visit!”
I have proved to you that I am right and you are in the wrong. And could you give an example of an insulting post by this Sally since you are making such a categorical statement? I am not saying that this could not have happened, but I want to see the proof. Of course, being an answer to another provocotaive post, as in the case being discussed here, does not constitute bad behaviour, but would be rather lawful.

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BerenicePro
6
Jan 24, 2011#95
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
From my own experience, Spanish Catholic schools, where the system up to 11 years old, the schools were mixed, so all the CP administered in classrooms, slap in the face and slamming the wooden ruler in the *** or palm of the hand, were administered to boys and girls unconditionally. Logically your presence the punishment except for some teachers who drew you into the hall to manage them in a more private, but not much, as the classroom door was open, privileged few could see what was happening outside, and certainly all hear perfectly.
When she was twelve years the school was mixed but separate facilities, classrooms for children in the east wing and the girls in the west wing and central common units as the secretary, nursing, library the staff room y. .. the offices of the directors, one male for boys (a monk) a lady (not religious) for girls.
Obviously in the classroom the girls could see the other receiving CP., Like the boys in their classrooms. Logically a boy could not see a girl or vice versa.
However, when errors were committed in severity recommended a visit to the school principal, two offices, contiguous, had a row of students, one of girls and other children waiting their turn. In absolute silence is shy and quietly crossed the looks between men and women. Also we used to hear the blows and screams of pain that came out from within, and of course you saw leaving the child or the child crying.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 24, 2011#96
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
you never do have blue or green marbles, only illusions of blue or green marbles as seen through your perception

Well, that’s one quote from prof.n last night. But here’s one from 6:44 pm on 5th July 2009:

Alan Turing

Excellent reply , the modelling was clear as crystal..

Just to emphasise one point. If you compare Alan’s reply today and mine at 3.40 yesterday you will see that the difference between the scientific approach and social philosopher is clear. We don’t disagree on the material issue ( eg the sun rising), or even the chances of that happening, but Alan will take a practical utilitarian approach, because he has to work from the real world I have the liberty to take an absolutist approach for the fun of asking the what if (not) questions?

One interesting point . Our fields can and do actually intersect, or more correctly interplay ,at the very edges, or boundaries of pure mathematics.

If you want to see a pure picture of horror watch students in a university who have opted for an ‘Arts based’ social philosophy programme , or even for many students economic philosophy, when they are told that it will be ‘helpful’ if not ‘essential’ if they can understand calculus …….particularly today with those who don’t continue through A level. …and they often don’t even do that for engineering……biological sciences, and occasionally biochemistry let alone philosophy. Pure mathematics is a basic ‘language’, an essential building block of our society, and we would do well to remember that!.

Incidentally, that second quote was from the thread (now don’t all laugh at once!) “Tawse-proof knickers”. A thread which contained two posts from someone called “Sally”, who supposedly was a first time poster in the present thread just a couple of weeks ago. Willy, please note.
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Guest
Jan 24, 2011#97
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Alan Turing quotes me

One interesting point . Our fields can and do actually intersect, or more correctly interplay ,at the very edges, or boundaries of pure mathematics.

I don’t have a problem with that and nor do I see it as contradictory to my other statements on social theory and philosophy. There are a number of theorists, especially in the English school, whose work cannot be adequately appreciated without a knowledge of pure mathematics. In economic theory even morose. Sraffa , Marx ,Ricardo , Samir Amin . But none of that even means I would use it myself in my approach to the subject , or in my research. That’s no reason to not teach it .

However that is long way from marbles , and is being used a logic in a theoretical demonstration. . Many , me included would argue that most these theorists work in ideological conditions and perception may then not be what it appears, ( Das Kapital which doesn’t claim to be descriptive and Sraffas ‘production of commodities by means of commodities’ are exceptions as each describes a coherent theoretical system , a mode of production, not a real functioning economy and neither made predictions directly from those models)

So yes they should learn pure mathematics, yes it is a basic language. Use it where it it can help to illuminate something, but that’s a long way from social empiricism. Thats where we meet on edges

Antonio Gramsci recommended the working class should be educated first with grammar. Latin and pure mathematics, then they would be protected from being absorbed into the societal culture and ideology before they could think. But he argued against teaching basic bookkeeping and statistics, because that would prepare them for ascribed roles in society .. .

but Alan will take a practical utilitarian approach, because he has to work from the real world I have the liberty to take an absolutist approach for the fun of asking the what if (not) questions?

I take an absolutist stance whereas Alan Turing wants to be a utilitarian ..fine , to me sociology doesnt need utilitarianism or empiricism.

And by the way it didn’t rain !
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 25, 2011#98
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I think it might be worthwhile to backtrack.

This discussion started when I was reading prof.n’s post of 1:35 pm on 22nd January. I’d reached the following paragraph:

Yes, I thought; I agree with that. It’s important, when looking at a sample, to be sure that the selection method is independent of the characteristics being investigated. And the next paragraph, about the setting of the punishment, was entirely unexceptional. But then I read

and my jaw dropped. The next four paragraphs appeared to be talking about mathematics, yet bore no relation to anything I could identify as sense. So I was prompted to respond. I’ve tried to describe what I mean, but I don’t think that prof.n understands what I’m talking about. I genuinely don’t. (And I don’t think that diversionary tactics help, querying the meaning of “blue marbles” when a five-year-old would understand, and so would a judge in a court of law.)

Let’s look at the section of the quote which particularly attracted my ire:

Well, could that quote make sense? If it did, it would invalidate the use of probability in the physical sciences, too. Even in physics it is “impossible to obtain or even approach the infinite number of on observations necessary”. And yet probability is fundamental to physics. Thermodynamics is based on probability. Even more importantly, quantum mechanics is based on probability: the wave function satisfying Schrodinger’s equation is a complex-valued function whose modulus gives the probability of finding the particle in that place at that time. Once you look, of course, either the particle is there, or it isn’t. But before you do, you need to interpret the value given as a probability. I know that Einstein, for one, didn’t like that idea: he famously said that God didn’t play dice with the universe. But if he were alive today, and could look at all the evidence in support of the theory, I bet he’d change his mind.

Incidentally, here’s the next part of the quote: Indeed in comparison to this standard all psychological observations are numerically tiny. Well, I spent many years teaching first-year undergraduates at Oxford. Some of them, fresh from school, thought that big numbers were “closer to infinity” than small numbers. But that’s wrong. It’s not a matter of debate, it’s just wrong. The very definition of infinity is logically equivalent to the assertion that a million is just as far from infinity as two, or ten, or a hundred. So you might have small data sets in social sciences and enormous data sets in physics; but if you’re saying that the first can’t be used in an argument involving probability because it isn’t infinite, then your comment would apply with identical force to the second. And since the second claim is palpably false, so must the first be.

(Let’s be clear about what I’m not saying. I’m sure that the data sets found in social sciences are often too small to give reliable inferences; my point is simply that talking airily about them “not being infinite” is just nonsense.)

OK, let me summarise.

prof.n can write what he likes about social sciences; he’s an expert. I know very little (though I can probably talk sense on economics, a topic which is unlikely to be discussed here.)

He can choose to use mathematical ideas when he writes about social sciences, and I’ll support him if he does so correctly.

He can choose not to use mathematical ideas. There are good reasons why he might not do so; some things, despite the views of certain management gurus, are simply not measurable. I suspect that there are, in fact, more valid uses of mathematical techniques in the social sciences than prof.n would acknowledge; but that’s just a hunch and I could well be wrong.

He has every right to explain why he chooses not to use mathematical ideas.

BUT: when he does so, I would expect his references to mathematics to make sense. They do not. That is my complaint.
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Guest
Jan 25, 2011#99
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Alan Turing writes:

But then I read

and my jaw dropped. The next four paragraphs appeared to be talking about mathematics, yet bore no relation to anything I could identify as sense.

I have referred you to the reference texts where the support for this position can be found. However perhaps it will help if I quote a sizeable chunk from the one of these texts which is used as a standard text on mathematical applications in social science, and you may see from where I draw support for that statement :

Probability in statistical and quantum mechanics does not apply to observable phenomena but to the theoretical constructs (concepts)which are neither based on observation nor definable in terms of observable phenomena Probability is used simply as a theoretical calculative device whilst its theoretical derivations are related abstractively to observable phenomena. The question of the probability of empirical phenomena never arises . Isomorphism is established between a determinative theory and the phenomena to be explained.

If probability is properly understood as a theoretical conception( lengthy footnote quote from Ernst Nigel ‘The structure of science ‘ New York 1961 ) , it is no more a reflection of observable experience than any other theoretical construct used in science. Since it is part of a theoretical calculus it does nothave to be based on facts : it is not intended to be so ……………..

The notion of probability in sociology is consistent with the empiricist belief that scientific knowledge is gained by inference from direct observation of individual facts. This leads to a conception of induction by the enumeration of observables until a level of confidence is reached

The empiricist misinterpretation of science is a result of the empiricist being unable to think in terms other than observables. ……

…..The use of ( these) procedures in social science are logically sound ,it is assumed , because the physical sciences use probability theory ; but the use of probability is logically and mathematically unsound . The claim the method is systematic ( and thus objective) is , therefore justified only by ignorance

Willer and Willer op cit ch 6 .

I think that’s stronger than what I said .

Again Rudolf Carnap :

‘The clam has been advanced that the problem of obtaining relative frequencies for a potentially infinite universe is solved by basing those frequencies on random samples; but random samples are nevertheless samples from finite populations , and since infinite universes are theoretical rather than empirical , it is impossible to take random samples from them . R. Carnap Logical foundations of probability , Chicago p32

Of course Carnap believing the facts themselves to be of major importance resolves hi dilemma by proposing inductive probability , based on facts but resulting in nonfactual probability statements for a hypothesis based on evidence. This probability is then a ‘logical’ idea He elevates probability to a status not epistemologically dependent on the truth or falsity of the facts …..

Bertrand Russell argues from the empiricist point of view that ‘probability’ statements (frequency statements )cannot ever give empirical knowledge , since each observed case is added to the’ known ‘ probability statement and thus the statement can never be true but varies according to a possible infinite regression of cases.(B. Russell, Human Knowledge S&S New York 1948)

Finally Stephen Toumin

‘…little is altered by the introduction of mathematics into the discussion of the probability of events . The numerical discussion of probabilities becomes, no doubt, sophisticated and somewhat complex , but unless a calculus provides a means of estimating how how far propositions are entitled to our trust and belief, it can hardly be called a calculus of probabilities at all, the development of the mathematical theory of probability accordingly leaves the force of out probability statements unchanged

and

no philosopher has yet succeeded in giving a satisfactory logical reduction of theoretical concepts to hard experiential data alone. On the contrary there is increasingly strong reason to think that this cannot be done . (Stephen Toumin ‘ the Uses of Argument Cambridge CUP 1969)

These are a very small sample of a variety of sceptical views which together go to support in social science the type of position I take. There is a very long and growing tradition of ‘doubting ‘ the application of mathematics that most take as received logics. The point is these critiques come together in social science because the material is uniquely unsuitable for this type of treatment but the authors come from a wide range of disciplines, from philosophy to physics and to mathematics itself. I don’t expect you to accept them, but it is a serious area of debate

.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 26, 2011#100
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
That misses my point entirely. I’m talking, not particularly about whether mathematics is appropriate, but about the specific reason adduced in the paragraphs I’ve described which purports to support that view. That reason is nonsensical. Nothing in the above challenges my observation.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Jan 26, 2011#101
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Who on earth is Alan Yuring?

But to return to the point. When I was learning maths at University, we had to prove theorems. The theorems were true; but our proofs might have contained errors (if we weren’t too diligent with our studies). So what every mathematician learns is that the truth of a conclusion does not necessarily imply the validity of an argument which purports to lead to that conclusion.

I have complained about the validity of an argument used by prof.n. In reply, prof.n produces yards ot text in support of the conclusion. But that has no bearing on the validity of the argument.

Perhaps it will help if I am even more specific. The argument makes great play about it not being possible to have an infinite number of observations. So here as a question for prof.n:

Would your argument have been equally stong, in your view, if “a billion” had been substituted for “infinitely many”? If so, can you explain why you refer to infinity, rather than to a large number, such as a billion? (To me, referring to infinity seems like an unwarranted rhetorical device.) Alternatively, if not, can you explain why, precisely, “infinitely many” observations are needed for your argument to hold?

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dominum
1,407
Jan 27, 2011#102
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
First, I send my best wishes to you and your wife and hope for her speedy recovery.

Thank you.

Thanks for the link to The Goodies clip, I don’t recall seeing that one before.

Interestingly, The Goodies are better known in Australia than they are in the UK. In Britain, they were not rerun after the mid 1980s, while in Australia, they kept being rerun over and over and over and over again until well into the 1990s. It’s always been very very popular among boarders – I find it amusing myself, or at least I did the first five or six times I saw each episode.

What George describes isn’t “gender differentiation” in the sense that the term is used by educators. I’m not sure what to call it.

OK, perhaps “hides” wasn’t the best word. In the example OZGeorge gave, the discrimination was clear but calling it “differentiation” seeks to excuse the practice.

No one who knows what the terms means would use the term like that.

Coeducational schools where no form of gender differentiation occurs are much more likely to have policies in place that work better for girls than boys.

Bear with me – I’ll answer your question at the end.

Consider instead if you have a mixed class of say, 10 boys and 10 girls. How is the teacher going to teach that class?

If they target their teaching towards the common learning style of the boys, they will automatically be neglecting the girls. If they target their teaching towards the common learning style of the girls, they will automatically be neglecting the boys.

In a mixed gender class, whenever the teacher tries to direct their teaching to either one sex or the other, they will wind up disadvantaging half the students.

So let’s say, instead the teacher tries to target their teaching ‘down the middle.’ to avoid favouring boys or girls in the class – the ‘gender neutral approach’. Is that any better? No actually, it’s worse – now both the boys and the girls are being neglected. If there’s an hermaphrodite in the class, maybe they are getting what they need.

The point I am making is that Yes a gender differentiated approach may sometimes means an occasional student not getting exactly what they need by the default approach. But failing to gender differentiate education, has a much much higher chance of far more students not getting what they need.

Gender differentiation isn’t perfect – it’s just a great deal better than what it is intended to replace.

Now, to answer your question – whether or not you are sexually discriminated against in the gender differentiated classroom depends on whether or not the teacher individually differentiates education for you where appropriate. This is true in any classroom – if the teacher does not differentiate when needed, some students will always suffer discrimination. But the reason a gender differentiated class works better in this regard, is because more students are already getting what they need by default – it is much more likely a teacher will successfully individually differentiate if they have one child in the class who needs it, instead of five, and it is much more likely that individual differentiation will be successful.

Also, in a school that explicitly gender differentiates, rather than acting like all students are identical, it’s much more likely that teachers will actually be aware of the need to individually differentiate.

Please note – sometimes, with some subjects the differences between male and female learning styles are small enough that gender differentiation isn’t needed – but it still won’t do any harm in those cases. And some schools are better at making coeducation work than others – if a school is already successfully teaching students in a non differentiated environment, it’s insane to change it – if it’s not broken, don’t try and fix it.

But when what is being done currently in a coeducational school isn’t working well, this is a change that makes a huge difference. Gender differentiation isn’t always needed especially in a good school – but when there are problems, it can be a very very effective part of the solution.

It gives them a lot more than acting like their sex doesn’t make a difference.

In the modern world, I wouldn’t rule anything out including individualised transfers. But the fact is, individual differentiation of the type you describe is not expensive at all.

The gender neutral approach is already failing you, because you don’t fit a gender neutral stereotype either.

This isn’t chemistry. Gender neutrality doesn’t require combining the two styles like an acid and a base. wink.gif Catering for both genders equally gives overall gender neutrality and allows a child to be taught in the manner best suited to him or her regardless of his or her sex.

No, it’s not chemistry. It’s educational psychology – I know about both. I know what gender neutrality does in schools. There have been numerous studies, major inquiries, etc.

‘Catering for both genders equally’ rarely works, unless it’s done by a gender differentiated approach. Gender differentiation is actually all about catering for both genders equally – just not in the same room at the same time. It’s when you try to do that, you are likely to wind up failing.

Actually the latter is a gender differentiated approach – not a co-educational approach.

All too often the co-educational approach in the case you describe falls into one of two approaches:

(1) banning the study of electronics because the school can’t tolerate a gender disparity

(2) forcing enough girls to do electronics to even up the numbers – even if this means excluding boys who wanted to do the subject in favour of girls who didn’t.

Not all co-educational schools are this insane – but unfortunately a lot of them are.

So are girls moved to boys’ groups when it’s found they have a masculine style of learning, or are they stuck in the girls’ groups?

In some schools, yes, they are. In others, it’s handled by individualised differentiation.

Not, but your reaction also shouldn’t be a reason to overturn good policy. Otherwise petulant children would be the ones running schools.

The majority of students wanted it abolished.

Yes, and the majority of boys don’t, while the majority of girls do. Unless you think one sex is more important than the other, that should matter.

Would you consider that fair?

No. It’d be just as unfair as doing it based on sex.

But I’d want to know why there was such a dramatic difference – because I’d assume there’s some reason for it.

When it comes to boys and girls, we already know there will sometimes be differences of opinion – and we know why.

The point is, a school without CP at all can be fair. A school that has introduced an policy of CP for only one sex is very unlikely to be fair.

I agree – it was probably an unfair school to start with. What matters is the new solution more fair or less fair than what came before it.

When it’s an improvement do it.

If a school is suspending ten times as many boys as girls, and introducing the cane for boys reduces than to five to one, or three to one, that’s an improvement.

So you introduce CP for both sexes. It won’t affect the well behaved girls because they won’t be punished.

Except that isn’t true in many cases. If it is, fine – but if you are aware that the school in question is almost certainly one where girls would be caned to even up the numbers, that’s different.

Yes, you could solve it like that. What about the next time a mixed sex group is caught misbehaving? And the next…..?

I’d handle them on a case by case basis within policy. If I really believed punishing them differently would cause problems, I wouldn’t punish them differently, which would mean not using corporal punishment in those cases.

Because there isn’t any such effort or any rational reason to assume there would be.

Even if resentment to an unfair policy causes boys’ behaviour to seriously deteriorate?

No, as I have said – not in that situation. But there’s no reason to assume that will be the situation.

Would you tell a girl with a pony tail to get her hair cut?

No, because she wouldn’t be one of my pupils – at least not primarily.

What if she were one of your pupils?

Only if the rules said she shouldn’t have a pony tail – rules that should be based on community standards when it comes to appearance.

Would you tell a boy to?

Yes, I would.

So you would discriminate if the law didn’t prohibit it.

It depends.

Today, probably not. A boy having a ponytail is no longer that big a deal. It’s not likely to get him bashed. It’s not likely to cost him a chance of being employed (in most roles), it’s not likely to backfire on him if he goes for an interview at university. So I can’t see enough of a reason to have a rule against it in a coeducational school.

However if it came to wearing a skirt, that would require a lot more thought. Because that is still likely to have significant negative consequences in our current society and I do think schools have a duty to try and protect students from that. My inclination would still be to allow it in that type of situation, but it’s not as straightfoward.

I’d also have to take into account attitudes of the council, parents, and for that matter the students. And the reputation of the school. When the law says what has to be done, that’s less important.
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Jan 28, 2011#103
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Doctor Dominum

You possibly know that Mary Whitehouse praised the show when it first appeared. That didn’t do them much good here.

Gender is a matter of masculinity/femininity. It doesn’t really matter what we call what happened there, the fact is that her interests were more in line with the boys’ than with other girls’. Differentiation by gender occurred and she joined her gender group. Despite that, her teachers still tried to force her to conform to her sex stereotype.

Grouping by learning styles will achieve better results. Not all member of a sex use the same style so there are not simply male or female styles. The problem is, grouping by sex tends to take precedence over more relevant factors (as shown by OzGeorge) so those who do not fit their sex stereotype remain trapped in an inappropriate system.

Would the teacher even be able to? If her style is feminine, could she easily change to a masculine style for those students who learn better with that style? If there’s another class or school where the teacher has a masculine style, it would be much easier to put me there but that can’t be done because I’m the wrong sex.

If students’ learning styles were matched with teaching styles, far more would be getting what they need by default – leaving the teacher more opportunity to individually differentiate where needed.

I disagree. It’s more likely the presumption will be that sufficient differentiation has already occurred. The argument in favour of single sex education is that girls have one learning style and boys another. That implies no further differentiation is needed.

If a particular punishment is contra-indicated for a particular individual, his or her sex is irrelevant but it tends to override all relevant factors. The practical application a “gender differentiation” was as neilfrommanc said <a href=”http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/message/1261606845/” rel=”nofollow”>here –

</a>
Perhaps “never” is slightly overstating the case but only very slightly. Neil would have been caned because he was a boy; I would have got detention because I was a girl. Even if he were a boy who was likely to suffer serious long term harm by being caned and I a girl likely to suffer similar harm by being forced to serve a detention, that wouldn’t matter – he’s a boy, therefore he needs to be beaten; she’s a girl, therefore she needs to be treated gently. Our individual needs would be ignored because our sex would take precedence.

Individualised transfers to schools for the opposite sex makes a mockery of single sex education. As for individualised differentiation not being expensive, fully equipped engineering workshops don’t come cheap.

How many gender schools were truly and completely gender neutral? By that, I mean no sexist practices whatsoever – none of this “short hair for boys”; addressing boys by surname and girls by first name; giving girls a choice of wearing skirts or trousers but not allowing boys the same choice (whether any boys want to wear skirts is irrelevant); allowing girls to small earrings but not allowing boys to. On top of that, applying the rules equally too.

How is educating a girl in the same manner and in the same class as boys a “gender differentiated” approach – unless you mean “gender” as a term of masculinity/femininity?

Treating children so unfairly that they feel abused is not “good policy”.

Why do you think that is? Could it be because boys and girls a treated differently?

Alternatively, start turning a blind eye to boys’ misbehaviour as often as to girls’ or treat girls’ misbehaviour as seriously as boys’. Either approach will reduce the ratio of suspensions.

If they’re not unfairly suspending girls to even up the numbers, there’s no reason to believe they’d unfairly cane them to do so.

When I’ve asked you how you would have dealt with various incidents, you’ve usually (with one notable exception) came up with a fair solution. Not many teachers would. You’ve said that some would cane girls just to keep the numbers even. We have examples of boys being punished whilst equally guilty girls were let off. I don’t believe teachers are too insensitive to know such actions would cause resentment.

“Likely to get him bashed” is a very bad reason for telling him to cut a pony tail off. It would be far better to deal with the bullies. Being black or Asian is likely to get some children bashed in some areas, do you tell such children to become white?

I take your point and I’m pleased to note that you would try to avoid discriminating. I In a co-educational school, I simply wouldn’t explicitly forbid boys from wearing skirts. Personally, I would specify a uniform but, if I were to, I would have a single uniform simply specifying, inter alia, “[some colour] skirt or trousers”. I’d probably advise any boy who opted to wear a skirt but I wouldn’t prohibit him from doing so. I’d certainly come down very hard indeed on anyone who bullied him because of it.

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FrancaiseEva
67
Jan 31, 2011#104
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
There is too much above here that is complicated for me to translate.

I answer the original question – “Anyone see girls get CP at school?”

Yes, frequently.

I suspect that he really wants to know if boys saw girls !
But my school in France, which was a boarding school, was for girls only.
There was strict discipline, and many rules to obey.
It was expected that we work hard with our lessons, and keep to the rules with our behaviour.

If the schoolwork was not good enough, there were sanctions.
You must do it again correctly.
If you repeat silly mistakes, a reminder on the bottom was normal.

If we did not keep to the rules with our behaviour, we knew the consequences.
The school was very strict that the uniform was correct. One warning only.
You had to stay inside the grounds of the school at certain times.
Although we were allowed to wear our own clothes in the school on some evenings and weekends, we had to wear the uniform if we went outside the school area. It was this which led to many punishments, because teenage girls like to dress themselves in their own way. So sometimes, it was two ‘crimes’, out of uniform and being with a boy !

When a girl was punished, there was a routine.
The punishment was always in front of the class.
So I saw my friends punished; they saw me.
Always the teacher would announce the fault so everyone knows why.
Then you go to the front and bend on the desk of the teacher.
She lifts the skirt on to the back.
Then it is the sting of the martinet across the knickers.
The thin white cotton protects, but does not cover all the side where the tips of the lanières leave marks.
The last two come on the top of the bare thigh.
The red marks from the lanières visible to everyone.

One time, a girl was not wearing the correct knickers. She was sent away to change, then two extra !

If the reason for the punishment was schoolwork which was not good enough, mostly we would think “silly girl”.
If the reason was for not keeping to a rule, we might think that she was unlucky to be discovered, or that she was a daring heroine.
Or I might think that I was lucky not to be discovered doing the same thing.
So our feelings were different when we watched, but always a little excitement.

We also had feelings about the teachers. I think that for one or two, they preferred not to do this much.
But some of the younger ones liked to show their authority often.
We talked in private about one teacher, young and pretty, who used her martinet often and with more force than other teachers.
It was evident on her face that she took pleasure.
We suspected that she herself knew the martinet in the home. We also suspected that she liked girls……
It was often on Friday that she punished someone, so we wondered about her Thursday evenings !

PS The first time I tried to write here it disappeared when I sent it, so I try again.

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Emily
Feb 11, 2011#105
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
It was not uncommon for senior girls to be slippered in front of the class at the very exclusive Scottish woman’s academy that I attended in the early 1980s. You were simply summoned to the front desk had the back of your skirt lifted and would receive either 4 or 6 of the best across the knickers.
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Miss Reality
Feb 12, 2011#106
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Dr Dominion and Eva have about as much credibility as a lecture on posture by Quasimodo.
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dominum
1,407
Feb 20, 2011#107
Hi Doctor Dominum

You possibly know that Mary Whitehouse praised the show when it first appeared. That didn’t do them much good here.

How is educating a girl in the same manner and in the same class as boys a “gender differentiated” approach – unless you mean “gender” as a term of masculinity/femininity?

Treating children so unfairly that they feel abused is not “good policy”.

Why do you think that is? Could it be because boys and girls a treated differently?

Alternatively, start turning a blind eye to boys’ misbehaviour as often as to girls’ or treat girls’ misbehaviour as seriously as boys’. Either approach will reduce the ratio of suspensions.

If they’re not unfairly suspending girls to even up the numbers, there’s no reason to believe they’d unfairly cane them to do so.

Click to expand…
Once again, discussion in multiple threads has defeated me. I sometimes forget which threads I was carrying on a discussion in, and miss replies. I have just found this one again and while I will try to get back to it in more detail later, there was one point I felt I needed to address immediately.

I want to make it absolutely and entirely clear that my comment was not referring to any risk of a boy being bashed at my school. We would not tolerate that type of bullying in any way, shape, or form. Any boy who attacked, physically or verbally another boy for any reason like this would be subject to immediate action to correct that behaviour and to make further occurrences very unlikely.

However we can only do that in our own school environment. We can’t do it everywhere. We do have to face that reality. I wasn’t talking about a boy being bashed at school – I was talking about the risks he faces travelling to and from school – something we can’t do much about.

Until the 1980s, Form I and II boys at this school wore short trousers all year round. The reason that changed was because they were being bullied and beaten up not by our students but by boys from a nearby tech school. It proved ineffective in preventing its boys from bullying ours and for some reason this was the issue that was getting them bullied. So we reluctantly had to change our uniform rules to protect our students. I didn’t really want to do that. Believe me, I would have much rather taken a cane to those boys – unfortunately that was not an option.
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JennyBr
1,776
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Feb 22, 2011#108
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
Hi Doctor Dominum

Thank you for clarifying that point. I did find it hard to believe you would tolerate bullying of any kind in your school. I note you did say your inclination would be to allow a boy to wear a skirt if he wished to so, on school premises, there shouldn’t be a problem.
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Miss Von Soused
Mar 06, 2011#109
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
CP of girls has been banned in most European countries since 1979.
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iankenrick
406
18
Jun 19, 2018#110
yes was an infrequent event but I did see it happen to a girl in infants she got put over the teachers knee was waiting for the teacher too raise her dress but it never happened the teacher smacked her on her dress
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kevinont
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Jun 19, 2018#111
never saw any formal spankings of a girl at school, only at home
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Carlos
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Jun 19, 2018#112
I did Kevin, I had a primary school teacher who spanked both boys and girls at the front of the class. As I have said in another post it was probably a split of about 80% to 20% of boys being spanked.
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kevinont
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Jun 20, 2018#113
Carlos, any spankings were always done in privacy of office area usually, just was not common at all for anything formal to be done in the classroom. What ages did you last see a girl spanked? I cant imagine it would have been when they were older.
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Carlos
40
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Jun 20, 2018#114
Kevin, I would say it was probably when I was about six or seven. Never saw or heard of any girls getting corporal punishment at secondary school.
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kevinont
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Jun 20, 2018#115
Carlos wrote:
Kevin, I would say it was probably when I was about six or seven. Never saw or heard of any girls getting corporal punishment at secondary school.
ok thanks, i could not imagine seeing a girl spanked at school if you were older! That would be awkward in the very least.
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WWT
Jun 21, 2018#116
I only once saw a girl caned and I’ve previously written a full account of the incident. It would seem however, that girls receiving CP in my secondary school was not as rare as I thought. First hand reports have appeared on the Thomas Calton School Register Facebook forum naming teachers who administered CP to female scholars. Miss Ham, the P.E. teacher apparently smacked girls on the bottom if they were lagging behind in cross country running and Miss Batchelor, the science teacher used the slipper on more than one occasion. I have every reason to believe that these recollections of their schooldays by former pupils are genuine.
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Lisabest
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Jun 25, 2018#117
Both sexes were subject to corporal punishment at the senior school I attended. The cane being the impliment used. All corporal punishments were admuinistered by the headmaster or head of year and always in private
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kevinont
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Jun 25, 2018#118
Hi Lisabest,

I’m sure you posted some wheres here but did you ever get caned in senior school?
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Another_Lurker
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Jun 26, 2018#119
Hello kevinont,

You said above to Lisa:
I’m sure you posted some wheres here but did you ever get caned in senior school?
Lisa is of course a very busy person and the affairs of her fashion empire involve her in extensive transatlantic travel. As I recently ‘volunteered’ her to respond to a new contributor which involved her in some extra effort here I feel that I should perhaps make amends by giving you some initial links which may assist with your query.

Lisa was indeed caned at secondary school, 5 times I understand, as she summarises here. She gave a detailed description of the MO of canings at the school in 3 contributions here, here and here.

In the latter item Lisa gives the interesting information that at her school members of staff administering the cane always wore an academic gown, a very traditional practice apparently followed at some schools, but one which may possibly have slightly detracted from caning efficiency. Lisa also notes that some female staff caned and punished both girls and boys. I am not clear as to whether any of Lisa’s canings were administered by female staff. If they were it would be most instructive to know whether lady teachers wearing removed them before wielding the cane, an aid to stability mentioned here by a former contributor who was caned by a female deputy head at his English public school.

Lisa has an extensive thread on caning, Should we bring back the cane?
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kevinont
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Jun 26, 2018#120
Another_Lurker:

Thanks for the effert to respond to my question ( someday i will get through every thread on a rainy day!) and for putting the links so i could navigate and read them. Much appreciated for sure!

Found it interesting that Lisa said she still had red marks up to 3 days after but did not think the caning was severe. Over the skirt i thought it would give some protection, but i was wrong after reading her posts and others.

Ill read more…but still glad this Canuck did not have the cane in school over here!!

Also thanks to Lisa for sharing.
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Another_Lurker
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Jun 26, 2018#121
Hello kevinont,

Good luck with reading all the threads here, there’s only 3378 of ’em, containing 68149 contributions as of now. Rather more than 1 rainy day’s worth I suspect!

You wrote:
Found it interesting that Lisa said she still had red marks up to 3 days after but did not think the caning was severe. Over the skirt i thought it would give some protection, but i was wrong after reading her posts and others.
I am no expert, but my impression is that for a senior school caning marks lasting up to three days would probably indicate that, as Lisa said, the punishment was not severe. Our caning experts would be able to comment with far more authority and clearly much depends on individual reaction to punishment. However my impression from many reports is that for ‘six of the best’ over normal school uniform a week to 10 days or longer might not be exceptional, with the marks passing through a variety of stages before disappearing.

The cane is apparently not much impeded in its painful effects by normal clothing. I have even seen it argued that the occasional practice in some schools of administering an exemplary caning over a single layer of clothing, PE kit or underwear, or even on the bare, owed any significantly increased punitive effect more to anticipatory apprehension on the part of the recipient rather than to actual increase in the pain thereof.

I have to say though that if faced with the actual event I would certainly have had some difficulty in accepting what was probably entirely well intentioned advice to be caned on the bare if possible, once given to me by someone I believe knew what they were talking about. Their argument was that seeing the developing damage would cause the caner to subconsciously stay their hand whereas no such inhibition was felt when the target area was obscured by clothing.
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Lisabest
90
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Jun 26, 2018#122
My thanks to A.L. for his information regarding my threads and for directing kevinont to them I look forward to hearing his views on the subject.

If I may could I clear up a point regarding female staff at my school. Only heads of year and the headmaster used corporal punishment. There was while I was there only one female head of year and she did use the cane as I recall but, I never received this form of punishment from her only male heads of year and my headmaster. I can’t honestly recall anyone mentioning if she removed her shoes to administer the punishment. I very much doubt she did.
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kevinont
195
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Jun 26, 2018#123
Another_Lurker wrote:
Hello kevinont,

Good luck with reading all the threads here, there’s only 3378 of ’em, containing 68149 contributions as of now. Rather more than 1 rainy day’s worth I suspect!
hmmm ok ….ill wait for some snowy weather and im snowed in for a few days to get started!!
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Jun 26, 2018#124
Lisabest wrote:
My thanks to A.L. for his information regarding my threads and for directing kevinont to them I look forward to hearing his views on the subject.
Were you use to the caning also, so that maybe it did not seem like a big deal? Were the other children respectful or did they even know you got caned? I guess they might have seen marks in gym class or something.

I really can not compare what i got to your cane, a strap/belt over clothes might leave a mark but not for long and certainly not for 3 days. I too would have welts and marks that could last for more then a day but that was over underwear or bare and at home.

I think the uk schools were a lot more severe in their punishments at school from what im reading here. Ill keep reading!
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jun 27, 2018#125
Those and the !
Hello Lisa,

And thank you for the clarification regarding the female head of year and whether she removed her high heels when caning, if indeed she wore them.

As I am mainly here for the technical computer aspects I am of course only on the fringes of our ‘earnest seekers after the truth’ community. Nonetheless I do share some of their obsession with academic interest in the appearance and punishment related practices of female caners, especially when dealing with schoolboys.

Thus I was intrigued with the description by a former contributor, alas no longer with us in both senses of that phrase, of how the deputy headmistress of his English public school (ie for those outwith the UK most definitely not public in the usual sense of that word) kicked off her high heels before caning him. This had clearly made somewhat of an impression on him and he mentioned it on no less than three occasions, for instance here.
The lady concerned, possessed of ‘piercing blue eyes, and a magnificent head of red/auburn hair’, was on secondment from the associated girls’ school, the mother of his then girlfriend, the leader of a country rock band in which he played and a personal friend. Oh, and he was on the school’s ‘no cane’ list at the time! In other posts he mentioned that pupils at both the boys’ and girls’ schools had remarked on the high heeled shoes removal after being caned by her.

I was consumed by jealousy as for the life of me I couldn’t recall whether Miss B had been wearing or had removed her high heels before administering my smacked leg. Probably not though, not quite the sort of thing a lady teacher would have worn to school in a midlands mining town in the late 1940s!
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dane
405
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Jun 27, 2018#126
that headmistress seemed to have an amazing array of virtues and talents, she was not only an assistant headmistress in a foreign land while raising her daughter she was also in a rock band and could argue circles around any stopp advocate… i think she may also have been a neurosurgeon, a secret agent and a dominatrix… certainly the total package… sorta like buckaroo banzai
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hcj44
228
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Jun 27, 2018#127
dane, I was once heavily criticised for voicing my doubts. I agree that much of it is beyond belief. As A_L writes, the man is no longer on this earth, so we will never know the truth.
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sc545474
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Jun 28, 2018#128
The only occasions i witnessed girls receiving C.P was in primary/junior school,we had female teachers and a headmaster,the girls received exactly the same as the boys,over the knee hand spankings,there were more boys who received it than girls which is normal,the headmaster only punished the boys for serious offences administered in the same way as the female teachers,but a lot more painful as i learned from the three times i was bent over his knee.????
Secondary school no chance of seeing girls whacked that was boys only. I have never seen a girl corporally punished by a man,although my father did threaten to take my sister over his knee once ,i would have loved to have watched that????
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Lisabest
90
10
Jun 28, 2018#129
Female teachers removing heels to cane someone seems a little far fetched to me. Sounds very sadistic although from some of the stories I’ve encountered on here I wouldn’t be that surprised if this kind of activity was in some way true.
Lisa
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IbizanHound
42
Jun 29, 2018#130
I would be very surprised if a female took off her high heels to administer cp, if she is wearing heels at school she is no doubt capable of standing and walking in them even over uneven ground, maybe having a little trot if the need arises. She would be capable of climbing stairs, stooping down to reach something off the floor, stretching to reach something off a shelf, carrying and balancing an armful of books. She may go shopping at lunchtime or after work, she will after driving to the shop (while wearing her heels) collect a basket which will get heavier and heavier as she starts to wish she`d got a trolley after all, but she will balance the basket without the need to remove her heels, likewise she will carry her shopping back to her car without having to go barefoot. She will probably at some point in her life have picked up and carried a baby or toddler, she will have attended a function where she has had to walk on grass, gravel or very plush carpet, she will have negotiated steep steps and inclines, she will almost certainly have danced and probably drank a little to much all wearing her high heels. She may have climbed onto the back of a motorbike in her heels (NOT recommended but can be done in heels) or she may have had to stop and herd a horse off the road and back into his field.

Wearing high heels maybe not be comfortable, they play havoc with your feet and are not good for your health but they don`t necessarily restrict everyday life, especially if worn to work. Wearers just naturally adjust how they stand or walk to stay stable, it would hardly look good if every time they needed to push open a heavy door they collapsed in a heap because of lost stability! The idea a teacher might feel she can`t administer a decent caning because of her heels seems extremely odd to me. Now admittedly I have never ever caned anyone while wearing high heels but I bet I could without feeling to take them off to aid stability!

Maybe the teacher of the poster now sadly passed away, couldn`t wear high heel, despite her many virtues and talents mastering the art of wearing high heels just wasn`t one of them, oh well can`t be good at everything I suppose! She almost certainly would not have removed them as a ritual, no women removes high heels to give themselves more authority. If and its unlikely in my opinion, female teachers removed their heels before caning a pupil it was because they didn`t feel comfortable in them but thought they`d best wear them anyway, they would in that case discretely change into flat shoes, they would not be kicking off their shoes in front of the miscreant, even though the said miscreant may not know or care the lady about to inflict pain upon them isn`t able to handle a pair of heels the female herself knows and that’s enough, she ain`t going to broadcast it!

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larry1951
2,292
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Jun 29, 2018#131
Readers should be aware that the writer of the above message is our highly-valued member, jd 19.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jun 30, 2018#132
Yet more on those and the !
Hello jd 19,

And what a very great pleasure it is to see a post from you. Can it really be the first since March this year or am I inexcusably overlooking something? Anyway, great to see you back.

You make some excellent points regarding the question of female teachers removing high heels to administer corporal punishment and how unlikely this is. Quite so. In fact in a thread I’ve unearthed while seeking to write the definitive Forum guide to the subject, which may possibly get posted later, our sadly now departed former contributor whose experience in receipt of the cane I linked earlier in the thread says that when he’s mentioned this in the past (the implication seems to be outwith the Forum) comments were made as to the unusual nature of such a CP routine. As hcj noted earlier, we shall never know the truth of the matter.

Of course in most flagellatory fiction quite the opposite situation pertains and the heels remain firmly in place. In another thread there were recently linked some of the writings of contributor Dot/Dorothy who observed of being caned by her housemistress, bent over a chair, that:

You were then told to put your head down and look at the seat. You would hear the sound of her heels as she walked behind you. She would lift your gymslip and tuck the hem into your house sash. She would then pull your knickers up tight making sure there were no creases. You would then hear her walk back to the desk and hear the cane being taken up from the desk. No matter how many times you had been caned your heart was pumping hard. You then heard the click clack of her heels as she got herself into position.

In one short paragraph no less than two actual and one implied references to the housemistress’s wearing of heels to conduct the punishment. And quite right too! Sadly I never had a housemistress at school, nor for that matter was I ever caned. But just suppose, had those two contingencies calamitously collided and I had found myself bent over a chair staring fixedly at the rather boring looking seat thereof, first undergoing whatever might be the male equivalent of the gymslip, house sash and crease removal thingy and then anxiously awaiting the impact of the cane?

I have given the matter prolonged and profound consideration. After due reflection I am completely convinced that auditory affirmation that the housemistress was correctly attired as regards footwear, in a manner befitting the dignity of her office and the due formality of the proceedings, would have been for me of the very essence of the experience!
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Stuartsummers
56
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Aug 08, 2018#133
At my english boys prep school there a few girls who attended ( children of teachers and staff, and some local girls) but not many – only two girl in my class. Girls were never given corporal punishment it was only for boys. They enjoyed teasing the boys who got spanked. At home my father only spanked me and my brother never my sister.
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WWT
Aug 18, 2018#134
In his recent post in another thread, Paul has pointed out that accounts on this forum of schoolgirls being spanked or caned have often been condemned as works of fantasy and some rightly so. So in this instance I am not only identifying the school, the teacher and the recipient but also providing a photograph as back-up (and possibly circumstantial) evidence. I thrust that I’m not infringing any copyright by providing a link.

I found this picture in a back issue of a London ONLINE NEWSPAPER and I’m almost certain that the female in the photo is the girl I saw caned at my senior school in South London back in the early 60’s. She’s pictured with her husband who went on to become a guitarist in a leading British rock band. The picture shows the couple in the humble surroundings in which they lived prior to the group’s first hit single. It might be just coincidence that the girl in the picture has the same first name and had the same maiden name as the girl I knew at school. They are both quite common British names. The caption to the picture giving the location and date that the photograph was taken do however, appear to support my assertion. The date suggests that the girl and I are about the same age and the location in East Dulwich was certainly in the school catchment area for Thomas Calton Secondary School. So there was every chance that she and I would end up in the same class. She also bears a remarkable resemblance to the girl I remember but that might be my memory playing tricks on me after almost 60 years.

As mentioned in my post above and according to reports appearing elsewhere on this forum and other Internet sites. it would appear that the spanking/caning of girls at my senior school was far more common than we boys believed. It seems that that those punishments were generally handed out by female teachers and that boys were not allowed to be present. Boys on the other hand were often punished by male teachers with girls looking on which seems illogical. So it was a rare event indeed when Mr. Gabriel, the maths master caned a girl on the bottom, in front of the whole class. It certainly had a profound and lasting effect on at least one of the impressionable teenagers looking on in disbelief.
tumblr_inline_noih0wTmEC1reu5wk_500.jpg (68.94KiB)
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WWT
Aug 18, 2018#135
Here’s the link the to the online newspaper:

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WWT
Aug 18, 2018#136
In the third line of my post above the word should be ‘trust’ not ‘thrust’. Finger trouble or Freudian slip? I’ll let the reader decide.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 19, 2018#137
Hello Richard,

Most interesting posts from you above.

An informative page here on the Camberwell Borough Council site would seem to indicate that at the time of the photograph you link your former schoolmate and her husband and baby were living with her Mum at 200 Underhill Road. Scroll down slightly and the first relevant text is near the top of the page, just under the picture of the car.

Search the page for rossi. The first reference is in the section you’ve just been reading but the second and subsequent instances much lower down the page (nearly half way down) lead to more relevant detail. In addition the picture you link is reproduced again, with interesting detail about prefabs. Sorry about the vague directions but the page concerned has no page anchors to ease navigation.

You said of the Underhill Road prefabs:
The picture shows the couple in the humble surroundings in which they lived prior to the group’s first hit single.
Life can’t have been easy with 4 adults and a baby in a prefab. Curiously though in my neck of the woods properties in groups of prefabs which have survived and been given modern thermal cladding are much in demand by the elderly as they are very easy to maintain and often have very stable long standing neighbourhood communities.

Your account of her caning seems to indicate that your schoolmate was a spirited and determined girl so it is perhaps no surprise that she landed a husband who became a top rock musician. The group must indeed be quite well known as I seem to recall their name and the sum total of my knowledge of popular music could be inscribed on the back of a very small postage stamp with a felt tip marker pen. Your original post on the caning, from the very early days of this Forum, is to be found here.

An unusual sighting I think. I don’t recall many males posting with credible sounding claims to have seen female schoolmates being caned on the bottom while at school. There was a very credible (at least in my opinion) one where the boy not only observed the girl (his partner in crime) caned on the bare by the headmaster but was caned on the bare himself at the same time. However that was in the 1950s at a small private boarding school and if I recall correctly they were only 12. I haven’t got time now but if there are any requests I’ll try to locate it.

You say:
As mentioned in my post above and according to reports appearing elsewhere on this forum and other Internet sites. it would appear that the spanking/caning of girls at my senior school was far more common than we boys believed.
I have come gradually to believe that rather more girls were subjected to the more severe forms of SCP than many males, and indeed females think. Until quite recently the occasional contributor was still adamant that it was against the law (or at least some mythical nationally instituted LEA provision) for girls to have been subjected to SCP at all. Equally there have been excellent posts explaining the common misconception about numbers of girls caned, slippered and strapped and why it arose.

There is even a post with details of government compiled statistics on the surprisingly high number of girls nationally who were subjected to SCP in state schools in a particular period and how they were punished. Back in the 1950s (or was it the 1940s) but nonetheless data from an official report. I encountered it not long ago when looking for something else and in haste omitted to note the thread. There’s a good summary post to be compiled on the subject, if only ………….

Linked from the ‘prefabs’ page mentioned above is a page on Heber Road & Thomas Calton Schools here. If you are not familiar with the page some of the stuff on Thomas Calton may be of interest. There is a picture here of some Thomas Calton girls in 1961. Perhaps reminiscent of your schoolmate at the time she opted to bend over for the cane rather than accept a writing punishment.

I did a very cursory scan for the SCP usual suspects in respect of Thomas Calton. The only thing which came up was a reference to Bill Keenan who sometimes slippered boys in PE. Page search for slipper and you’ll find it. In conjunction with this is a reference to Win Ham who taught PE to girls and was ‘a real dragon’. Any chance that was the lady you saw wielding the rounders bat?
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marathon8
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Aug 19, 2018#138
Hello, Richard,
Its Paul:
Thank you for sharing this excellent memory with us
The Band is Status Quo. YEP! Their first hit was in 1967. ‘Pictures of Matchstick Men,’ I still regarded it as their best.
I quickly looked through my FR files as somewhere in the pile there are some refs about Thomas Calton. But finding it is tough!!! LOL
Like A.L, and a great contribution from him, too, i saw the reference to Win Ham.
Again, I thank you, Richard.
Best wishes,
Paul

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six of the best
1,115
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Aug 19, 2018#139
As I went to a boys grammar school and had no sisters the opportunity of seeing or hearing girls taking corporal punishment was non existent. However there was an adjoining girls grammar school to mine. It was linked by some shared accommodation. The girls were in what was the original school with a 1950s ‘new build’ for us boys. Between the two schools was a large rather fine assembly hall and a new dining hall with school kitchens. it also housed all the admin offices of both schools. This included the headmaster’s and headmistress’s offices with their associated secretaries’ offices. We had the cane and slipper and vaguely knew that girls could get their hands caned for ‘serious offences’. I remember going, for some reason, to our secretary’s office one day and saw a rather upset girl leaving the headmistress’s office. It seemed very likely that she’d just had her hands caned.

When I was in the fifth form a girl I knew had the cane for being caught in ‘smoker’s corner’ in the girl’s playground. Although she wasn’t smoking herself she was still caned with the other girls. She was a prefect and saw the headmistress as almost a friend but this didn’t save her hands. I’m not sure the actual caning was that bad. She was more concerned at what her parents would think as they were beginning to see her as a young adult. She was also worried that her parents might reintroduce the slipper at home again. She was the only girl I knew who talked freely of things like this back then.
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WWT
Aug 19, 2018#140
Hello again A_L. It was on that Camberwell Borough Council site that I found the reference to Francis Rossi’s girlfriend identifying her by her maiden name. On ANOTHER PAGE you’ll see a couple of posts from me and in one of them I’m querying with the author whether he happened to know if she went to Thomas Calton. Unfortunately he was unable to confirm that. And yes, it was indeed the fearsome Miss Ham who I saw use that rounders bat to whack those misbehaving schoolgirls on the bottom. You also mention Bill “slipper” Keenan which is how one ex-Thomas Calton pupil referred to him on the FR site. He was the teacher who administered the only bare bottom spanking I witnessed during my schooldays. I’ve given an account of the incident elsewhere on this forum and at the time I thought it was a harsh punishment for a fairly minor offence. The boy was punished for wearing track suit pants instead of the standard white shorts. The teacher obviously thought that he would make the punishment fit the crime by making the boy lower both the track suit pants and his underpants which he also shouldn’t have been wearing.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 19, 2018#141
Hello Richard,

Ah, I did wonder if that was where you’d found the maiden name as I couldn’t see a mention of it in any of the links you gave which all seemed to lead to that weird set-up on Tumblr. However as you hadn’t mentioned the’ Borough Council’ site I though I’d best stick it in.

My money says you’ve got the right girl. A pity though that you didn’t mention that you thought you might have seen her caned in your query on the page of the ‘Borough Council’ site that you mention in your contribution immediately above. Pretty girl + cane = guaranteed attention getter! I bet you’d have got lots more responses and perhaps a definitive answer. Of course it might also have brought you a ‘cease and desist, our client absolutely denies’ letter! You folks from that part of the world do seem to like to stay in touch with home, and who knows ………..????
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Lisabest
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Mar 06, 2019#142
I know I was caned several times at school in my teens. Canings were always administered in private by the headmaster, his deputy or a head of year. There was no discrimination between the sexes. However I never wittnessed anyone actually being caned. My own experiencesare well documented within this forum.
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Another_Lurker
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Mar 06, 2019#143
Hello Lisa,

We have of course gained several new members since the last time you posted on your canings. Not only will they probably not have seen your accounts but some of them will undoubtedly be dubious as to whether girls were ever caned on the bottom, though it is of course worth emphasising that you were at a private school.

As you note your canings have been documented in various places here and the following links may be helpful to anyone who would like to open discussion about them with you.

Your entry in the corporal punishment survey, which in essence documents your last caning, is to be found here. Regrettably it is preceded by a vast quote inserted by the Network54 to Tapatalk conversion process.

Your comments on the detailed conduct and ritual of canings at your school are to be found here.

Your answers to queries raised on that last linked post are to be found here and here.

I hope the above links will be of some assistance to you. If so please accept them as partial recompense for those jokes about policewoman outfit, bottle green gymslip, head prefect badge and associated punitive implements over in the football thread. ???? I am hoping your contribution will bring us something from Paul who has not posted for some time, though he appears to have visited three days ago.

You said above:
There was no discrimination between the sexes. However I never wittnessed anyone actually being caned.
Although I have no personal experience, as a severe and often fairly formal punishment the cane does seem quite often to have been administered with only one recipient present, although there might be one or more witnesses in addition to the wielder of the cane. However canings in front of the school, in front of the class, or with multiple recipients present certainly occurred and there are what appear to be reliable accounts in this Forum.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Mar 07, 2019#144
The nuns were not into the new math. It was a foot on the hand and a yard on the bum. In my class fourth grade girls were better behaved, docile, or sneakier and were hit once or a few time a week where boys got the ruler much more frequently. A few boys acted like Nancys and cried and went girly. Girls never cried. You figure. ????

Girls played jacks off by themselves and skipped rope. The boys played a game called release. You set up a corner that students that were tagged became prisoners. You then you tried to run through the guards to touch a captive and yell release setting captives free. How can you play a game like that and not get the nails dirty?

One third grade girls was took over the knee in front of the entire class. She was a talker and a giggler. If looks could kill that nun would be a goner. I didn’t like that nun for a lot of reasons. I believed the nun was in a bad mood and did not relate it to any bad behavior on her part.
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marathon8
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Mar 07, 2019#145
BEST! My office!
Mr.A.L. I was hoping that you would have maintained discipline to the standards I expect in our ‘school.’during my absence! But, alas, I see that the ‘Best girl is up to mischief again…………….LOL!
If I can be serious, just for once in my life, my apologies, to you and Lisa and all our members and moderators for my absence.
As you know I write school fiction. It has taken me just shy of FIVE months to write two stories with a combined length of 28, 652 words. SLOW PROGRESS!

Why so slow?

Flipping work!!! I’m counting the days to my retirement, i really am……if I make it! In addition, it’s not n been the best of starts to 2019 for me.

Alas, do not fear, because last week I went through some of my files and found a couple of things I’d like to add here.
Hopefully at the weekend
4pm, please, Miss Best! Mr A.L, if could witness!

Best wishes to all….. LOL!

Paul
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CathyG
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Mar 10, 2019#146
I saw some in grade school as teachers often spanked in class. In the principal’s office I only saw it when I was also getting it.
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kevinont
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Mar 10, 2019#147
CathyG wrote:
I saw some in grade school as teachers often spanked in class. In the principal’s office I only saw it when I was also getting it.
when you say you saw it….you mean they spanked others in front of who ever was waiting?
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Sir John 2
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Mar 11, 2019#148
Yes .By both Male and Female teachers but non were over 13 and most were younger. I was aged 10/12 at the time.
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hcj44
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Mar 11, 2019#149
Sir John 2, Why have you answered a question that was addressed to Cathy G? You aren’t Cathy G in disguise are you?
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Sir John 2
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Mar 11, 2019#150
Fraid not… Cross dressing is not one of my limited skills. My apologies if I misunderstood. I was under the impression that this was a general thread asking the question which anybody could respond to. It seems others may have made the same mistake.
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six of the best
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Mar 11, 2019#151
I agree conversations here often go off at a tangent.

I went to a mixed primary school where both boys and girls were given a firm slap across the back of their leg in class by female teachers in the infants section, 5 – 7 years. In the junior section, 7 – 11, only boys were punished in class in various ways, usually by male teachers. On the rare occasion a really naughty girl might be sent to the senior female teacher who, I believe, slapped their legs.

My senior school was single sex, boys were caned and slippered there. The headmaster caned for serious offences. The nearby girls senior school, I was told, rarely used CP. The headmistress there did use the cane across the hands, mainly on the really badly behaved older girls.

I was spanked at home a few times. All this was in the 1950s into the mid 1960s. I knew others were spanked by their parents but had no real details of it.
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Sir John 2
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Mar 12, 2019#152
I attended Olga Street mixed primary in East London. You usually left after the 11 plus but for some reason there were a few kids who were older.

They were 2 teachers at the school (both male) whose spanking activitiesI suspect were a bit dubious and I may well write about them some time. Today I will refer the the activities of a somewhat elderly female teacher whom I will call Miss Raine ,because that was her name although she was referred to .at least by the boys as The Old Girl. MissRaine took us for the final year . She was not that great a teacher and I think for those of us who went on to grammar schools it was more a case of in spite of as opposed to because of. She was somewhat full of her own importance as the oldest and most senior teacher..probably by a good margin and tended to be fairly strict disciplinarian.

Her punishments as regards the boys was a little unconventional. She would make you roll up your left shirt sleeve ,hold your arm firmly with her left hand and then proceed to vigorously slap your arm above the elbow with her right hand . During this procedure she stared you in the face. Tougher boys would stare back at her and would receive a long slapping . I think “the record” for my class was about 26 slaps. However you did not have to be a genius to work out that if you acted in pain..and it did hurt quite a bit, the slapping stopped sooner at around 6 or 8 slaps. These slappings would be either given at your desk..she would storm up to you or standing next to her at her desk at the front especially if she was dealing with more than one culprit.

As regards the girls she was much more conventional and would partially raise their skirts and slap the backs of their thighs. Usually 3 or 6 on each leg. . Again this would be carried out either at the girls desk with them her leaning over or out the front when she would sit down at her desk and take them over her knee. Over the knee spankings tended to possibly be a bit harder and possibly given higher up the leg. I clearly remember a couple of girls (truants ) who received 12 a piece complaining that that “most of those were on my bum. To be fair she did not slap the girls as hard as the boys. I also remenber some girls complaining that her lap was angled down and they felt like ther were going to fall off. Miss R was quite short and dumpy.

I never once recall her slapping a girl on the arm . What her motives were having different target areas for the sexes have never been clear to me especially as most boys were in short trousers.
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Lisabest
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Mar 13, 2019#153
Welcome back Paul thought you had got lost???? and thank you for yet another invite to your study. Ive lost count of the number of times you have so kindly sort my company.
Please do inform us as to the content of this particular story you have written. I cant for the life of me think what this work is relating to but, it could be of interest to this forum.
Nice to have you back.
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marathon8
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Mar 14, 2019#154
Yes, I’m watching, you Best!
****
Hi, Lisa,
Thank you. I hope you are well
I write school fiction for LSF for ebook publication. And due to other things, it taken me FIVE MONTHS To write two stories!!!
Nice to see that you are still contributing here
BEHAVE, GIRL!……….LOL
Paul
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WWT
Mar 15, 2019#155
Hi Lisa,

You’ll also find my stories on the LSF site as well as some published as eBooks. Corporal punishment in a School setting does feature in several of my stories which are often set back in the 50’s -60’s when I attended school and CP was an almost daily occurrence.
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Lisabest
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Mar 16, 2019#156
Hi Paul and WWT.
Many thanks for the information you provide regarding your stories on LSF
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davenhall
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Mar 16, 2019#157
WWT wrote:
Hi Lisa,

You’ll also find my stories on the LSF site as well as some published as eBooks. Corporal punishment in a School setting does feature in several of my stories which are often set back in the 50’s -60’s when I attended school and CP was an almost daily occurrence.
Hi WWT, I’m a member of LSF What name do you use on there an I’ll have a look at your Stories.
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marathon8
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Mar 17, 2019#158
Hello, Davenhall,
Is ‘Davenhall’ the pseudonym you use onLSF. What f genre do you write.

Hi, Lisa, Hope all is well
Paul
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davenhall
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Mar 17, 2019#159
I don’t write I just read the excellent stories. I wish I could write.
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Lisabest
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Mar 19, 2019#160
Hello again Paul.
Im very well thankyou I do hope you are. Regarding this story you have written. Is it possible for you to tell us what name you have used for the publication? Im sure it would be of some interest to members.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Mar 19, 2019#161
Hello Lisa,

I think that you may find that Paul and certain of our other contributors who have said that they write spanking fiction sell their stories in the form of e-books. I can think of very good reasons why they would not provide free access to their output, and equally good reasons why they may not wish the name on the e-book to be associated with their identity here.

At least one of our writers gave extensive clues as to one of his literary noms de plume in another thread here and I was able to trace an article by him in an online magazine which was accessible free, but that was all.
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WWT
Mar 20, 2019#162
Hello A_L/Lisa, I should point out that as an author on the Library of Spanking Fiction (LSF) site I do not receive any royaties for my published works. Any income derived goes to the publishers and as I understand it, it’s used to help fund the upkeep of the LSF site. I’m perfectly okay with that if there’s any profit left over then the publishers have worked for it.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Mar 20, 2019#163
Hello Lisa, Richard and Paul,

My apologies. I have clearly made incorrect assumptions about financial opportunities on the LSF site.

Further on re-reading the appropriate thread I note that both Richard and Paul have stated the names that they use on the LSF site. You have to solve a minor puzzle for one of Richard’s but it won’t give anyone any undue difficulties.

I have been unable to register with the LSF site to inspect the main body of works by Richard and Paul. Another contributor reported similar problems in registering. In my case it may be the browser I use until I am confident that a site is malware free.

I was able to read one article by Richard despite not being able to register, and I can report that it was excellent, as I noted in the thread concerned.
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marathon8
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Mar 20, 2019#164
BEST! I’ve decided to make you head girl……..

I have stories on the LSF free library (Paul Jackson), Lisa.
Regarding the two new stories recently written for ebook, no, they have not been published yet. Very soon, I anticipate. I haven’t published an ebook for a year because of my lack of time!!!
Anyway, bottoms up!

Hello, Davenhill. Thank you. Oh, I’m sure you could write. It’s simply a matter of putting a character into a situation and developing ‘conflict of character.’ Yes, one needs creativity and originality. I write school plots, and I do try to move away from the old hackneyed storylines of truancy, drinking, cheating, lateness, etc. Yes, one can use a variation of the aforementioned themes, but I like to try to come up with something different.
GET THAT KEYBOARD A CLATTERING!!! LOL!
Paul
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Mar 20, 2019#165
Hi, all,

You have a choice on the matter of royalties for ebooks.
When I first joined, royalties were always paid to writers. Thus far, LSF have never asked me to donate royalties. We do pay a small yearly membership to help with costs. It really is a brilliant website and it’s run by great folk. However, I, like many others, put a tremendous effort into my writing and apart from what a put on the free library, yes, I write for profit. Even those free stories that are added to the library can at a later stage be used in ebooks

Paul
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Mar 20, 2019#166
It is clear that LSF is held in high regard by those who can get into the site. Sadly I can’t, and at least one other person here has said that they can’t either. And I have to say that from my PoV the site doesn’t exactly exude helpfulness and friendliness. ????
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Lisabest
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Mar 21, 2019#167
Hi Paul,
Many thanks for the information regarding your literature. I was just curious about your contributions to such a site. Also, thank you for the promotion. What it actually entails is another matter Im sure????.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Mar 21, 2019#168
Paul Jackson Trilogy.

This 3 volume box set containing over 92,000 words, features the following: AN EXTRAORDINARY PADDLING An Extraordinary Paddling: Aloof, imperturbable and self-assured, 18-year-old high school student Mia acts as if her position and privileged upbringing place her above school rules, but when she pushes Vice Principal Brooks too far her tight denim jeans are taken down and her exposed derriere pays the price for her insubordination when she is subjected to an extraordinary paddling. My Dilemma: With her stunning looks, twelfth-grade redhead, Chandra Martin, regularly runs rings round her maths teacher, Mr Jackson, taking advantage of his obvious reluctance to paddle the female students in his class. But when she turns up late yet again, hasn’t done her homework and makes rude gestures behind his back, he finally decides to take action, and she is ordered to retrieve the paddle… Shorts Two: Garfield High’s air conditioning is faulty, adding to the irritability of students and teachers alike during a spell of hot weather. When twelfth-grader Kirsty is sent to the office for being inattentive during class, Mr Law orders her to return after school for a spanking. Several of the other girls tell Kirsty, who is new to the school, that she is expected to wear ‘paddle-pants’ for her punishment, and one even loans her a pair…

SLAM DUNK Slam Dunk: 18-year-old schoolgirls, Candi Rousell and Kathy Wilson, are bitter rivals and captain of their school’s basketball teams. When their teams meet in the play-offs tempers flare and both girls get sent to the sin bin. Candi is paddled by the basketball team coach and the following day subjected to a further paddling, this time on her bare bottom. Meanwhile, Kathy is found guilty of ‘mooning’ and made to touch her toes for a bare bottomed paddling. Next!: Star pupil, Billy Martin, is admired by his teachers at Delray Beach High School but is much less popular with his fellow students, and in particular two of the more attractive girls, Jenny and Sian. The tables get turned, however, when the girls get caught wearing next to nothing whilst sunbathing on the flat roof of the science lab. Summoned to the principal’s office, both are paddled, an event made all the sweeter for Billy who is asked to act as a witness to their punishment.

AN ENGLISH GIRL AT A TEXAS HIGH SCHOOL An English Girl at a Texas High School: Having moved from England to Forth Worth, Joanne adapts well to the local high school and has an unblemished record until she and four friends are caught bunking off. Back at school, Joanne has to wait outside the Assistant Principal’s office while her four friends are summoned one after the other to be paddled. When it’s her turn to be punished, however, she is sent to the Principal and her bottom is subjected to his extra large paddle known as the Beast. Shorts One: Twelfth-grader Roni Everett is warming up for a 1500m qualifying race to represent her school in the district meet when she is pulled off the track and escorted to the Vice Principal’s office. It seems she has three demerits and punishment can’t wait. As she has not been given time to get changed, the Vice Principal paddles her over her skimpy running shorts. The Paddling of Tammy Hirst: Following an altercation with two other cheer squad members, 19-year-old high school cheerleader Tammy is sent to the Principal’s office. When she is told she will be kicked off the squad and suspended, she pleads for an alternative punishment and it is agreed she can have 10 swats of the paddle instead. She is horrified, however, when she learns that the paddling is to be given by Carl Babb, an Assistant Principal with whom she has previously had a brief sexual encounter.

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marathon8
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Mar 21, 2019#169
Sounds like me, folks.

Paul
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larry1951
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Mar 21, 2019#170
The topic of LSF is now closed. Ed.
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Ch8
21
Mar 26, 2019#171
I witnessed a girl getting the bat from my headmaster when I was eleven years old in 1994. This was in a private school in North London, boys and girls were in separate buildings. In the boys school, corporal punishment was used regularly by all teachers however only the headmaster could give the bat. In the girls school there was no corporal punishment however if a girl did something bad enough, they were bought to the boys school to be punished.
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marathon8
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Mar 26, 2019#172
Hello, CH8,

Thank you for your contribution and sharing this incident with us, and welcome to our group.

When you say a ‘bat,’ was this a round, vanished wood implement, like a table tennis bat? Or perhaps oval?

I think many members, here, will want to ask questions on what is a significant piece of SCP.
This was in 1994. So three years before CP was banned in private schools during the infancy of the Blair government.

So was the girl in question eleven, too? You say girls were not subject to CP, unless warranted. Thus, this was a serious misdemeanour. Do you have any idea what the girl had done to deserve the ‘bat?’

If you witnessed the girl’s punishment, can I assume it was done in a classroom in front of you all, or did you happen to be passing the headmaster’s office and caught a glimpse of the punishment?

An implement such as a ‘bat’ would not be able to be given safely across the palm of the hand. Therefore, I’m guessing she got it on the bottom, over her skirt? Am I correct? How many whacks did she get?

I would guess that being hit with some kind of a bat would be quite a painful punishment, so I shall assume some audible yelps and some tears?

CH8, again, I thank you for sharing your memory with us.
Best wishes,
Paul
.

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Mar 26, 2019#173
Hi, all,
Paul again:
I do recall that somewhere within my collection of posts from ‘Friends Reunited,’ there is one incident where a bat was used in a state school. I’ve probably posted it on here before. I will try to locate it.

Paul
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six of the best
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Mar 26, 2019#174
I’ve heard of parents using table tennis bats in the past. Of course parents had no rules or even guidelines to follow on how to punish their children. Many did much as they’d had from their own parents in the past. A fairly safe way to do it as they knew what being on the receiving end was like. Other parents sought the advice of other parents, friends, neighbours, etc.

I’d imagine that for many girls taking corporal punishment in front of a mixed class must have quite an ordeal almost as bad as the punishment itself. Not quite so bad if the girl was one of a big family where regular home discipline was carried out in front of brothers or sisters.

Not all LEAs specified what punishments implements could or could not be used. Generally it was the cane, strap or plimsoll and of course the hand firmly applied. Some LEAs only allowed CP for girls across their hands. Despite all these rules it was almost impossible to control just how many strokes (up to a maximum of six usually) should be given for various disobedience and how hard the whacks should be applied.

All this said some unofficial school punishments were given with rulers, belts and sometimes strange implements.
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Ch8
21
Mar 26, 2019#175
marathon8 wrote:
Hello, CH8,

Thank you for your contribution and sharing this incident with us, and welcome to our group.

When you say a ‘bat,’ was this a round, vanished wood implement, like a table tennis bat? Or perhaps oval?

If you witnessed the girl’s punishment, can I assume it was done in a classroom in front of you all, or did you happen to be passing the headmaster’s office and caught a glimpse of the punishment?

I would guess that being hit with some kind of a bat would be quite a painful punishment, so I shall assume some audible yelps and some tears?

CH8, again, I thank you for sharing your memory with us.
Best wishes,
Paul
.

Click to expand…
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six of the best
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Mar 26, 2019#176
CH8, Guess you hit the wrong button then!
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Ch8
21
Mar 26, 2019#177
six of the best wrote:
CH8, Guess you hit the wrong button then!
The bat was a mini cricket bat. She was in second year seniors so about thirteen years old. She had cheated on a test and was bought after school for an hours detention. It was given in private in the headmaster’s office six smacks on the bottom bent over a desk. I also was being punished that day so I was standing outside the office waiting my punishment.
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six of the best
1,115
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Mar 26, 2019#178
So it was a case of ‘ladies first’! How much of it did you hear? Did you see her afterwards? Did you get the impression she wasn’t totally new to getting her bottom walloped?

When I was a teenage lad plenty of girls were spanked by their parents but few ever admitted to getting it. I remember one lad telling of his sister getting it from their dad for being home late one evening. Obviously he had the same at home sometimes.
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Ch8
21
Mar 27, 2019#179
I heard and saw everything. The school was empty at that point as it was an after school detention. She told me afterwards shr had never been hit before, it was quite shocking for her. Very few parents smacked at that point, our school was very old fashioned in that way.
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kevinont
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Mar 27, 2019#180
six of the best wrote:

When I was a teenage lad plenty of girls were spanked by their parents but few ever admitted to getting it. I remember one lad telling of his sister getting it from their dad for being home late one evening. Obviously he had the same at home sometimes.
i remember this often my sister getting spanked by dad…but your right few girls at school would let on….unless it was one of your good buddies that told you there sister got it
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marathon8
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Mar 27, 2019#181
Hi, CH8
Thank so much fo the information.
A sound whacking indeed.
I assume across the skirt?
Thanks
Paul.
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six of the best
1,115
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Mar 27, 2019#182
kevinont wrote:
i remember this often my sister getting spanked by dad…but your right few girls at school would let on….unless it was one of your good buddies that told you there sister got it
How did your dad spank your sister, in private? As an only child I had no such experience of this sort of thing. It wasn’t until I met my wife that I really learnt much of girls being punished at home.

I had a schoolfriend who was strapped at home by both parents. From his mother it was the more on the spot punishments across trousers. From his dad it was more formal,, sent to his bedroom and strapped across his bare bottom. He lived between my home and our school I and another lad used to call for him most mornings. One morning when we called he came to the door and asked us to wait there for a few minutes. There was enough time so we did so.

He disappeared back inside leaving the door open. Then we heard three whacks, not the sort of sound you can mistake. Then Robert reappeared and we made our way towards school. He, at first said nothing, and we never asked. Then he let out a bit of a gasp and exclaimed “Three across my arse!” He then told us that he had cheeked his mother when she had told him to get a move on or he’d be late for school. I already knew he had the strap at home sometimes.

He had a much older sister, married by then. It never occurred to me back then that she may well have been punished in the same way when younger particularly as their mother used the strap as well as their dad.
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Sir John 2
548
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Mar 27, 2019#183
I think a table tennis bat was used more frequently in UK school discipline than is thought.Its advantage is that it requires little skill to use, unlike a cane,although the same can be said for the slipper..

It was definitely used at “school camp” in the 60’s and early 70’s.
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six of the best
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Mar 27, 2019#184
I’m not sure if any LEAs approved the use of table tennis bats for use as CP implements. Some LEAs made no recommendations as to what should or should not be used and of course private schools could use other implements.

Plenty of parents used slippers, belts, ping pong bats as well as wooden spoons and spatulas. Although very few parents gave proper canings some might occasionally use a garden bamboo or the handle of a feather duster. A neighbour of ours when I was growing up used the feather duster handle on her son. She put it across my bottom once when she was looking after me when my mother working.
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iankenrick
406
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Mar 27, 2019#185
six of the best I bet you where not tickled about that then [ sorry excuse my childish humour could not resist that one ]
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six of the best
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Mar 27, 2019#186
iankenrick wrote:
six of the best I bet you where not tickled about that then [ sorry excuse my childish humour could not resist that one ]
I regret to have to tell you that she pulled the feather part of it off before using it! My friend Barry was well used to the feather part being pulled off!
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WWT
Mar 27, 2019#187
iankenrick wrote:
six of the best I bet you where not tickled about that then [ sorry excuse my childish humour could not resist that one ]
“Yes, Pip,” said Joe; “and what’s worse, she’s got Tickler with her.” At this dismal intelligence, I twisted the only button on my waistcoat round and round, and looked in great depression at the fire. Tickler was a wax-ended piece of cane, worn smooth by collision with my tickled frame.

Great Expectation: Chapter 2.
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WWT
Mar 27, 2019#188
Expectations.
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six of the best
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Mar 27, 2019#189
I remember the quote. Dickens often made reference to corporal punishment, David Copperfield and Oliver Twist in particular. I’ve read many Dickens books and as far as I remember there is no mention of girls receiving corporal punishment. All references I remember are canings.

I’m not sure any of the great authors ever writing of girls being caned or even spanked. Maybe someone here may prove me wrong. Mark Twain gives the impression that girls in Tom Sawyer’s school could be caned as Tom was. He takes the blame for something to save Becky Thatcher from being punished but there is no real suggestion of girls there being bent over to be caned there.

I’ve also read in various places of local general stores or hardware shops in the UK selling punishment canes in the past, something else I never knew of in the 1950s/60s.

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kevinont
195
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Mar 27, 2019#190
six of the best wrote:
kevinont wrote:
i remember this often my sister getting spanked by dad…but your right few girls at school would let on….unless it was one of your good buddies that told you there sister got it
How did your dad spank your sister, in private? As an only child I had no such experience of this sort of thing. It wasn’t until I met my wife that I really learnt much of girls being punished at home.

He had a much older sister, married by then. It never occurred to me back then that she may well have been punished in the same way when younger particularly as their mother used the strap as well as their dad.
Click to expand…
our spankings were usually done in our rooms laying on the bed as we got older in private, after around age 10 (before 10 usually over knee hand or wooden spoon) it was typical belt/strap on our underwear or bare….depending i guess what we had done….very rare spankings together if we had done something stupid together, that was usually in the rec (tv) room usually over arm of couch or bent over a ottoman, underwear or bare.
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six of the best
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Mar 27, 2019#191
It is interesting how parental discipline varied family to family. Strange how general nudity is more commonplace nowadays yet many parents required both sons and daughters to bare their bottoms for spankings in the past. Whether this was to make punishments more painful or it was to make them shameful, perhaps both. I don’t remember being too concerned at having my trousers and underpants down for a spanking at home but I had no brothers or sisters to see it being done.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Mar 27, 2019#192
Hello six of the best,

Re your contribution #189 above, does Charlotte Brontë qualify as a ‘great author’ please? If so how about Miss Scatcherd’s birching of Helen Burns at Lowood School in ‘Jane Eyre’?

Putting +jane +eyre +birching into the Forum search engine will find you several previous mentions here.

In the book the birch is administered to Helen’s neck. Contributors here have speculated that this was a euphemism for another part of her anatomy, particularly so as she is required to adjust her clothing for the punishment. However the illustrated post here and the immediately subsequent contribution by hcj concerning a surreptitiously shot video of a Republic of Korea classroom punishment may throw some light on the matter and possibly indicate that the neck was indeed what Ms Brontë intended.
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six of the best
1,115
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Mar 28, 2019#193
I remember the Jane Eyre birching, I’ve always believed the neck to mean across the shoulders with the top of the girl’s blouse or dress unfastened enough to expose the bare skin. An unusual method of CP nevertheless.

What I was really referring to was bottom punishments for girls in books. I don’t think there is much doubt that
many Victorian mothers spanked their daughters. The double standards of the Victorians are well known. Maids helped ladies young and old to undress and bathe. Yet in public the better off ladies wore copious layers of clothing.
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marathon8
291
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Mar 28, 2019#194
Hi, CH8,
Thanks so much again for sharing information with us about SCP at school.

For some reason, I imagine that this was just a middle school? I’m I wrong and in fact it had a 5th form? Did it have a 6th form?
Were older pupils libel for the ‘bat,’ for indiscipline? Older girls, too?

I assume girls’ punishments were across the skirt, including the girl that you witnessed getting the ‘bat?’

Six whacks with what was seemingly a light paddle in essence, is a very stiff punishment! Surely she must have cried? Did she yell out?

Also, over the desk, you say. If it was ‘right over, gripping the front edge, and if she was in a short skirt, she would have presented almost the tops of he legs. Thus, did the headmase have a female witness in? Or was the skirt a longer design?

Was she a pretty girl?

I’m sure folk he will appreciate the contribution you have made.

Thanks
Paul.
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Ch8
21
Mar 28, 2019#195
The school had a fifth form but no six form. Pupils from Junior one and up boys and girls were liable for the bat. In reception and infants school the headmaster would give smacks on the bottom without bending the child over.
For the bat you had to bend over keeping feet apart and rest forearms on the centre of the desk. She was wearing a long pleated skirt as per the school uniform. She had gotten a terrible shouting at and she was crying already before the bat was even taken out. After the first whack, she jumped up screaming. She was told to bend again and got another one. She jumped up a second time and was told she must stay down for the next two but she actually stayed bent for four more.
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dmp
191
11
Mar 29, 2019#196
what do you think your headmaster would have done if she had refused, you said you didn’t think she got it at home and was shocked by the incident, what would he have done if she refused to bend over and fought any attempt to make her.
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Ch8
21
Mar 29, 2019#197
dmp wrote:
what do you think your headmaster would have done if she had refused, you said you didn’t think she got it at home and was shocked by the incident, what would he have done if she refused to bend over and fought any attempt to make her.
Everyone was so frightened of the headmaster it didn’t come into question not to listen
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jennysanders
6
Mar 31, 2019#198
slickshorts wrote:
Throwing this one open to all of you – I can remember girls at my school getting the slipper, usually over their pleated skirts, but occasionally over their knicks. I also know that the cane was administered, but behind closed doors, and by the deputy head, who was female. Anyone else any recollections? Come on girls, tell us your stories……
I got the cricket bat on three ocasions from the headmaster. Always in his office but twice witnessed by other girls and once alone.
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AliceOttley
235
19
Mar 31, 2019#199
six of the best:
many parents required both sons and daughters to bare their bottoms for spankings in the past. Whether this was to make punishments more painful or it was to make them shameful, perhaps both.
My brother and I were both spanked by our father when we were completely naked. He always did it on Sunday evening which was bath night and, as we didn’t have a bathroom, bathing was done in a metal bath in the living room and we shared bath water. We were used to seeing each other naked and being naked in front of our parents so there was no feeling of shame – it was probably just to make sure we felt it properly.

He would put us over his knee and spank our bare bottoms until he thought it was enough. I don’t think it was a set number of spanks and it did sting but was not brutal and we didn’t resent him for it, we just accepted it as normal. It wasn’t that frequent but just when he thought we deserved it.

I do remember enjoying seeing my brother getting spanked and his bottom turning red but I can’t explain why as we did get on ok generally and I liked him. I didn’t know anything about sex at that age so there was no conscious association with that. He never told me he enjoyed seeing me getting spanked and we’ve never discussed it since.

This was only up to when I was eight years old and my brother was seven as we moved house and had the luxury of a real bathroom. He never spanked us after that although I’m sure we were sometimes naughty but it just never happened again. Our mother never smacked us at all that I remember but it was a long time ago – I think we moved house 1955.
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kevinont
195
13
Mar 31, 2019#200
six of the best wrote:
It is interesting how parental discipline varied family to family. Strange how general nudity is more commonplace nowadays yet many parents required both sons and daughters to bare their bottoms for spankings in the past. Whether this was to make punishments more painful or it was to make them shameful, perhaps both. I don’t remember being too concerned at having my trousers and underpants down for a spanking at home but I had no brothers or sisters to see it being done.
HI six of the best.

I had to think about this, nudity might be more “common” now a days, but i think that has to do with the fact that there was no internet when i grew up and most in this group, no digital cameras/smart phones etc. that makes it seem like it is common. As for baring in the past for a spanking, id go out on a limb and suggest that maybe nobody talked about or shared it publicly. No forums to talk/chat about our self and talk about spankings.

Like you i was never concerned too much about my state of dress or lack off for a spanking. More concentrating on the next whack! As for a sibling seeing you bared or you seeing them, there is always a sense of it being a bit normal when you grew up. Houses back then when i grew up usually only had one bathroom/shower.
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iankenrick
406
18
Mar 31, 2019#201
kevinont do not agree there personally I am on here too here others experiences and I am more than happy too share and have shared personal experiences personally I do not get off and get any cheap thrill about what is written on this site that would be a mark of a sicko just want too here others how they where dealt with by parents and teachers
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larry1951
2,292
79
Mar 31, 2019#202
Here below message #201 in English:

kevinont,

I do not agree. I am on here to hear others’ experiences and am more than happy to share, and have shared, personal experiences. I do not get any cheap thrill from what is written on this site. I just want to hear from others how they were dealt with by parents and teachers.
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iankenrick
406
18
Mar 31, 2019#203
larry151 sorry what gives you the right too edit my post my written English is not always very good I grand you but I will not be ridiculed about it
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six of the best
1,115
96
Apr 01, 2019#204
I can understand larry151’s frustration at spelling and grammar errors. I didn’t think that iankenrick’s was as bad as some I’ve read on here. I tend to use the Full Editor and Preview facility myself. Then I read and, if necessary, correct what I am about to submit. For longer submissions I sometimes use Word first then copy it into this site. Not all here are English scholars but I do expect better from some ‘grammer’ schoolboys!
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WWT
Apr 01, 2019#205
The fact that on this forum, it is not possible to go back and edit a post can be frustrating.
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six of the best
1,115
96
Apr 01, 2019#206
As I said it is always worthwhile to read and reread your post before submitting it.
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WWT
Apr 01, 2019#207
And still missttakkks okkur ????
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six of the best
1,115
96
Apr 01, 2019#208
Too many spelling mistakes often meant trouble in school!
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stujos
219
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Apr 01, 2019#209
The odd spelling mistake I can tolerate, but misuse the apostrophe and my wrath will be incurred!
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marathon8
291
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Apr 01, 2019#210
Hi, CH8,

Thank you for the further information regarding your school. It was very much appreciated.

This is quite a significant piece of factual information.

You have pointed out that girls were rarely subjected to SCP, unless a case of gross indiscipline occurred. But it surprises me that girls in the fifth could get the bat. My guess is that fifth form girls receiving the bat would have been almost unheard of.

The bending position is similar to the position adopted in some American schools.

May I add, too, that the whacking was pretty severe: six with an implement that was similar to a U.S paddle is quite a lot for a girl of thirteen. That she jumped up twice shows that. Yes she cheated, it seems. You say it was on a test. I’m guessing a general class test rather than an exam, as that would have meant the incident being reported to the exam board. Of course it’s wrong to cheat, for the reality is, she was simply cheating herself. However, I hope the school investigated further the reasons for her cheating, perhaps, also, a meeting, along with her parents, with the pastoral care head. And of course support to bring her up to speed with the subject that compelled her to cheat.

Excellent contribution, CH8. Thank you.

Paul.
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kevinont
195
13
Apr 01, 2019#211
larry1951 wrote:
Here below message #201 in English:

kevinont,

Was that done in front of the class or in private please?
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hcj44
228
23
Apr 02, 2019#214
josephsjp wrote:
Caning on thigh after lifting the skirt was common in my school days…..
josephsjp: Please could you tell us in which country this happened?
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Apr 02, 2019#215
stujos wrote:
The odd spelling mistake I can tolerate, but misuse the apostrophe and my wrath will be incurred!
Not much future for you as a greengrocer then!
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Lisabest
90
10
Apr 02, 2019#216
I think caning should always have been administered in private and the lifting or adjustment of a girls skirt completely unacceptable in any circumstances. It was in my opinion this kind of misuse of corporal punishment that eventually led to its demise in schools.
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AliceOttley
235
19
Apr 02, 2019#217
Lisabest:
I agree with you about caning being done in private but how do you feel about cp in primary school?
At my primary school leg smacking was done everyday to both boys and girls in front of everyone.
The girl’s skirt would be lifted and the bare thighs smacked. The boy would have the leg of his short trousers pulled up and the back of the thigh smacked, sometimes one thigh or both. I never saw this done by a male teacher though.
I think we all thought of it as normal and as far as I am aware there were no complaints.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Apr 02, 2019#218
There are indications in the relevant avatar that josephsjp may be from Malaysia. There is a faint text containing ‘Malaysia’ visible on close examination. Past discussions here have indicated considerable variations in the SCP regime in Malaysian schools according to period, locality and type of school.

Malaysia has I believe a fairly recent history of attempts to reintroduce the cane for girls in schools where it has been banned. Also in certain States there have been moves to reintroduce public caning of both men and women as a penalty available to the religious courts. I haven’t time to look up the reference now but I recall that when there was criticism of the effect this might have on the International image of Malaysia a prominent politician speculated that it might actually do great things for the tourist industry.

On a lighter note longstanding readers of this Forum will recall cycle shorts, tunics lifted by headmistress for the purpose of administering the cane and once prominent contributor Sill Lee Asso.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
69
Apr 02, 2019#219
A_L I think if the Malaysian girls would be submitting to corporal punishment there may be more support to have their hands be the target and not their bottoms. But who can be sure?
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Apr 02, 2019#220
These young ladies (too old to be called girls) learned the hard way what happens if you do not clean up after yourself after a science lab in Malaysia. Kudos to A_L for sharing this image.

https://photobucket.com/gallery/user/An … anBn/?ref=
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Apr 02, 2019#221
Apologies. In post #218 above I wrote:

Also in certain States there have been moves to reintroduce public caning of both men and women as a penalty available to the religious courts.

That should have been ‘introduce’ not ‘reintroduce’. The caning penalty (a less severe version than the canings for males only in the national court system) was already available for males and, a comparatively recent introduction, for females in religious Courts in certain states, the punishment being inflicted in the privacy of a prison as part of a prison sentence. The proposals were to introduce a slightly more rigorous version of the public canings recently ceased in the Aceh province of Indonesia to increase the educational and deterrent effects of the penalty.
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six of the best
1,115
96
Apr 02, 2019#222
AliceOttley wrote:
At my primary school leg smacking was done everyday to both boys and girls in front of everyone.
The girl’s skirt would be lifted and the bare thighs smacked. The boy would have the leg of his short trousers pulled up and the back of the thigh smacked, sometimes one thigh or both. I never saw this done by a male teacher though.
I think we all thought of it as normal and as far as I am aware there were no complaints.
I remember this in my infants school (5 -7 years) back in about 1953. One afternoon just before the end of the school day a girl called Hilary was given a hard slap across the back of her thigh. Her mum met her at the school gate soon afterwards. She still had a red hand print on her thigh. Hilary’s mother it seems was less than pleased about this. My mum was there to meet me too. I remember my mum telling a friend of this. This was that teacher’s way of punishing both boys and girls, I escaped it myself but saw many others have it. Up to that time I’d never been slapped or spanked at school or at home but I don’t remember being upset at others getting punished. It was just an accepted way of punishing youngsters back then.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
69
Apr 02, 2019#223
I noticed our postings have become more frequent. It takes some pressure off of me. I was afraid that the estimable Forum’s future was imminently imperiled.

It was not all that long ago that Malaysian girls were caned. Girls were judge to be less deserving of the cane than the boys of caning was seen as either less effective and/or appropriate.

Apologies for reposting. Some may find that annoying.

Here’s a little of my experience that I would like to share with all of you about me going to a chinese school in Malaysia during my primary school with pooi yee who was my classmate when i was 7 years old! enjoy~
Banana is a Malaysian slang for A chinese that does not know how to speak, read or write chinese~~~ since I transferred to an english speaking school, I have forgotten most of my chinese til i recently picked it back up again.

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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Apr 03, 2019#224
Some of our newer readers may have been puzzled by American Way’s contribution #220 earlier in the thread where he linked this ancient Network54 posted picture from my PhotoBucket account:

Reference to this post by alaric may enlighten them. Note that the blog from which the picture came, linked in the post and still extant, says that the girls were caned at a Malaysian school, SMK Permas Jaya, for absenting themselves from a school workshop, not for failing to tidy up a science lab as indicated by American Way. It also says that at the time Charlotte, the blogger, was aged 19. Close examination of the photograph shows possible evidence of what may be cane strokes on some of the displayed palms.

Almost 3 years later alaric posted a reference to a similar blog from another Malaysian school, SMK Taman Connaught, as the opening contribution to this thread.

Note that there are various conflicting and confusing claims made, including that girls were caned on the bottom in front of the whole school for lateness. I’m not sure quite how, but the photograph surfaced again in that thread too. But only after a contributor claiming to be the webmaster of SMK Taman Connaught had posted in contribution #29 to say that absolutely no girls were caned at SMK Taman Connaught and that caning girls was strictly forbidden.

After a query as to how the school webmaster might have known about discussion here I explained in contribution #31. Although ways of masking personal identity have become easier to deploy since then it is worth noting that when you visit a website via a link in a thread here the visit can still be traced back as originating in this Forum.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
69
Apr 03, 2019#225
A_L You’re right the science lab. I cannot get my mind off those naughty girls in the physics class.

Prohibitions of laws are taken more seriously in some countries than others if surveys are to be believed.

Malaysian medicine for the indiscipline of the student body? Maybe only now for misbehaving sons and daughters.

https://scontent-amt2-1.cdninstagram.co … OQ%3D%3D.2

https://lviewer.com/ru/alex__soh/200920 … 3240290955
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Apr 03, 2019#226
An example of A_L skepticism under the picture of the brutalization of some very attractive palms. ????

Possible evidence of what may be cane strokes on some of the displayed palms.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Apr 03, 2019#227
Hello American Way,

The second link in your contribution #225 above gives details of the Instagram user, Alexis Soh, who posted the picture of the canes on sale. It is fairly clear from other photographs in the same post that the location concerned is Singapore. I was reminded of this thread from 2011, originated by Graham who was looking to purchase a cane in Singapore. A curious ambition, but hey, whatever floated his boat!

In the thread former contributor Ketta draws attention to the Wikipedia picture here showing canes with plastic handles in a Singapore shop. And in his post accompanying the Instagram picture Alexis Soh notes that those canes do not have the plastic handles usually found nowadays. These little details probably elicit a yawn from most of our readers but they fascinate minutia obsessed Another_Lurker!
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
69
Apr 03, 2019#228
Mingguan Malaysia newspaper had me jumping to the wrong conclusion. What a debt of gratitude the estimable Forum owes to your attention to details.
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End of the topic.228 posts
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