Gender and school CP complaints

School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

There are far more mother-led single parent families than father-led and even in two parent families, the mother is far more likely to be the primary carer of the children.

In general, schools have always been very sexist environments. Headteachers have very little respect for parents’ opinions (“my castle; my rules”) and Headmasters, especially, have none for the opinions “silly little women”. Dr Dominum admitted he caned a boy who, with his mother’s permission (she even bought the ticket), missed a sponsored walk to attend a performance of a play he was studying. When a mother complains to a school, she’s far more likely to be fobbed off with a “don’t be silly dear”, so is forced to escalate the matter by going to the newspapers or the courts.

In matter of CP, another effect of that sexism is that fathers are more likely to have been “taught” that regular beatings are a necessary feature of school (especially for boys) whereas mothers are more likely to have been “taught” that CP isn’t necessary.

That approach doesn’t work when Headteachers refuse to listen to parents’ concerns.
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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 04, 2013#3
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If we therefore concern ourselves only with real SCP administered with real implements by real teachers to real pupils in real schools, it is clear that girls are far more likely than boys to be punished unfairly and excessively simply because most excessive punishments are inflicted by male teachers and most male teachers are heterosexual.

Also, it seems blindingly obvious that a battered and bruised schoolgirl is far more likely to show her injuries to her mother than to her father who, not having seen the injuries, is in no way qualified to complain about them.

With that having been said, the main reason fathers don’t complain about their son’s SCP is that boys and men are expected to be stoical and with that expectation firmly in place, pervert-teachers the world over have always had carte blanche to abuse schoolboys and only the most extreme cases are ever likely to come to light,
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Feb 04, 2013#4
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I fully concur with your final paragraph but I disagree with your statement (which seems to contradict) that “it is clear that girls are far more likely than boys to be punished unfairly and excessively simply because most excessive punishments are inflicted by male teachers and most male teachers are heterosexual”

Many schools and some LEA’s had blanket policies exempting girls from CP. Some others had policies prohibiting male teachers using CP with girls – although only two, as far as I’m aware, forbade female teachers using CP with boys. There are even cases of boys being punished for girls’ misdeeds. Stephen Hutchings gave one example where the teacher was clearly a pervert. Even in schools where, in theory, CP could be used for both sexes, some of them were very reluctant to use it with girls, usually making pathetic excuses such as “it’s only the ‘n’th time she did it” (where ‘n’ is usually a large integer) or “she’s only a girl, she doesn’t know any better, she was led astray by boys” As a result, SCP of girls was relatively rare and excessive SCP of girls, for the reasons you give, extremely so. It was that rarity that made it newsworthy so might appear more common than it ever was.

Also there was a tendency for female teachers punish both sexes more severely than male teachers did – possibly because they didn’t know their own strength. They would also know that it would more likely be overlooked if they did overstep the mark.

Children of both sexes are more likely to complain to their mothers than their fathers simply because, on retuning from school, they’re more likely to see their mothers first and are more likely to have a sympathetic ear. Mothers where less likely to have full-time jobs so had more opportunity to raise complaints with the school.

Schools and teachers who gave girls a blanket exemption, clearly didn’t consider CP necessary to maintain discipline so we need to ask why they used it on boys. A likely explanation is that it was for the teachers’ (probably sexual) gratification and girls were exempted in an attempt to cover their tracks.

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HH2012
836
Feb 04, 2013#5
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In my opinion, no parent should ever make their specific SCP concerns and most especially their child’s bruised posterior public except in the most exceptional cases. To do otherwise will compound the harm done to the child. Disputes and concerns about a school’s CP policy or practices are best discussed privately. Parents and schools need to be allies not enemies. Children should never be used as pawns.
Hi Lotta Nonsense. You brought up several interesting points of view, the first being <em>”Many real teachers and headmasters are sexual perverts…”.</em> Unfortunately, I don’t know which country you are from or have experienced this, so it may be something culturally ingrained specifically in your jurisdiction. Where I am, in Canada, I would say this is factually untrue. While some component of such people exists in society everywhere, my guess is it’s a fraction of 1% here, and I have found no study to show that this demographic is materially more prevalent in education than in society a large. I should add, even in my schooling in the 60’s to 70’s I cannot recall one educator that I could remotely place into that category, and I think I am the usual case, not the exception.

One of the (in my opinion invalid) reasons cited behind our SCP abolitions was to protect children from potential harm from the minority of people who might abuse the practice and deliver SCP for ulterior reasons (the kind I think you refer to). The problem is, persons with such issues are also parents, yet I haven’t found any jurisdiction that has banned their citizens from having children (although the Council on Europe may soon propose this!) to protect them from harm, rather, they all institute tought laws, sentencing, and a variety of interventions to deal with this kind of issue.

In Ontario, the Ministry requires all Boards to place voting parent councils in each of the board’s school. (These deal with issues not covered by provincial or Baord regulation). I serve on my son’s school council and from what I can see, every last educator is a top-notch individual who’s genuinely converned with the learning, improvement and development of their pupils and strive to create a truly captivating learning environment conducive to this. I could not anecdotally say that “many of them” (or indeed any of them) are what you describe. I should say to Jenny’s point, that the vast majority of council members are women (mothers) who voice thier concerns in all regards including discipline.

You also state, <em>”girls are far more likely than boys to be punished unfairly and excessively simply because most excessive punishments are inflicted by male teachers and most male teachers are heterosexual”. </em>This again is factually untrue, at least in my country. Strapping was ultimately done by the principal, and since there is only one of them, their sex is a fixed quantity. Through Freedom of Information protocol, I have been able to obtain and analyse quite a few real-time CP records, and they have consistently shown the same trends.

Point 1 is that Boys were punished disproportionately more than girls (in co-ed schools presumably with 50/50 ratios) and in some cases, the ratio of punishments exceeded 50-to-1 for boys to girls. Remember that most of the principals are male, so they are not seeking out and targetting girls.

Point 2 is that when girls were punished, consistently over all records, they were offered leniency in being meted fewer strokes than the median doled out for their age, grade, or school in total. The actual records demonstarate the opposite of what you just claimed.

However, I don’t know where you are from or from which data you arrive at these conclusions, so if in your country that IS true, then there is clearly a cultural difference influencing the behaviour of those educators which has not existed here.

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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 04, 2013#6
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If I am informed correctly, England has about 25,000 schools and about 220,000 teachers.

If we extrapolate that figure to worldwide proportions, regardless of how we choose to do so it becomes clear that there are millions of teachers in the world.

Now, even if we take your figure of ‘ a fraction of 1%’ when calculating the number of perverts among them, regardless (almost) of what fraction we choose, it leaves us with a number of people that I believe might reasonably be described as ‘many’ rather than ‘few’ – especially when the figure relates to the number of sexual perverts into whose hands we deliver our children on a daily basis.

Furthermore, you seem to interpret my suggestion that “”girls are far more likely than boys to be punished unfairly and excessively” as “girls are far more likely than boys to be punished”. That’s not what I said.

I have no personal knowledge of Canadian perverts and how many of them might have infiltrated that country’s education system and to what extent that system might allow them to prey upon their charges if indeed it allows them to do so at all.

If your schools are are as free from perverts as you suggest, I’m very pleased for you.
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Feb 04, 2013#7
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

That’s one way of looking at it. Another way is that, rather than being treated leniently, girls were punished appropriately and boys were punished excessively.

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dominum
1,407
Feb 04, 2013#8
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

The fact that the boy was caned had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that his mother was involved in the incident, and the fact that it was a mother who was involved and not a father had nothing to do with my decision to cane the boy. I would have handled it exactly the same way if the incident had involved his father.

The reason I caned the boy was because he knowingly and deliberately exploited his mother’s lack of understanding of the reason the school has the rules that it does, in order to get her to give him permission to evade those rules – knowing full well that if she had understood the reasons for the rule, she almost certainly would not have given him that permission. He deliberately and wilfully mislead her about the nature of the sponsored activity and how seriously it was viewed by the school in order to get what he wanted.

He deliberately lead her to believe that the activity was one that was really considered voluntary, rather than compulsory, and that lots of other boys were given permission by their parents to skip it. Both of those things were untrue. He lied to her in order to get what he wanted.

If he hadn’t lied to her, she almost certainly would not have given him permission to skip the activity but if she had still decided, with full knowledge and understanding, to give her permission, I would have accepted that and let it pass without punishment.

In this particular case, it was a mother who didn’t understand the culture of the school or the expectations of the school. This was not because she was female, but because she had had no experience of such a school environment herself as a child, and only a limited understanding of the culture of such a school environment. A situation could certainly also arise where a father might not understand such things – and would have been handled exactly the same way.

I would have caned the boy for exactly the same reasons, if he had exploited the limited understanding of his father rather than his mother (in this specific case, his father was deceased). Trying to paint the decision as, in any way, sexist is wrong. We do have cases where a mother has a better understanding of the school culture than a father, for the same types of reasons that wasn’t true in this case (in this case, his deceased father had wanted him to have the same type of schooling he had had – a choice he has also gone on to make for his own son, by the way – while his mother, from a different cultural background agreed with that desire. We have certainly had other cases where the mother comes from an independent school educational background and pushed the same for their child, while the father came from a state school background, or overseas, and goes along with and supports the desire on his spouses part, without having been the main instigator of it – in such cases, the mother will often have the better understanding of how such a school works, because of her experiences – but, in this specific case, the mother in question did not, and her son deceitfully and deliberately exploited her lack of understanding, manipulating her to get what he wanted – and that’s why I caned him.)
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HH2012
836
Feb 04, 2013#9
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Unfortunately, I cannot offer anything further to Lotta Nonsense, in evidence that girls were singled out for alterior reasons and therefore pushed more severely than their male counterparts. If what he says is true, this should manifest in actual records. But, I have only seen a couple of CP records out of England, and they were all from all-boy schools, so nothing can be gleaned on a sex-comparison basis

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Feb 04, 2013#10
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In a case where 98% of punishments were administered to boys with a median of 6 strokes, that median is the norm. If the 2% of inidents where girls were punished are 2 strokes, and in one case 4 strokes, then I don’t view the boys being excessively punished vs the girls, I view the girls afforded leniency vs the boys. I look at the outliers vs the bulk data, not the other way around. I make no moral judgement on it as an educator needs to determine a variety of factors in making a decision as to what is appropriate, and I have no doubt gender was taken into consideration as well.

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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 04, 2013#11
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Towards that end, let me explain that when I say “girls are far more likely than boys to be punished unfairly and excessively” I mean unfairly and excessively with regard to the alleged offence. I don’t mean to suggest girls were or are in general punished more harshly than boys.

If we accept that many more men are attracted to females than are attracted to other males, and if we accept that sexual arousal tends to cloud the mind with regard to what’s wise and right and proper, it follows that male teachers might tend to seek out female students to punish and to punish them more severely than they ought.

This may or may not happen in Canada (especially in places where it’s too cold for men to get excited) but, if reports are to be believed, it seems to happen with some regularity in the good old US of A.
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de Wolf
Feb 04, 2013#12
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

As the boy’s mother was involved shouldn’t she, or the boy’s father have punished the boy?
What you did was a total disregard for the mother’s authority over her son. Surely it should have
been left to the mother’s discretion? In my eyes, had I been the boy’s father, I would have viewed your
position as arrogant, and an attempt to undermine his mother’s authority.
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N.D.
Feb 05, 2013#13
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I cannot speak about girls but most of the boys would not have told their fathers that they had received the cane less they receive an additional punishment, this was true in my case at any rate if you did receive the cane the only place it was recorded was in the head of the school’s punishment book and parents were not informed. As for the comments about perverts and accounts about receiving corporal punishment I do not think that my headmistress or secondary school headmaster could be classified as perverts as they could only administer the cane to the palms of the hands.
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Feb 05, 2013#14
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

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batfinch1
127
Feb 05, 2013#16
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

The other two members were parents this was not planned as such as any member not a member of staff can be on the panel.

However one parent was a father and the other a mother.it was interesting to see how both their views were almost identical and in some cases not the way I thought.

Its clear that parents today have views different to when my children were in school.

What was also clear was that the father knew as much about the school as a parent as the mother did. There were reasons the father worked for himself and the mother worked.

This made me think back when CP was allowed fathers would not have the flexibility to get as involved as they are today I would imagine in the US a similar situation arries so any comparison is somewhat flawed. Certainly the father from yesterday wold have got involvd, although if he had not been a governor would it have been the same I wonder
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Feb 05, 2013#17
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

So I wonder if I cound ask about her earlier assertion

I think it’s fairly clear what is meant by teachers and headmasters; but how might one define a sexual pervert?

I suppose one might start by saying that a perversion is something that deviates from normality, in a way that is perhaps undesireable. But I think we’d need to know what normality was; the directions of deviation that were deemed undesireable; and the extent of deviation that could not be disregarded as insignificant.

I don’t think that this is at all obvious. To take a different but related example, consider the prosecution in 1960 of Penguin Books Ltd under the Obscene Publications Act 1959 for the publication of Lady Chatterley’s Lover by D. H. Lawrence. In his opening address the prosecuting counsel, Mervyn Griffith-Jones, famously asked “Is it a book that you would even wish your wife or your servants to read?” He obviously expected the answer “no”. But the jury, finding the defendants not guity, clearly disagreed.

Perhaps more pertinently, in 1952 Alan Turing (the real one, not me — I was ony two at the time) was convicted of gross indecency under the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885. Was he a sexual pervert? Would you say he was then, but would not be regarded as one now? Maybe he never was?

To be clear: I’m not saying there’s no such thing as sexual perversion. It’s just that, when the term is used, I’d like to know exactly what is meant, and why it is being used.
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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 05, 2013#18
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Having said that, I think most people in the world might agree that a person who derives sexual pleasure from hurting children is a sexual pervert even if they are unable to define the term with any degree of precision.

If we know anything, we know this: the world of teaching has, over the years, attracted many such individuals.

It is to those people I referred when I used the term ‘sexual pervert’.
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george
Feb 05, 2013#19
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In my opinion, no parent should ever make their specific SCP concerns and most especially their child’s bruised posterior public except in the most exceptional cases. To do otherwise will compound the harm done to the child. Disputes and concerns about a school’s CP policy or practices are best discussed privately. Parents and schools need to be allies not enemies. Children should never be used as pawns.
I think your sweeping statement that teachers who caned are sexual perverts lacks any foundation. If this is the case every teacher that haz ever used any form of cp falls into this group. As you say, it depends on how this term is defined. How it has been defined depends on when we are talking about in the passage of time. If your statement is true why have hundreds if not thousands of cases come to court. The trouble is, you like others are commenting on how you see things now. Some cases in recent times like the Head at Dulwich have shown this to be the case, but this case was not really about justified cp, rather than the head liked to fondle childrens bottoms. That has to make him a sexual pervert, but you cannot compare this with teachers who whackes a bottom with a slipper or cane and never touched it with their hands. To find recent cases f teachers being sexual pervertts doe not mean everybody who has used cp in the past is a sexual pervert.
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Oliver_Sydney
899
48
Feb 05, 2013#20
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I can’t really offer much in answer to your question, but I can’t find that many public complaints by mothers either. This is hardly surprising as whistle blowers always have and always will be persecuted.

In this case “the parents” complained.
http://www.wate.com/story/19526686/morg … ng-student

This one is hardly recent, but is amusing and involves the expat American Jordan Riak (not one of Renee’s favourite people) in his early days of activism in one of Sydney’s wealthier suburbs (1980 or earlier)
http://www.nospank.net/riak80.htm

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Oliver_Sydney
899
48
Feb 05, 2013#21
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

This is what Lotta said.
Having said that, I think most people in the world might agree that a person who derives sexual pleasure from hurting children is a sexual pervert even if they are unable to define the term with any degree of precision.

Most people would agree with this statement. I am confident that the percentage of teachers would be very low, but I also agree when Lotta says it leaves us with a number of people that I believe might reasonably be described as ‘many’ rather than ‘few’.

I must admit that I had more thought of “sexual pervert” in the context of the Dulwich case.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/t … Golden+Age

It does seem to me amazing that none of the parents or, more surprisingly, teachers saw anything amiss at the time, and Peverett’s reputation was so untarnished that he was awarded an OBE many years later. Even after the painful revelations from the victims he was only given a suspended sentence. There seemed to me to be a very strong message from the powers that be that any victims of similar incidents would be advised to keep quiet.

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de Wolf
Feb 05, 2013#22
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I personally believe the real “Alan Turing” altered the course of WW2 saving countless lives with his pure genius,
while head of “hut 8 “at Bletchley Park.
I feel many don’t recognize the important part he played.

It’s fascinating delving back in history from both World Wars. Although some had a more predominant role, as Alan Turing did,
all that were involved directly or indirectly have my utmost respect.
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Feb 05, 2013#23
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I see your point, we’re just looking at it differently. I can’t say my comparison is any more valid than yours, nor vice versa. Ordinarily I’d also tend to compare with the norm but, in this case, the norm is so heavily biased towards punishments inflicted on boys that they become the norm. The question then becomes one of whether the norm is excessive. As a much more lenient punishment is considered sufficient (as evidenced by the punishments inflicted on girls) I would say it is.

Either way of course, as you say, there is no evidence that girls were punished excessively. Lotta/s clarification that those few girls who did receive CP were more likely to be punished excessively isn’t supported either. To be excessive, their punishments would have to be significantly more severe than the norm (or more severe than boys’). There might a be a few isolated cases but, in general, there is no evidence of that.

It’s very clear that sex was often taken into account, even to the extent of providing a complete excuse, but I very much doubt gender(sic) was.
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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 05, 2013#24
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If we’re going to disagree with each other, might it not be a good idea to disagree with what has been said, rather than with what hasn’t?
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neilfrommanc
276
2
Feb 05, 2013#25
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I’ve never seen any indications whatsoever that this has ever been the case in schools anywhere in the world, however we have anecdotes aplenty that the OPPOSITE was the norm, that boys were punished “more severely than they ought” when compared to how girls were punished for a similar offence. By the same token, you could reasonably claim that in a mixed school with a female head, if she canes/paddles/straps more boys than girls it’s because she’s “sought out” male students to punish because she’s a pervert. But, again, I never see this suggested, the common sense interpretation is that she has physically punished more boys than girls because their behaviour merited it, or that CP with girls was often deemed counter-productive.

Unless Lotta is implying that if a male teacher physically punished a girl the SAME as he would have a boy he must be a pervert because he OUGHT to have punished them much less just for being female?

Actually I don’t think it matters greatly if a male teacher liked and looked forward to inflicting pain on a girl – as long as he ensured that it was an appropriate punishment for the offence, would have not exceeded what he would have given a boy and that it was in line with the school’s disciplinary procedure he was in the clear. It’s not wrong to be wrong, it’s wrong to do wrong, if that makes sense.
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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 05, 2013#26
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Just before I faint in shock and horror at the above, I should say that if Neil had substituted ‘boy’ or ‘pupil’ for ‘girl’, I should still be about to faint.
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KK
Feb 05, 2013#27
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I was deliberately vague when I used the word “recent”. For you, this doubtless means anything after the Suez crisis. For others it may mean in the last month. I find recent events now happen much longer ago than they used to. Some of my victims complain they were not even born when I tell them about recent happenings.

The single best source of reliable info on SCP and paddle complaints in the USA is the most excellent Corpun.com. See for eample: UNITED STATES School CP – September 2012 or more generally Corporal punishment in US schools.

I do not believe there is any gender bias in the selection of cases for inclusion on Corpun.com. Of course, there might be a gender bias in the reporting of cases by the news media. Perhaps cases involving girls being paddled are considered more newsworthy than when boys get done. The same may apply when moms rather than dads complain.

My impression is that far more mums than fathers complain about paddlings and girls are less accepting than boys. Jenny’s explanation for this above is a best only a partial explanation, and a worrying one.
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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 05, 2013#28
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Isn’t that exactly what one would expect?

Almost every society encourages boys and men to be stoical and fearless while allowing girls and women to express emotions freely.

Young children of both sexes will run crying to their parents when hurt but that response to pain and suffering tends to be knocked out of boya very quickly indeed, not only by parents but also by peers who have learned that it’s not an appropriate response.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Feb 05, 2013#29
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

OK, that’s fair enough. I think my next observation would be about this remark:

It’s the word many that attracts my attention here. In my opinion, the words “many” and “few” have meaning only when making comparisons, where you compare like with like. For instance, does 1000 people constitute “many”? Yes, if you’re talking about the number of people attending a concert of classical music, because normally rather fewer than 1000 people attend such concerts. But no, if you’re talking about the number of people attending a premier league football match, because normally rather more than 1000 people attend such events.

That’s why I’d take issue with the earlier comment

I really don’t think there’s much point in talk about the numbers in this way. It’s like saying that many people in the world are murdered each year. That’s an absolute assertion rather than a comparative one, and I don’t see that it tells you very much. It’s also true that many more people are murdered each year in the USA than in the UK: that’s now a comparison, but it’s not comparing like with like, because the population of the USA is much greater than the population of the UK. The important comparison is the murder rate per year (say, number of murders per million people). When we hear that the murder rate in the USA is significantly higher than the murder rate in the UK, we feel that we’re being told something significant and that further investigation is needed.

So, returning to the suggestion that a person who derives sexual pleasure from hurting children is a sexual pervert, one might ask (admittedly without hope of getting an answer supported by evidence) whether in the period, say, 1950-1980 there were proportionally more such people employed as teachers than in the general population; and also whether in that same period there were proportionally more employed as teachers in England than in Scotland, given the difference in the nature of CP application in these two countries.
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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 05, 2013#30
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I’ve given up discussion and debate on this site.

It used to be fun but, with the best will in the world, it isn’t any more.

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neilfrommanc
276
2
Feb 05, 2013#31
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Actually I think that BOYS were at far, far more risk of being punished by a “pervert” who was getting off on it than girls were, simply because there was a lot MORE CP dished out to boys than girls, especially in boarding schools which were a whole seedy microcosm, and also that if female teachers got their thrills from whacking lads nobody would suspect or accuse them of anything beyond being “a bit strict”. And parents were far less likely to bring their sons’ punishments into the light of unwelcome public attention than their daughters.

But if there was no inappropriate sexual contact and the whacking was within parameters did it really matter in the end what the teacher got out of it – most kids were only concerned about their own “end”!
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Feb 05, 2013#32
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Most of our teachers got some sort of satisfaction from using the cane or at least did not find the chore distastful. They included some of our most popular teachers. The main thing was that canings were “fair”. The concept of fairness is difficult to define but is well understood by most school children.
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Feb 06, 2013#33
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I can’t comment on your school but that wasn’t true in mine. Misbehaviour by girls was just as common as that by boys so we received the cane just as much.

It’s also possible that we’re looking at things the wrong way around. Doctor Dominum has claimed that using CP with girls can increase misbehaviour (presumably amongst girls). It might have the same effect on boys. If so, rather than boys being caned more because they misbehaved more, boys misbehaved more because they were caned more.

I never told my parents when I got the cane or slipper. I doubt I’d have got much sympathy if I had but I don’t think I’d have got an additional punishment either. I was never punished excessively so I can’t be sure what I would have done if I had been but I might have complained to my parents.

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Feb 06, 2013#34
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

He had his mother’s permission to attend the performance of the play. That is the only factor that concerns the school. If he deceived his mother to obtain that permission, that was a matter for her to deal with. As de Wolf has pointed out, by taking the action you did, you usurped her authority as a parent. If I had been she, I would have been absolutely furious! I find it hard to believe you would show that same disrespect for a father but I accept your word that you would.

It was that attitude in the UK that forced Grace Campbell and Jane Cosans to take legal action, leading to the ECHR judgment that using CP against parents’ wishes breached their rights. All that was necessary was for parents to be given the right to exempt their children from CP but headteachers argued that having some children exempt would be unworkable. The argument was clearly dishonest because several schools already had policies exempting approximately half their pupils. As a result of headteachers’ intransigence in this matter, all SCP was eventually banned.
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Feb 06, 2013#35
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Perverts female ones, felt safer targeting boys too because they were less likely to complain and, if they did, were unlikely to be believed – “everyone knows” (wrongly) only girls can be sexually abused and women can’t be abusers.

As most women are heterosexual it would be just as reasonable, as you said in your earlier post, to claim that if a female head canes more boys than girls it’s because she sought out male students to punish because she’s a pervert. There are several anecdotes to support such a claim too. Especially in schools where they were exempt from CP, girls would engineer situations with the intention of getting boys caned. There are also far more report of female teachers punishing boys and letting girls off for similar offences than there are of male teachers punishing girls and letting boys off.

As I’ve said before, provided I was being punished for something I did, it didn’t matter whether the teacher enjoyed slippering me or not. It would have been totally wrong, of course, for a teacher to use CP with an innocent child solely to derived sexual pleasure from doing. I’m not so certain in the case of a teacher choosing to use CP rather than some other punishment for a genuine offence. Personally, I wouldn’t have minded because I preferred to get it over with but one could make a valid case to object.

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Guest
Feb 06, 2013#36
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Jenny is absolutely right , misogyny ruled in British schools in the era of cp- especially so in single sex boys schools. My mother didn’t approve of single sex education OR corporal punishment. Short of sending me hundreds of miles away to board , and pay shed loads of money she didn’t have, there was no local alternative. all the local independent and grammar schools were single sex, and there were no ‘proper’ comprehensives ( ie those that were not secondary moderns with a changed nameplate ).

Years after I left school she admitted to me that her worst moments in my teenage years were going to school to deal with any issue , no matter how trivial.For example she had some worries about what she saw as inappropriate subjects for me at ‘O’ level as it was then, but says that despite being a well educated businesswoman , she was treated , no patronised, with the line ‘ we know what we are doing , don’t trouble your pretty little head about it ‘ . things got so bad with the headmaster that in my remove year (13/14)she even got Jackie who was them teaching in the girls school to have a word, but she was told politely but firmly to ‘butt out’ the Head point blank refused to discuss my academic issues with her , even on the express request of my sole parent!

Parents evenings were no easier. My mum made friends with a another lady ( a consultant radiologist) whose son sat close to me in class- she was also a single mum. They both felt equally patronised and ‘got at ‘. When two parents or a father went in to see staff they would be in five or more minutes,when they went in they were both just told ‘everything’s ok’ and were out in a split second.All the staff were male, and , of course , even the year when Jackie ‘subbed’ as deputy head, she was told she ‘wasn’t required’ at parents evenings. She had suggested it might be helpful for a woman to be there, because of one parent families etc, but was firmly told ‘ this is our school, we have our values, and ways of doing things. Your presence might muddy the waters!!!!!!!!

That’s how it was then. But it has changed now. So Doc’s view about this woman and her son fits that framework very neatly. SHE may have given her son permission , but of course Doc’s authority – which he sees as emerging from ‘in loco parentis’ was SUPERIOR in weight to the ‘parent ‘. He was male : she was a mere woman. She didn’t understand the school policy. Odd, I though the one thing the school made absolutely clear to every parent ( under the treat of having their tongues cut out or some such draconian threat) was that the school caned from breaches of discipline, and EVERYONE accepted and supported the schools right to do these things within a framework of absolute secrecy.

It is just a thousand pities that the boy concerned hadn’t developed the ‘balls’ to tell doc where to put his cane , and walked out .A school that acts with that sort of arrogance is , in my mind, an unhealthy environment for developing critical thinking amongst its pupils. As De wolf says :

I would have viewed your position as arrogant, and an attempt to undermine his mother’s authority.

Well isn’t arrogance the authentic hallmark of the male public school system ? And, as Lotta implies ‘Big boys don’t cry’. Actually its a form of brainwashing , not the development of critical thought processes. So ‘good fathers won’t complain however hard their kids are thrashed. that’s the way of the world. Thank God for the sanity of the ECHR in the Scottish case …..funny thing opt outs had been present in the ?states for over a 100 years ………but they ‘couldn’t work’ in the UK. no they redressed the balance in favour of parents and against the unfettered tyranny of school authority.
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Lotta_Nonsense
374
Feb 06, 2013#37
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

No, you haven’t, Neil.

It’s just that it’s very difficult to conduct a group discussion in writing, especially when fake headmasters and fake ex-schoolgirls insist on muddying the waters with their entirely imaginary experiences.

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willyeckaslike
Feb 06, 2013#38
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In my opinion, no parent should ever make their specific SCP concerns and most especially their child’s bruised posterior public except in the most exceptional cases. To do otherwise will compound the harm done to the child. Disputes and concerns about a school’s CP policy or practices are best discussed privately. Parents and schools need to be allies not enemies. Children should never be used as pawns.
On the subject of teachers getting something out of it. That could well be, and not always with a sexual element in it. Eleven and twelve year olds can be bratty, and not necessarily a real bad lot, it is just a part of growing up. That part of growing up can be annoying to a teacher that is trying their best to educate a bratty rabble. So discounting sadistic teachers whose first response was severe corporal punishment, an ordinary reasonable teacher could well be fed up to the back teeth of pupils deliberately and repeatedly crossing the line. In an instance like that or similar, a teacher could well find it satisfying to whack a few bottoms, both girls and boys, with a slipper, to restore some sort of order, and exact some sort of satisfying retribution. In the majority cases in my experience, any girl or boy that gets the slipper is not traumatised, just goes away with a hot bot that acts as a sharp reminder to behave.

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JennyBr
1,776
2
Feb 06, 2013#39
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Why do you find my (possible) explanation a “worrying one”?
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dominum
1,407
Feb 06, 2013#40
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

As the boy’s mother was involved shouldn’t she, or the boy’s father have punished the boy?

It would have been difficult for the boy’s father to have punished him, as he was deceased.

What you did was a total disregard for the mother’s authority over her son. Surely it should have been left to the mother’s discretion? In my eyes, had I been the boy’s father, I would have viewed your position as arrogant, and an attempt to undermine his mother’s authority.

Jenny:

Both of you are taking an overly simplistic view of what was, actually, quite a complex situation. You also, in my view, probably have little or no understanding of either Australian education law as it applied, and the expectations that go with it, things that I have to understand.

I am not in a position to take simplistic views of a case. I am not allowed to ignore the law. I am not allowed to ignore the professional implications of the law.

Let’s start with the basics – the boy’s mother fully endorsed my decision to punish her son. She did not feel usurped. The only complaint she had – and it was a valid one – is that she felt we had failed to ensure that she understood the school’s expectations properly. Her son lead her to believe that what he was doing was entirely acceptable to the school, otherwise she would not have allowed him to do it. While she certainly had every right to decide that her son should be allowed to attend the play rather than attend the walk, she would have made a different decision if she had understood that the school viewed the walk as a compulsory activity, rather than as the voluntary activity her son, falsely, told her it was. When she understood what had happened, she agreed with and endorsed my decision to punish her son. He had deceived her, and he had deceived us.

The boy knowingly deceived his mother and he knowingly deceived the school. When I decided to cane him, the main thing that made me decide to do so, was the fact that he had numerous opportunities to tell us that he would not be present on the day of the sponsored walk, and he deliberately and knowingly, lead everybody involved to believe that he would be there. He was a Prefect and he was expected to be available for mustering and marshalling before and after the walk, and for exercising a degree of on the spot supervision through the walk. He was rostered to perform these duties, and the fact he wasn’t there, meant somebody else had to take on his responsibilities.

If he had told us he was not going to be there because he was attending a play with his mother’s permission and endorsement, there would have been no major problem. Personally, if he had told me and I had been aware of all the facts involved – that he had misrepresented the position of the school, and manipulated his mother, I would have been annoyed at that, but as the ticket had been purchased, and there was a clear link between him attending the play and his studies (it was the play he was studying in English that year), I would not have done anything to stop him. It’s worth noting, though, that in such a case I probably would not have had any idea of the misrepresentation and manipulation, because I would not have looked into it in the detail I wound up doing. I simply would have assumed his mother had made her decision with a full understanding of what was going on. So, I wouldn’t have even been annoyed. But the fact is, he didn’t have to tell me – planned absences are not directly reported to the Deputy Headmaster, the appropriate person for him to tell would have been his Tutor, who, in all probability, would have enthusiastically endorsed the idea of him attending a mind expanding play, rather than spend a day walking along a beach.

He chose to deceive us and to mislead us. He even submitted his sponsorship form. That deception was the major reason I decided he deserved to be punished.

I do not believe that I usurped his mother’s authority. He had deceived the school. He had broken school rules. And when I questioned him, he revealed that he had mislead and manipulated his mother.

All I knew when I called him on the day after the walk was that he was one of three senior boys who had an unexplained absence for the day of the walk – he had not attended school and he had not provided a note from a parent or guardian explaining his absence (note – if he had brought a note to school from his mother that had said “Please excuse my son’s absence on….”, he would not have been listed as an unexplained absence, and I would not have asked to see him – as he had lead his mother to believe the entire day was optional, he could not then ask her to write him an excuse note for missing it). His initial response to my query as to where he had been the previous day (or it may have been the previous Friday) was to act puzzled as if he couldn’t understand why I was asking the question. Eventually he admitted he had been absent with his mother’s knowlege. I asked him if he had a note (sometimes a boy has one and has just forgotten to hand it in), and he said, no, so I asked him if he thought his mother would be home, so I could phone her (a phone call can also authorise and explain an absence, although we prefer a note). At this point, he became nervous and asked me not to phone his mother. That’s when I started questioning him properly and gradually got the full story out of him and also when I decided to treat the matter as truancy, and cane him.

Note – he did not want me to phone his mother. He knew that once she had all the facts she would be angry with him, and that she would also, probably, fully endorse the decision to cane him. At that time, I decided not to try and call his mother – and I will admit that that might have been a mistake on my part with hindsight – largely because I didn’t see much point in getting him in trouble at home as well as at school.

He had the normal rights of appeal available to him, if he believed I was being unfair. He chose not to exercise any of them. I caned him. Again, I will acknowledge – with hindsight – that I regret giving him six of the best – given his previous good record, three or four strokes, would have been enough – but, at that time, I had no easy way available to me of checking a boy’s previous record. I think the offence, committed by a Prefect, deserved six of the best, but I could have been more lenient.

After talking to other staff members, by the way, I did wind up contacting his mother – other concerns were raised that meant I felt I had to. That’s part of the reason why, with hindsight, I wish I had previously – things would have been awkward, if she hadn’t endorsed a decision that had already been taken and acted on, but she did.

Did I usurp her authority? No, I do not believe so. I punished him, primarily and overwhelmingly, for his deceptions at school. The fact he had also deceived his mother only meant that he couldn’t defend what he had done, by claiming permission or endorsement from a ‘higher authority’ to do so. If his mother had – with full knowledge and understanding – endorsed him disobeying the school rules, knowing that is what she was doing, I would not have punished him. But that was not the situation.

Now, the above is intended to address my first point – that I think the issue was far more complex and nuanced than either de Wolf or Jenny seem to want to believe. Now to get onto the specific legal issues involved, which also matter.

The Headmaster of an independent school is in loco parentis. So are any teachers he deputises (and a Deputy Headmaster is, more or less, automatically deputised, hence the name). Now under Australian law (which relies on decisions made in British courts prior to 1901, and on decisions made in Australian courts, since that date), in loco parentis actually means pretty much what it says – a teacher in loco parentis is in place of a parent, with all the power, authority, and duties of a parent (albeit one of a very large family). It does not mean, as some people suppose, that parents delegate their own authority to the school. The teacher (from now on when I say teacher in this message, please assume I mean ‘teacher in an independent school with delegated in loco parentis authority from their Headmaster’, because I don’t want to keep saying it in such complex terms) has the powers of a parent simply because the law gives them those powers – not because the child’s “real parent” has delegated them.

When you suggest I might have ‘disregarded’, ‘undermined’, or ‘usurped’ a mother’s authority, you need to understand that in law, whether I agree with it or not (and in general, I do not), my authority in loco parentis is explicitly and completely totally disconnected from her authority as a parent. As far as the law is concerned, if I form a belief that acting in loco parentis requires me to do something in the best interests of the child, I am actually supposed to do that – even if I know the child’s parents would disagree.

An example – say I have a Jehovah’s Witness student who is injured at school and is taken to hospital and the parents cannot be contacted for permission to treat the child, and so I am contacted in loco parentis and asked for permission to operate even though it may require a blood transfusion. I know the parents beliefs forbid blood transfusions. I know that if they were contacted they would refuse permission – and their right to do so is a protected right under their religion. Do I have the right to refuse permission for surgery in such a case? No, I don’t because my authority in loco parentis is not derived from theirs, it’s separate to it. My duty is to make the same decision for the child in my care, that I would make if he was my own child. I’d approve the surgery. I’d have to.

(Note, this only applies if the parents can’t be contacted – if they can be, their wishes would certainly have priority.)

There have been cases here, in the past, where schools have punished students for smoking with their parents full permission – some of these cases have even involved students who were smoking on a weekend at a private party. The law has been quite clear in such cases – the parents permission did not give the child permission to break school rules and the school has every right to punish them.

Now, that’s the law. The law clearly gives me the right to punish a student who breaks a school rule, even if their parent have them permission to do so. My duty is separate from the parent’s duty. Now, would I normally punish a student for doing something their parent gave them permission to do? Under many circumstances I would not – just because the law says I can, doesn’t meant it says I must (which is different from the blood transfusion case, where I have an active and positive duty to the health of the child, and if their life is at risk, it’s a very high standard of duty). And, as I have said, in the case of the play versus the walk, if the boy had been honest with us and with his mother, I would not have punished him.

But given the facts of that case, if I had decided not to punish him, I would have viewed that decision as one that undermined and usurped her authority as a parent. Given that I knew he had mislead and manipulated his mother, I would have felt that I was endorsing his manipulation of his mother if I had not acted. I was not seeking to usurp her authority in any way, shape, or form. I felt – and I still feel – that I was acting to send a clear message to him that he was not going to be allowed to get away with using what he claimed as the authority of the school to manipulate his mother.

Remember – he had lead her to believe that we regarded this walk as voluntary – to get what he wanted, he had deliberately misrepresented the rules of the school. Allowing him to use or misuse those rules to manipulate his mother would have truly undermined her authority.

And, yes, I would have acted in exactly the same manner if I had been dealing with a father who had been mislead, as I did with this mother. There was nothing sexist in my decision at all.

Prof N says:

The fact she did not understand the school policy had nothing to do with the fact that she was a woman. It was to do with the fact that she had no experience of independent schooling, or even of Australian schooling. She came from a different cultural background, where, it seems, such activities were normally voluntary.

Such could just as easily have been true of a father.

Odd, I though the one thing the school made absolutely clear to every parent ( under the treat of having their tongues cut out or some such draconian threat) was that the school caned from breaches of discipline, and EVERYONE accepted and supported the schools right to do these things within a framework of absolute secrecy.

First of all, we are talking about events that occurred over twenty years ago now, when the environment was a bit different. Not that you are representing the modern environment accurately either, but things were different then.

Second of all, she was certainly aware that the school caned if boys broke rules – the issue was that her son lead her to believe that he wasn’t breaking any rules.

Thirdly, while you can lead a horse to water, you can’t make them drink. Her husband had chosen this school for their son, and she’d gone along with the decision. When he died, her son continued at this school, but she, personally, had very little involvement with the school. Ninety five percent of parents would not have fallen for the lies her son told her. Most would have realised that it was utter nonsense that an activity on a school day was considered voluntary. Quite a few would have been quite happy to give their permission for their son to skip it to do something they regarded as more educationally useful (like attend such a play) but they would have understood what they were doing – she did not.

Twenty years ago, our school culture was more homogenous than it is today (although less than it had been twenty years before that). We made assumptions then about parents understanding the culture of the school that we don’t make anymore. We spend more time today on orientation for parents than we used to – but this mother hadn’t even attended what was offered then. She generally didn’t even attend things like Parent-Teacher interviews (and because her son’s behaviour and academic performance was good up until his final year, she was not one of those who was specifically asked to attend them). When this happened, she was annoyed that we had not made more efforts to make sure she understood the precise culture of the school – and she was right, there was more we could have done but there was also a lot more she could have done.

It is just a thousand pities that the boy concerned hadn’t developed the ‘balls’ to tell doc where to put his cane , and walked out .

You insult him. There was nothing about this boy that lacked courage. He didn’t walk out because he accepted and agreed he had done something he should not have done, and he’d been caught. He had all the normal avenues of appeal available to him, and he chose not to use them.

In retrospect, years later, once he was a parent, he had some concerns about the matter relating to the problem of his mother not being fully informed and put on record the fact that he wants to be informed on any occasion there are even minor issues with his son – a position we respect if parents ask it – but as a child, he was happy to exploit her ignorance and that is exactly what he tried to do.

And if I had let him get away with it, I think that would have been undermining her.

But go ahead and take the simple minded, non nuanced, simplistic views. Some of us don’t have that luxury. The real world with real children and real families isn’t a simple one.

And do you really want schools that treat every case as if it is a simple one where the specific circumstances can be ignored and the simple solution is the only solution?

There were some minor aspects of this case, I think, with hindsight, I could have handled better. But I think I got in 99% right. If I’d handled it the way I think the simple approach would have done it, I doubt we’d have even been half right in this case, although in a lot of other ones, it might have been.

I don’t often discuss the simple cases – because, frankly, they are not interesting.

Jenny is absolutely right , misogyny ruled in British schools in the era of cp- especially so in single sex boys schools.

and

Well isn’t arrogance the authentic hallmark of the male public school system ?

You know, I really find it quite objectionable to find myself, more or less being accused of sexism, arrogance, and misogyny in a modern or recent context, because some people are allowing the way schools were decades ago in another country to colour their views of what they are like more recently in this one.

Nothing in this case involved sexism, nor misogyny, nor, in my view, arrogance – although on the last one I’ll concede there might have been some movement in that direction. I would not have dealt with this case any differently if the issues had related to the boy deceiving a father, as opposed to a mother, or to two parents as opposed to a single parent. In this case, because of the individuals involved, the father had had a better understanding of what was and wasn’t expected in an Australian independent school than the mother did, but that could just as easily been true in the opposite direction.

Incidentally, there is a phenomenon here where single mothers are often choosing schools like ours because they want their sons to have male adult influences, and they actually want us to take on something of a substitute paternal role, to the limited extent that we can, and in such cases, we will make some effort to do that. But that was not the case with this boy and his mother had expressed no such desire.

There are occasions in the past, where, I would agree, I – wrongly – gave the views of fathers more priority than the views of mothers, and there was sexism – both on my part, and on the part of the school more generally – involved in that. But that was in the 1960s and early 1970s, and certainly was not the case by the time this incident occurred.
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Guest
Feb 07, 2013#41
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I think with respect it is the school that insulted a 17/18 year old prefect by purporting that it was appropriate in ANY circumstances to cane him. My view on this is very clear. At this age caning is totally inappropriate , and it was in my opinion unfortunate that he didn’t see this and inform you of this fact. The image of a older man thrashing a younger man in a situation such as this has nothing to commend it , let alone to be admired.

This might well have happened without much question in the 50’s , but by the late 80’s /early 90’s such a situation would have been seen by most educational psychologists as anachronistic to say the least. The fact that the school still blundered on with this ritual with a student of such as age leads me to the comment

Well isn’t arrogance the authentic hallmark of the male public school system ?

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dominum
1,407
Feb 07, 2013#42
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Well, I think you’re wrong. If a 17 year old chooses to deceive his school and his mother so he can evade the rules of the school for his own personal benefit, I think it’s appropriate to punish him. At the time, the cane was very much the accepted punishment in cases of truancy and he knew that. I could have looked for some other punishment, but, quite honestly, any other punishment I gave him would have been one that he was both more likely to resent, and which would have been more likely to have negative consequences for him. And, incidentally, only a couple of years before this, when we had trialled not using the cane with senior boys, it was the boys who asked us to reverse that decision. We were also told that there were issues of age discrimination with such a policy.

You come from a background of teaching people who are, mostly, explicitly young adults, so it’s not surprising that’s how you view people of this age. But I come from a background of teaching children.

Your position is a valid one, but I believe mine is as well. And I do not believe my position is arrogant. I believe it’s well founded in an understanding of both adolescent and child psychology – while 17 years old may be close to physically adult, they are typically nowhere near psychologically, emotionally, intellectually, or mentally adult – and in a society that insists they are still attending the same schools as 12 year olds as a default part of their existence, they are also nowhere near culturally and socially adult, and I think that is a perfectly reasonable, defensible, and common sense position.

There are legal issues to be navigated – he was not a man, he was a boy. He was legally still a child and legally still a schoolchild. And, to a great extent, I think that is the only way it is appropriate for a teacher to view such a person. All sorts of problems develop when teachers start pretending that schoolchildren are adults. That’s when you are far more likely to get inappropriate relationships developing, and inappropriate behaviours. But even if I didn’t believe that, that’s the way I was expected to view the situation from a legal perspective. He was a child not an adult and I’m not permitted to forget that or ignore that position under the law.

I was no freer to decide not to cane him because I was dealing with a 17 year old versus a 14 year old, than I would have been not to cane somebody because they were a girl rather than a boy.

I actually find it somewhat ironic and even somewhat amusing to find I am simultaneously castigated on this forum for insisting there is value and commonsense in sex differentiation while being challenged because in the judgement of some I don’t support or engage in age differentiation to whatever extent they would like me to.
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de Wolf
Feb 07, 2013#43
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

As the boy’s father is sadly deceased the boy’s mother had double the responsibility, bringing up her son.
As you were a figure of authority she likely felt obliged to fully endorse your decision to cane her son, when in fact
you possibly manipulated the situation with her. She was involved in the issue, it was her place to deal with it
whatever course of action that involved. You acted without consultation with her on the matter anyway.

There appears a lack of communication in your school system, because you knew prior to seeing the boy of his alleged offence.
If the school had an adequate system in place you would have the boy’s record before you. That is unprofessional at the
very leased. It may have been of no consequence anyway, as you probably made the decision to give the six stroke caning
regardless.

Your quote of “in loco parentis” refer to being in the place of a parent, not taking over the role completely. You even gave
an example when stating you would sanction a blood transfusion for a student who is a Jehovah’s Witness in the event of
being unable to contact his parent’s. So that certainly would be a case of “in loco parentis” but with the parents’ being
available their wishes would apply, but more to the point, apply by law.

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dominum
1,407
Feb 07, 2013#44
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I do not believe I manipulated the situation. I do not believe she felt any obligation to endorse what I had done. I believe she endorsed the decision I took because she agreed with the action I took. She understood her son had broken the rules of the school and that is what he was punished for at school. If she, also and separately, felt it was appropriate for her to discipline her son at home for his deceptions directed towards her, that would be entirely her right and her decision, but his behaviour at home was not the only issue. He had broken school rules.

It’s interesting to see people projecting emotions and motivations onto other people. I have people claiming sexims was behind my actions when it had no part in them at all. A courageous boy is described as ‘lacking balls’ because he accepted punishment he agreed he deserved rather than refuse it, and now it’s suggested that the likely explanation for a mother backing the decision of a school to discipline her son was because she was manipulated rather than she actually agreed that dishonesty on her son’s part deserved to be punished.

The last sentence is correct – I did act without consulting her at the time, and with hindsight, given that after further examination of what was going on I decided it was best to contact her, that was a choice I regret making. But at the time I made it, it seemed to me to be the best approach – later information changed my mind on that.

This incident occurred about twenty years ago. Back then, getting a boys record was far more complicated than it has become with almost everything being computerised and a computer on every teachers desk, and I only went to the trouble of getting a file if I was dealing with a matter I considered serious, or especially complicated. We could have done better, but that was the way it was back then.

When the boy was asked to see me, I actually did not believe it was likely he had committed an offence at all. My assumption was that he would have a perfectly reasonable explanation for his unexplained absence (and that’s all it was at this point). I expected him to either say that he had forgotten to hand in the note that explained his absence, or that he had forgotten to bring a note, in which case I would have tried to call his mother and either got her to explain the absence over the phone, or if I couldn’t get hold of her, asked him to bring in a note the next day. This is what happened with both the other boys who were in the same situation. It was only when he became evasive and then nervous about me calling his mother that I started to think he had actually done something he shouldn’t. And through discussion I found out what was going on.

It may have been of no consequence anyway, as you probably made the decision to give the six stroke caning regardless.

If I had had his full record available to me, I probably would have given him a less severe caning but that’s about the only difference it would have made.

Your quote of “in loco parentis” refer to being in the place of a parent, not taking over the role completely.

No, you’ve missed the point. The principle of in loco parentis as it applies in independent school situations does, more or less, say that we take over the role unless the parents are actually actively exercising their role.

You even gave an example when stating you would sanction a blood transfusion for a student who is a Jehovah’s Witness in the event of being unable to contact his parent’s. So that certainly would be a case of “in loco parentis” but with the parents’ being available their wishes would apply, but more to the point, apply by law.

The point I was making that even if I know what the parents would want I am not expected to, and indeed would be failing in my duty in loco parentis if I based what I do on what they would want. When acting in loco parentis I am expected to exercise my judgement as to what is best for the child – even if I know their parents would disagree. The distinction is important because a lot of people seem to believe it’s a delegated power from parents. Here, at least, it isn’t. It’s a power and duty that exists independently from their authority. .
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Guest
Feb 07, 2013#45
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In my opinion, no parent should ever make their specific SCP concerns and most especially their child’s bruised posterior public except in the most exceptional cases. To do otherwise will compound the harm done to the child. Disputes and concerns about a school’s CP policy or practices are best discussed privately. Parents and schools need to be allies not enemies. Children should never be used as pawns.
Doc, the reason I hold you to a higher standard of account on the issue of corporal punishment is because you are a practising, or what we would call in this country a ‘chartered’ psychologist.Whilst there are all sorts of views about the punishment of younger children , and whilst today it is true that pro spankers are in a minority, it is still, for children of that age certainly, a professionally valid position to hold . On the treatment of late teenagers however here is absolute agreement as far as ?I am aware by all professional bodies of psychologists in the developed world , and even many in the periphery ( where they exist) that corporal punishment of adolescents is not a process to be encouraged. Indeed I believe your own professional body in Australia takes the position of formally opposing any use of corporal punishment.

Therefore, whilst advocating a minority position is fine, one must question why an institution such as a school clung onto a ‘dubious’ practice by any professional measure ….what in other words was the driving force which made this position so ‘vital’ to the schools interest during a period of time when others had and were abandoning the practice ?

The answer to this I believe comes largely from the internal reinforcement of views WITHIN the institution , and as it were the circling of the wagons against outside hostility. We see how this operates n a community basis in the bible belt of the USA, but within one or two schools , existing as a counter culture to the norm as recognised by the state , even to the extent of building the highest possible castle walls to stop the flow of information , and yet being unwilling to argue publicly in your professional forums for your position ( unlike in this forum ) ? This brings to mind the paranoia of Jonestown, which I am sure is not the appropriate metaphor for an institution involving so many intelligent people.

So we have positions which differ- yes – and that’s fine. but what I seek in vain in your position is some validated current research which shows how your approach over the last say 20 years has been more effective than the mainstream , when replicated in independent institutions similar to your own. For I neither see evidence of those schools which no longer beat in the independent sector having massive discipline problems , not do I see any public argument for a return to the old ways , certainly not from educationalists and psychology professionals.

Asserting that your beliefs work is one thing ; demonstrating that they work or were a necessary pre condition of maintaining discipline is another entirely. And as a self declared empiricist surely that’s what you need to do?

In this case you neither in my mind show necessary cause for the punishment , not demonstrate its unique efficacy .There were other far more positive and appropriate ways available by which to achieve your objective .
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
3
Feb 07, 2013#47
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

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HH2012
836
Feb 07, 2013#48
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In my opinion, no parent should ever make their specific SCP concerns and most especially their child’s bruised posterior public except in the most exceptional cases. To do otherwise will compound the harm done to the child. Disputes and concerns about a school’s CP policy or practices are best discussed privately. Parents and schools need to be allies not enemies. Children should never be used as pawns.
Hi prof.n, the discussion on both sides is for me quite fascinating, as I am open to all perspectives and perhaps learn something new in the process. I generally don’t comment as my opinion is just that, and really doesn’t add anything meaningful. I think anyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter what that is. But I am always looking for points of fact, and would like to comment on some items you asserted above. (So that you know where I’m coming from, I am against SCP but for different, and I believe more valid, reasons than the typical ones rightly or wrongly cited, but I am very much for the retention of parental CP in a “transitory and triffling” manner). So please don’t take offence as I hold you in high respect, and especially because you can calmly and rationally debate, which is a skill not everyone is capable of!

You stated,”<em>whilst today it is true that pro spankers are in a minority</em>” and “<em>whilst advocating a minority position is fine</em>”. Are you referring explicitly and only to SCP (because you mention pro-spankers)? If you are, then I agree this is true, that the support for SCP (North America, Australia, EU and UK) is in the great minority. If you are referring to parental, I would state this is empirically untrue. This is one of the “truths” the anti-CP’ers like to make people believe, but it’s actually not the case…

There are many recent surveys that indicate in the area of 80% parental usage where allowed. And even where criminalized and banned as in many EU countries, if you read the footnotes to specific countries on the GIEACPC (Global Initiative…) site, you will find that a not-insignificant number respond to pollsters that they still smack their child, and are basically admitting to a criminal act! Italy as a random example (Supreme Court ban 1996)… “<em>In a 2009 study, 63% of parents of children aged 3-5, 55% of parents of children aged 6-10 … said they had slapped their child.</em>” I would never admit to anyone doing something if it was banned, for fear of authorities knocking on the door .. and for this reason, the real usage rates <em>must necessarily </em>be materially higher to those reported. I think these people are not stupid, but they are simply unaware of the law (these bans are often imposed without the requisite widely-publicized education campaigns over all media to change opinion, educate on workable alternatives, and inform what is no longer acceptable practice).

Second is Efficacy, “<em>In this case you neither in my mind … demonstrate its unique efficacy”. </em>Frankly, this is an area I do know something about as I have analysed real-time data from various unrelated schools and they consistently show repeatable patterns. (I am talking about schools where I believe CP <em>was</em> a last resort and used judiciuously and sparingly, ie . 25 per-annum incidents vs 1,000 enrollment. These are not situations where it is overused, inappropriately or incompetently meted, which loses effcacy and simply creates unnecessary harm). They also consistently show results in certain areas that are completely counter to what the casual observer would think or “what is obvious is rarely true”… and I’ll give one shortly.

First, social science is like smoking! Why? Because scientifically conclusive answers do not exist, but empirical data undeniably links cause and effect. ie – There is no scientific proof that smoking will kill you but there is a mountain of empirical data showing that the more and the longer a person smokes, the higher the likelyhood (occurrence rate) of certain diseases versus non-smokers. Yet, some non-smokers do die of smoking-related disease, and some smokers die ingood health, but from other causes. There are no absolutes. And despite all this repeatable observation, Tobacco Executives may maintain to this day, “but there is no scientific proof..”. this should be very remeniscent of semantical games in CP debates.

The findings. The best way to measure the efficacy of any behaviour-adjustment method is through recidivism analysis, but then compare the figures to what? I don’t have such figures for standing in the corner or taking the TV away for a weeek. The best comparable for a severe sanction (CP) of a minor is a severe sanction on an adult. We don’t have capitol punishment and even if we did, recidivism is theoretically zero, since the offendor is dead after the first offence! However, we can look at incarceration and those rates. SCP records here showed (and there are a variety of ways to compare and I have used…) that SCP was anywhere from a minimum of 1.25X as effective, and up to FOUR times as effective as imprisonment. Considering that adults are more amenable to reason than minors, and that virtually all the same arguments banning SCP apply to banning imprisonment, I am frankly genuinely surprised that the “enlightened and progressive” countries espousing reason over deterrence haven’t long-ago abolished prisons. It is the next logical step based on their philosophy. SCP used judiciously, is undeniably effective: a mountain of repeatable results from real-time data consistently shows this. I think any claims that it is ineffective (as the Council of Europe specifically makes) is simply wishful thinking to promote theer agenda but it is in denial of real empirical data. (I believe ex-tobacco executives have infiltrated the Council of Europe).

Efficacy was also analysed on an offence-specific basis, and it seems to work well in some areas but be extremely effective in others. Here’s something completely counterintuitive to anyone who subscribes to the mantra of judiciously applied CP is violence. Bullying: there is a common opinion that you cannot use violence to alter violent behaviour, and in short, exposing a bully to the “violence” of punishment will only increase this behaviour (covered in my book so I won’t rewrite it all here). The data actually shows zero or near-zero recidivism for bullies punished with CP. This is one of the areas that consistently stood out where CP was incredibly effective. That is also supported by empirical world trends, as there are many CP-ban countries (like Denmark and Austria)who’s bullying rates are (according to a WHO study on bullying rates in school) are incredibly higher than where some CP is still allowed.

I debated whether to post this or not. Hope it’s not too long.

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dominum
1,407
Feb 07, 2013#49
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In my opinion, no parent should ever make their specific SCP concerns and most especially their child’s bruised posterior public except in the most exceptional cases. To do otherwise will compound the harm done to the child. Disputes and concerns about a school’s CP policy or practices are best discussed privately. Parents and schools need to be allies not enemies. Children should never be used as pawns.
Doc, the reason I hold you to a higher standard of account on the issue of corporal punishment is because you are a practising, or what we would call in this country a ‘chartered’ psychologist. Whilst there are all sorts of views about the punishment of younger children , and whilst today it is true that pro spankers are in a minority, it is still, for children of that age certainly, a professionally valid position to hold . On the treatment of late teenagers however here is absolute agreement as far as ?I am aware by all professional bodies of psychologists in the developed world , and even many in the periphery ( where they exist) that corporal punishment of adolescents is not a process to be encouraged. Indeed I believe your own professional body in Australia takes the position of formally opposing any use of corporal punishment.

I don’t believe that is the case.

The Australian Psychological Society does not formally oppose corporal punishment, at least not in my judgement, although certain people have – dishonestly in my view – tried to claim that it does. The APS does state in a position paper on bullying a view that corporal punishment is less effective than other methods in dealing with that issue but does not actually say it should not ever be used.

When it come to corporal punishment in schools, the APS last issued a position paper that addressed that subject in 1995, which called for corporal punishment to be abolished in state schools but not private schools (the statement is somewhat ambiguous on this point – it has to be understood in the context of 1995 – at the time the position paper was written, most states had abolished corporal punishment in state schools, but none had done so in private schools, so its reference to ‘those states that have not done so’ could logically only refer to state schools.

To your other points, I do not believe there is ‘absolute agreement’ on the issue of corporal punishment for adolescents among psychological bodies. As I’ve said, the Australian Psychological Society doesn’t really have a position on the issue at all. There is a push within the APS to get a new position statement on the issue of corporal punishment, which would include this, but people have been pushing for it for the last decade without success, precisely because there is strong disagreement about what it should and shouldn’t say. I will certainly concede that there is generally less support for corporal punishment when it comes to adolescents than there is for younger children and further that I actually agree with many of the arguments that justify that position – but only as arguments that apply in general, and not in specific cases.

I do not advocate the use of corporal punishment with all adolescents – any more than I would advocate making all all adolescents take anger management classes. There is a differences between opposing something in general, and supporting its use in particular contexts and situations, and there’s nothing incompatible about the two.

A belief that it is sometimes in the best interests of students, and – more importantly – that the measures that generally replace it have dramatically worse negative effects on students than corporal punishment does.

Many schools have proven willing to simply give up on students and get rid of them rather than actually help them. We decided we consider that unacceptable.

First of all, I do argue about this issue in professional forums on occasion – when I’m allowed to do so, and I don’t get banned for expressing views that are seen as heretical. You mentioned earlier that there’s little recent research into corporal punishment in schools involving adolescents, especially research that suggests positive effects. That’s true enough. But why is it so? Partly, it’s because the academic establishment will not allow such research to be done – I know of several cases here over the last twenty years where local academics wanted to study corporal punishment in independent schools and couldn’t get “ethics” clearance to do the research. Large sections of academia have been captured by the left, especially in the social sciences, and they block research that goes against their political agenda. The same happens in many professional forums.

This brings to mind the paranoia of Jonestown, which I am sure is not the appropriate metaphor for an institution involving so many intelligent people.

As I’ve said, numerous times, I think you, for reasons I can’t quite understand, have a very exaggerated idea of what is going on here – you’ve elevated what I believe are quite sensible positions based around the right to privacy, into some belief in active secrecy. But I also think you fail to understand why we worry so much about the issue of privacy – and a lot of it is because we feel we have to defend ourselves in this way from what I would call an, at times, almost Orwellian mindset on the part of those who would call themselves our opponents.

In a recent Parliamentary debate, our Prime Minister used the word ‘misogyny’ in a way that did not match the dictionary definitions to attack the Leader of the Opposition. It was widely pointed out in the media that her use of the word did not match the dictionary definition.

The result – the Macquarie Dictionary (generally considered the definitive dictionary of Australian English) changed its definition to match the Prime Minister’s useage. It did this within a week of the debate. That is what conditions are like concerning public debate in Australia when somebody goes against the positions of the left wing intellegentsia.

Journalists are being hauled before the courts because they wrote something that ‘offended’ somebody in an affront to freedom of the press. We have a federal government that wants to introduce a body to regulate freedom of the press. In this state, in the last quarter of a century, we have had state governments that banned teachers in state schools from making public statements concerning education, and which denied teachers promotions if they said anything that went against government education policy – thankfully up until now, they’ve never tried imposing those standards on private schools (and in recent times, they’ve been more reasonable with regards to what teachers in government schools can say).

You seem to believe we’re unreasonable – I believe we are doing what is sensible and reasonable in response to the environment around us.

‘Massive’ discipline problems aren’t the standard. I agree there are plenty of schools out there that are maintaining decent discipline standards without using corporal punishment. But I don’t believe that near enough is good enough. If a school can be B+ standard in discipline without corporal punishment, that’s great – but I’d still prefer A standard.

But it isn’t even that simple. Over the last twenty years, I would say that for 90% of the boys in my school, corporal punishment made no huge difference to their behaviour. Other methods worked with them. It might even be 95%. That’s great – but I care about the other 5% as well. For some boys corporal punishment works where other methods don’t (for some of them it doesn’t work) and I believe those boys have the same rights to have the methods that work for them used as everybody else does. I don’t believe it’s acceptable to write off a minority just because the majority is doing well. And if you’re going to have corporal punishment available for that minority, you may as well also use it more widely in cases where – while something else might work, that something else is not actually a better option, just a workable alternative.

I don’t believe I am a self declared empiricist. You keep declaring I’m an empiricist, I don’t really think that I am and I would be surprised if I’ve ever actually declared myself to be one. I think I have somewhat more respect for the emperical method than you do – I’m not an anti-empiricist by any means – but a great deal of my positions in psychology and education are based on things like intuition and life experience, rather than empirical data.

Remember that a lot of my position, even when I talk about research, is actually based around discovering flaws in published research. I believe a huge amount of psychological research is shoddy. I might be more of an empiricist if I didn’t believe that much research was poorly designed and subject to various biases.

One reason I haven’t got actively involved in researching these issues myself is because I am biased, and I am, first of all, not entirely confident any research I did would meet the standards I believe it should meet (I’d sincerely try my best but I believe a lot of the people who produced the studies I believe were flawed were totally sincere as well), and secondly, even if I did successfully produce unbiased research, I’m not sure anybody else would be able to be sure I had.

As I say, it’s you who keeps declaring I’m an empiricist. I’m not. I just don’t reject empiricism to anywhere near the extent you do.

In this case you neither in my mind show necessary cause for the punishment , not demonstrate its unique efficacy.

I’m not trying to demonstrate a ‘unique efficacy’. I don’t believe something needs to be uniquely nor universally effective to be useful.

Paracetamol isn’t ‘uniquely effective’ either – ibuprofen and aspirin, for example, often do the same job it does. Something doesn’t need to be uniquely effective to be a useful option to have available.

There were other far more positive and appropriate ways available by which to achieve your objective

None of which are universally effective. Nor is corporal punishment – but in a situation where there are no universally effective options, the more options you have available the better the chance of finding one that does work.

(Note – I am aware there is another thread which has some posts that warrant a response from me – I hope to get to that thread eventually, but my time is limited at the moment, so I am triaging my responses).
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Feb 07, 2013#50
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

(2002) An opinion piece in “InPsych” Australian Psychological Society bulletin.

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dominum
1,407
Feb 07, 2013#51
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Very unusual that the normally much more conservative medical establishment is more advanced with its policy prescriptions than the psychologists.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Feb 08, 2013#53
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I don’t currently have anything to contribute in this thread, but I do enjoy reading other people’s contributions even if I don’t necessarily agree with them. You are making your contributions less than readily readable by formatting them in something which is putting in hard line feeds which translate into HTML break characters when posted. This sometimes causes your text to unexpectedly start new lines in the middle of sentences.

If you are using Windows and wish to format your posts other than in the ‘Message Text’ box I’d strongly recommend using the WordPad program which comes free with Windows. Compared to most word processing programs it has very few vices as regards making posts here.</div>
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Feb 18, 2013#54
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Not at all, it has nothing to do with sex differences or different responses. It’s due to sexist attitudes that are actually promoted in some schools.

It just means that, if a girl complains to her parents of being beaten at school, they’re more likely to complain than if a boy does so. He’s far more likely to be told not to be such a baby.
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Guest
Feb 18, 2013#56
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I’d generally agree with that, although there is an odd sexism which was very prevalent in my school – I can’t speak for other schools on this .

There it wasn’t the issue of sex of the child ( immaterial as an all boys school ) , but rather the ‘sensibilities of the parents. The school reckoned in its collective patriarchal wisdom that women were far more likely to complain about their sons being beaten than men. Therefore the school had to be particularly ‘sensitive’ around ‘single mothers’ ( even though a good a proportion of those were widows, not ‘single mothers’ in the then socially pejorative Tory grandee sense ). Since most kids in this category came from places ‘bought’ by the LEA, they also had to be careful- alienate the mother and they’ll ask for a transfer, and if the kids here free he is probably bright ( ie the school wants his kudos) .

Ergo the appallingly sexist policies in BOTH schools that children of single mothers will not be caned, because they have single mothers per se.

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neilfrommanc
276
2
Feb 18, 2013#57
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I can believe that single-parent mums would be unhappy with any CP administered to their sons whereas a father might well be a bit more sanguine about it. It would be interesting to know whether, in the cases where girls were subject to CP, whether their fathers would be more likely than mothers to object – the number of girls living with single-parent fathers is quite low.

A sad but hopefully unrelated situation occurred when one of my sons attended a choir in which it turned out that the choirmaster was a paedophile and would abuse selected boys on performances away from home. The selected boys were the ones from single-parent families – for one thing, the boy might well try to hide it so as not to disappoint a mother who was thrilled with her son’s musical progress, and also being a coward the choir master wouldn’t dare abuse a boy whose father he saw at choir events.
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JennyBr
1,776
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Feb 18, 2013#58
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If Dr Dominum’s and KK’s assertions, that differences in how parents voted and different levels of complaints (here and here respectively) were true and indicated a difference between the responses of boys and girls to CP, your school may have recognized a similar difference between the children of single (for whatever reason) mothers and those of two parent families. As your school was single sex (boys), those differences could not be sex related. That policy took no account of those differences anyway, it was based only on a sexist view of the parent.

It’s far more likely parents vote and complain according to their own consciences than any actual difference between girls and boys. That mothers are more likely to complain than fathers are cannot be due to the sex of their children.

There could be some gender(sic) differences, in that boys of single mothers might be more feminine, but, if that were so, there’s no reason to suppose that girls from single parent father led households would not be more masculine.

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KKxyz
3,590
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Feb 18, 2013#59
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I wrote above:

My impression is that there are more complaints about girls being “spanked” at school than boys. If true, it would seem to support Dr D’s claims that boys usually respond better to CP than girls.

This is an assertion? If so, I would assert that my comment is not a forceful or emphatic assertion.

Assert = to state state with assurance, confidence, or force (possibly without providing evidence or supporting information).
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Feb 21, 2013#60
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Corpun File 22758

http://www.corpun.com/ussc5902.htm

The paddle was 12 inches by 3 inches so picture one sixth of the width of the taken off. I think

In only one recent account from the Delta where there was seven as a number of swats given. This was first proffered in this estimable Forum by prof n. It’s three, five and seven that prevail and unlike with the cane six of the best. What are the odds for the oddness of odd numbers of swats.

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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Feb 21, 2013#61
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

The paddle was 12 inches by 3 inches so picture one sixth of the width of the taken off. I think

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KKxyz
3,590
53
Mar 04, 2013#62
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

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Mar 04, 2013#63
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

1. Mother Says Paddling Too Severe .Child-abuse Complaint Is Filed …
news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat…id…sjid…
WINTER PARK – A Winter Park mother has filed a child-abuse complaint against an elementary school following a paddling episode she says left her 9 year-old …

2. Mother of paddled Oklahoma student files police report against …
newsok.com/mother-of-paddled…student…/3708948 – United States
Sep 11, 2012 Mother of paddled Oklahoma student files police report against principal. After considering the complaint about Cordell School District, the …

3. Texas school OKs opposite sex spankings after principal breaks rule …
www.foxnews.com/…/texas-school-distri … es-corpora…
by Joshua Rhett Miller
Sep 25, 2012 … a male administrator paddled two female students, prompting complaints from their mothers who originally approved the disciplinary action.

4. Boy Says School Paddling Broke His Jaw – Courthouse News Service
www.courthousenews.com/2011/08/25/39262.htm
Aug 25, 2011 (CN) – A mother says her son’s assistant principal paddled the 15-year-old boy … 2011, defendant Martin noticed plaintiff,” the complaint states.

5. Morgan County mother calls for principal’s dismissal
www.wate.com/…/morgan-county-mother-calls-for-prin… – United States
Sep 4, 2012 The mother of a Morgan County five-year-old she says her son was bruised after being paddled at school by the principal. … Sandra Hall took her complaint to Tuesday’s Morgan County School Board meeting. “Since last …

6. Morgan principal removed from position after paddling student
www.wate.com/…/morgan-county-principal-removed-fr… – United States
Sep 12, 2012 The boy’s family made a complaint about the paddling to officials. His mother also spoke to the school board about the incident, calling for …

7. Texas Teen ‘Covered in Bruises’ Following Paddling by Her Male …
jezebel.com/…/texas-teen-covered-in-bruises-following-paddling-by-…
Sep 24, 2012 Says Santos’ mother Anna Jorgensen, “I knew school policy was females … Santos is one of two female students who have brought complaints …

8. The Robesonian – State BOE probes paddling complaint
www.robesonian.com/…/article-State-BO … ng-complai…
State BOE probes paddling complaint – LUMBERTON – The mother of a Rowland Middle School student who was bruised after a paddling in September has …

9. Mother of dead Las Vegas boy faced complaints in Illinois – News …
www.lvrj.com/…/mother-of-dead-las-veg … laints-in-…
Dec 7, 2012 The mother of 7-year-old Roderick “RJ” Arrington, who died last week … a paddle and whipped him with a belt for lying about reading a Bible …

10. Principal accused of excessive paddling faces charges of child …
www.wbir.com/…/Principal-accused-of-e … -faces-cha…
Sep 24, 2012 … Elementary School before a parent filed a complaint about her using … Lukas’ mother says Boyd swatted Lukas eight times with a paddle.

___________________________________

Google search: complaint paddling father (About 52,500,000 results) First 10 hits:

1. Paddle to the Amazon: The Ultimate 12, 000-Mile Canoe Adventure …
www.amazon.com … Travel South America Brazil Amazon
Two years and 12,180 miles later, father and son had each paddled nearly …. My only complaints are related to the graphics, the text itself warrants 5 stars.

2. 855 F.2d 560
bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/855/855.F2d.560.88-1029.html
by Court of Appeals, 8th Circuit – 1988 – Cited by 145 – Related articles
Daniel developed bruises on his buttocks as a result of the paddling. Daniel’s father also filed a complaint with the local police department stating that the …

3. Caddo Mills dad complains on teen’s paddling – Topix
www.topix.com/forum/city/caddo-mills-tx … 06ISNPG904
5 posts – 4 authors – 18 Jul 2008
I wholly support Mr. Walden’s complaint against the way his son was disciplined. Jay did not deserve to be paddled at all and most certainly …

4. The School Canoe Tragedy: Schoolchildren’s adventure at sea that …
www.independent.co.uk News UK
… Canoe Tragedy: Schoolchildren’s adventure at sea that turned: Father tells of … the paddlers’ bodies acting like sails, into the broader reaches of Lyme Bay, …

5. Oklahoma City police arrest father of boy doctors said had been …
newsok.com/oklahoma…father…paddled/…/3691283 – United States
Jul 10, 2012 A man was arrested on a child abuse complaint after police were called to … arrested the father of a boy doctors said was excessively paddled.

6. Child Support Enforcement – Sixth Judicial Circuit
www.jud6.org/contactinformation/childsu … ement.html
Second, once the identity of the father is legally determined, the court must … In many cases, a Respondent may already know whether he is the father of the …

7. Judge Detains Father For Paddling Daughter .
news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1901&dat…id…sjid…
Judge detains father for paddling daughter . … The complaint was filed Thurs day by Okaloosa County Judge Mike Jones, who said he thought he saw Schutt …

8. Tributes to ‘father of sea kayaking’ – Jarrow and Hebburn Gazette
www.jarrowandhebburngazette.com News Local News
Nov 17, 2012 Former teacher Derek Hutchinson, who died last month, aged 79, was known as the father of sea kayaking and was the first man to cross the …

9. Father, daughter from Germany paddling length of Mississippi …
www.bemidjipioneer.com/…/father-daughter-germany-paddling-leng…
Father, daughter from Germany paddling length of Mississippi. Monte Draper. Bemidji Pioneer. Saturday, August 27, 2011 – 12:00am. Ute Kolheim and her father …

10. ‘Teen Adventure’ Ends in Presumed Death – Courthouse News Service
www.courthousenews.com/2012/08/23/49560.htm
Aug 23, 2012 Tyler’s father blames the tour guides for his son’s death. … Bold Earth group team leaders in conjunction with the Pack and Paddle tour guides, … violation of the State of Hawaii issued permit regulations,” the complaint states.

Farthers seem to be more interested in canoes and administering CP rather than in complaining about school CP.
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HH2012
836
Mar 04, 2013#64
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

“<em>Fathers seem to be more interested in canoes and administering CP rather than in complaining about school CP</em>.” … which may ironically leave you and your search “up the creek without a paddle”
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
3
Mar 20, 2013#65
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

CLICK<a rel=”nofollow”>

Journalists with a fondness for alliteration. N.B. Running start for the paddle.

</a>CLICK
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Mar 20, 2013#66
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

How acutely embarrassing it must have been for the teenage boys to have their mothers photographing their buttocks, showing the photos and making such a fuss.
The incident attracted quite of lot of interest in the news of the time. Most parents supported the principal’s use of the paddle.

The Free Lance-Star – Feb 25, 1959

The Dispatch – Feb 25, 1959

Sunday Independent – Feb 25, 1959
<a href=”http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=m- … 59,3217209″ rel=”nofollow”>
Reading Eagle – Feb 25, 1959</a>
<a href=”http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sr … 47,2638716″ rel=”nofollow”>
Gadsden Times – Feb 24, 1959</a>

The Leader-Post – Feb 27, 1959

The Victoria Advocate – Feb 26, 1959
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Mar 20, 2013#67
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Those opposed to spanking: School paddling is inconsistent with Title IX because it inherently impacts boys and girls unequally. Girls are affected worse, they say.

Title IX is a portion of the USA Education Amendments of 1972.

“No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance.”
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Mar 20, 2013#68
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

The Miami News – Feb 24, 1959

Warsaw Times – Union – Feb 25, 1959

Eugene Register-Guard – Feb 25, 1959

Toledo Blade – Feb 25, 1959

The fifties seemed to have been a time when the paddle was well known and much used but not accepted by all, and some mothers in particular. Paddling or complaints about paddling was considered newsworthy. Was this when mothers were moving out of the home and exerting more influence in the wider world?
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
3
Mar 20, 2013#69
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

CLICK

A good picture of Bartlett High School paddling controversy.

CLICK
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Mar 21, 2013#70
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Paddling in county schools is limited to boys… “All students [refers to both sexes] would love to take over the school…” “Without such punishment pupils [again refers to both sexes] will not have respect for their teachers.”

From that, it can be inferred that girls had no respect for their teachers and the teachers were quite content for them to take over the school.

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KKxyz
3,590
53
Mar 21, 2013#71
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

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Mar 21, 2013#72
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

CLICK

Born. To Princess Marie-José of Piedmont, and Crown Prince Umberto of Italy; their third child, a daughter; in Naples. Name: Maria Gabriella Gennaro Adelaide Adelgonda Giuseppina Felicita Margherita. Weight: 8 Ibs. 10 oz. Her maternal grandmother is Dowager Queen Elisabeth of the Belgians.

CLICK

Happy Birthday 73.

CLICK

Here is an interesting interview of recent vintage.

CLICK

The Shah found another girl. His third wife. Farah Diba. Her life was far from a bed of roses. He youngest son at 44 committed suicide. Here are pictures of a happier time and a somewhat recent interview prior to that tragedy.

CLICK

http://youtu.be/1Kx9bmdFx7I

CLICK

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KK
Apr 05, 2013#74
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cdnc?a … 00327.2.18

SAN FRANCISCO, SUNDAY, MARCH 27. THE BOARD OF EDUCATION AND THE ROBERTSON CASE [Editorial comment]

Early in March [1870], a boy pupil of the Lincoln School, after considerable exasperating contumacious conduct, was soundly whipped across the back with a rattan, by one of the sub-masters, W. A. Robertson. The punishment was lighter than is administered in thousands of instances in the public schools of the United States. And under ordinary circumstances the whole affair would not have attracted attention in the school, the family of the pupil, or in the public press. But an injudicious mother made considerable outcry, having heard a boy’s exaggerated report of the punishment before her son had himself returned from school.

With a maternal anguish, to which much can be excused, she made bitter complaints, which came to the knowledge of the conductors of a city journal, who are ever on the alert for a sensational topic, whether it be a salacious scandal in private life or a whipping in the public school; these persons seize upon the distended story of the boy’s punishment, and, with great ingenuity, tortured therefrom a report of the occurrence, in which it was almost impossible for the actors and witnesses to recognize a shred of the original statement. By the use of inflaming epithets and downright falsifications, the public mind was led astray, so far as it was affected by this one journal, and people were influenced to believe much worse things than had really happened.

Complaint was lodged against Robertson by one of the aforesaid publishers, and he was brought into the Police Court to answer to a grave charge of assault. The sitting magistrate, new to the bench and emulous of immediate local celebrity, espoused the side of the case, which any passionate and superficial man might take, and, after a prejudiced examination of the teacher, sentenced him to six months imprisonment in the county jail. The affair came before the Board of Education, where it legitimately belonged, and a Special Committee, consisting of Directors Reynolds, Mather and Kohler, was appointed to examine into the facts. The report of this Committee, laid before the readers of the Alt a to-day, is temperate, able, judicious and exhaustive, and its conclusions will undoubtedly be concurred in by a great majority of those who have paid any thoughtful attention to the affair.

Except for the unfortunate effect which this whole business is likely to have upon the public schools, it may well be ridiculed as “a tempest in a teapot.” The Committee’s report justly begins with the remark that as to what was the teacher’s right and duty under the circumstances detailed, hardly rises to the dignity of a question. If the simple check of corporal punishment is to be removed from the scheme of government for schools for boys, the whole system may as well be abandoned at once to anarchy and insubordination. It is shown in the report of the Committee that law, precedent, and the opinions of the best authorities in educational matters, are all on the side of the theory of reasonable bodily punishment in the public schools.

That the punishment of the Goldsmith boy was not unreasonable nor excessive, is conclusively shown. Indeed, to say that blows with a light rattan across the clothed back of a stout boy of fourteen years of age could be excessive, is to utter an absurdity. Looking over the case with coolness and impartiality, it is difficult to see how the teacher could have done anything better than punish the boy as he did ; and when one comes to peruse the array of Judicial opinion which is embodied in the report of the Committee, it is impossible to come to any other conclusion than theirs, in which they justify Mr. Robertson and sustain him in his course

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cdnc?a … 700327.2.5

The Lincoln School Case DISORGANIZATION OF THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS.
SPECIAL MEETING OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION. Following a court case involving a mother complaining about the caning of her son, the Board confirms the right of teachers to use CP in San Francisco schools.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
3
Apr 24, 2013#75
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

CLICK

Abbey E Turner was a calendar girl teacher of the month of February 2013.

CLICK

Here she is a few years before as the coach on bottom left in happier times.

CLICK

An ignominious fall from grace.

CLICK

Public school upper left hand columnTunica County MS map priorly posted.

CLICK

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Chirob
1,045
Apr 24, 2013#76
Hello AW; Thanks for the info on this story.

Is there more info somewhere? One of the comments below the article in your first link mentions pictures of the bruises showing red marks and more bruising than was briefly shown in the video report.

According to the info in your last link scp decreased dramatically in the latest year reported. Which is surprising considering it’s geographic location. A. It’s in Mississippi. B. It’s just south of Memphis,TN which is notorious for scp abuse at a charter/magnet school.

The entire state of MS has a history of abusive scp.
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Apr 25, 2013#77
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

A better course of action would have been for Casey’s mom to have shown scant sympathy and to have expressed concern about the attitude or behaviour that got him into trouble. If she were concerned about the apparent severity, a private discussion with the school would in all likelihood have sufficed.
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Apr 25, 2013#78
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

That might have been worth a try but I wouldn’t hold out much hope of a satisfactory resolution – she’d have a better chance of winning the lottery. Schools are very well practised at fobbing parents (especially mothers) off and attempting to deny them their legal rights. Parents have little choice but to resort to the courts or the media if they want to be heard.

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Chirob
1,045
Apr 25, 2013#79
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If you want anything more than lip service from an abusive school you have to go public. That is the only thing they fear. Especially a private school. Business will suffer.
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Apr 25, 2013#80
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

It is important not to start discussions with an attack on the other party. If you see issues as black and white, with you in the right, you will put the other party on the defensive making it difficult to progress. You must be willing to listen to the other party. Things may not be quite as you believe.

Parents and schools need to work together if children are to prosper. Teachers have a hard job and need the support of parents.
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batfinch1
127
Apr 25, 2013#81
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

So why not follow this procedure?
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Apr 25, 2013#82
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I agree, that’s why I said it might be worth a try, but teachers are not always reasonable people. It’s possible that most grievances are resolved by simple discussion, we don’t hear about those, we only hear about those cases that have gone public. In most of those, the complainant has tried your approach and just been fobbed off so is left with no option but to escalate the matter.

Teachers need to listen to parents’ genuine concerns and, where a complaint is against an individual teacher, the person receiving it needs to investigate thoroughly and impartially.
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Apr 25, 2013#83
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>In this day and age surely schools have a properly set out Complaints procedure (I know UK schools do). With an appeal procedure in built.

So why not follow this procedure?</div>
Parents might not know about it.

When my children were at school, I wasn’t made aware of any complaints procedure. I had occasion to raise a few minor matters with the school but, had they not been resolved, the only avenues I was aware of were the courts or the newspapers.

How does the complaints procedure work anyway? Are complaints and appeals heard and investigated by impartial third parties? If a parent has cause for complaint but is just fobbed off, what is she (or he) to do?

It’s all very well having a “complaints procedure” but it needs to work and be seen to work.

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Guest
Apr 25, 2013#84
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Most US schools do have a complaints procedure, unfortunately it is neither independent , transparent , or in most cases held in public.Often it is a subcommittee of the ISD or School board, chaired by the Superintendent, sitting in camera . Some allow legal representation , but the rules of evidence do NOT apply.There is not necessarily the opportunity for cross examination of witnesses.

My old school(UK) today has a complaints procedure and a hearing panel plus an appeal panel, but personally I would have absolutely no trust in them . Because it is in the private sector its board of governors ( completely unelected, completely unrepresentative), set the panels and the agendas There are no independent members.

By all means try and have a constructive dialogue with the Principal/Head, but in the US cases, one of the problems is that the Principal and those who were responsible for the paddling normally will refuse to speak and refer matters to the Superintendent , who frankly hasn’t a clue as he/she wasn’t there.From the school’s point of view if its a (US) public school , the less said the less opportunity for outsiders to accuse it of committing acts not covered by the shield laws. In the private sector however , the threat of publicity can have an immediate and deleterious effect on recruitment.
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Apr 25, 2013#85
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Going to school, or to anywhere, to complain is likely to provoke a defensive response if done aggressively. Going to school to discuss a child’s troublesome behaviour is another matter. Raising and educating children needs to be a collaborative process not a war. Parents and schools need to work together. Formal complaints should be a last resort not the opening gambit.

Let us suppose that the paddling was undeserved or too severe. How best to salvage the situation and minimize the damage? Revenge is unlikely to be useful. Nor is “winning”, if it involves the other party “loosing”. Sacking and jailing all those who make a mistake is scarcely practical. Few would escape. There are always a range of constructive options if there is good will.
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Chirob
1,045
Apr 25, 2013#86
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

So in KK’s world these victims have to go through life without any justice simply because they were not in a position to defend themselves. I guess we can all be thankful KK is not a judge or politician or victims would have no recourse at all.
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KKxyz
3,590
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Apr 26, 2013#87
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I believed you first described your time at a US military school here (posted 14 October 14, 2003). Are there any subsequent updates or elaborations?

I accept that you were harshly treated and were damaged by the experience. I do not condone what happened to you.

You have misunderstood or misconstrued my position. I have not suggested nor do I believe that criminal acts should be excused.

An educational psychologist who was employed by the local education board was of the opinion that in all cases of “problem children” that were referred to him there was nothing wrong with the child but a problem with the parenting. A very small number of bad parents, and their children, caused a greatly disparate amount of trouble in schools. Teachers need support and encouragement if they are to do better.
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JennyBr
1,776
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Apr 26, 2013#88
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

What’s wrong with his mother’s attitude? She raised a complaint of excessive punishment which the sheriff’s office is investigating. If Casey did show disrespect for his teachers (and it’s by no means certain he did), it’s far more likely to be a reflection of the school’s attitude to its students and their parents.

The point you overlook is that good will has to be on both sides. Parents cannot work with schools if schools refuse to work with parents and address parents’ complaints.

I have first hand experience (here) of the attitude of some teachers. That Headmaster was attempting to deny us a legal right, saying that it wasn’t possible. Strange, then, that the impossible became possible when my husband mentioned the precise Act and section that gave us that right.

Now, suppose my husband and I had been unaware of the law. Our daughter would have been unlawfully forced to attend religious assembly and RE. Obviously complaining to the school would have been fruitless, the decision to deny us our right had already been made. So, what could we have done? One possibility would be to take legal advice and, once we had been informed of our rights in law, seek injunctive relief, damages and costs. If we were uncertain as to our rights, a cheaper option would have been to go to the newspapers.

Bearing in mind the Headmaster intended to act unlawfully, what would you advise a parent in that situation do?

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KKxyz
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May 04, 2013#89
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Efficiency is also favoured by having a fixed syllabus. This allows the same textbooks to be used in all schools, and teachers and pupils to move from school to school without major disruption. Employers can easily judge who might be suitable to employ. High schools and universities can judge who might be suitable to undertake further education.

Efficiency requires large classes and conformity.

It is a common experience of teachers that a small number of disruptive or non-conforming pupils greatly increases their workload. Such pupils divert their attention from the well behaved. In many cases, the troublesome have inept parents who have not socialized their children and who fail to nurture them, or who undermine and criticize the school, and much else besides. Such parents generally know their rights but are unaware or uncaring about their duties and obligations. They do not care if they disadvantage others. They are selfish and self centred.

Competent, well-meaning, non-conformist parents are also major problem if the send their children to a mainstream school and demand special conditions or treatment. Such parents do not seem to care if they disadvantage others. Such parents can properly try to convince the majority changes are needed, or they can make their own private arrangements for the education of their children. They should not undermine individual teachers who are obliged to follow the rules. Concerns about the competency of individual teachers should be discussed privately with the principal.

Repeated attacks on the teaching profession is driving away good teachers.
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JennyBr
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May 04, 2013#90
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

(my emphasis.)
That might be true in class but not always so in the school as a whole, as the article Doctor Dominum linked to evidences.

What you call non-conforming pupils are often those who are victimised by teachers failing to conform with the law.

We need to, otherwise we’ll be denied them, as the Headmaster of my daughter’s primary school attempted to do.

That’s true of many schools – “My Castle; My Rules”.

The problem is, too many teachers need reminding that they’re required to follow the rules (the law).

That’s fair enough and I’m sure most such concerns are. The complaints that make the headlines, so that we get to hear about them, are those that go well beyond simple concerns about a teacher’s competence. Most relate to unlawful and even illegal actions by teachers or schools as a whole. In some cases the school is just being unreasonable and refuses to budge or even discuss the matter with parents. In such cases, parents either have to give in to the school’s bullying or escalate the matter by going to the newspapers.

Good teachers are welcomed. It the unreasonable ones and the abusers who come in for criticism.
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hcsj44
1,211
May 04, 2013#91
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I suspect the same is true of your company. It is a sometimes inconvenient fact of life that we sometimes have to be prepared to accommodate the wishes of others, even when we think they are wrong.

The sooner young people are taught not to be selfish, the better our society will function. Most of our current ills are down to the selfishness of others; be it rogue bankers, lustful celebrities or arrogant leaders.

Perhaps you have inadvertently taught your daughter that she can have whatever she wants in life by exploiting a weakness in others, just as you did with the hapless school head?
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Guest
May 04, 2013#92
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I understand and indeed agree with your concerns about selfishness and ‘me first’ attitudes today.

However in Jenny’s situation with the school head, the head was acting unlawfully, indeed illegally. Whereas it is essential in many cases to negotiate around issues what require ‘give and take’ if life is to continue agreeably to all parties , surely you have to draw a clear line in the sand when it comes to statute law ?

Otherwise what value the sacrifices of campaigners for freedom under that law from Tom Paine onwards?

If a head ignores one statutory responsibility or obligation , he might forget another ..and another….if one goes unchallenged , so may his next action ….and the one after that A small step away from the rule of law and democracy and toward towards anarchy or dictatorship ? Just like the undisciplined classroom
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KKxyz
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May 04, 2013#93
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Schools are not responsible for today’s social and economic mess. It is unreasonable to expect them to undo or counter the damage done by parents and the wider world. Schools may be part of the solution, if there is one.

School teachers are human. They have to deal with their own issues as well as other people’s difficult children. Of course, they should follow the letter and spirit of the law but it is unreasonable to expect them to cope with what is being demanded of them, without error and without support from parents and the wider community.

There is a tendency these days to demand perfection from those who provide us with goods and services while at the same time demanding understanding of our own weakness and failings. The two demands are not compatible. Goods and services are supplied by people whose weaknesses and failings must be accommodated.

If you skid off the road while driving, whose fault is it?
(1) The authorities for inadequate design, maintenance, signposting of the road.
(2) The vehicle inspection authorities for not detecting your worn tyres.
(3) The weather office for not warning you of adverse driving conditions.
(4) The sun for being low in the sky and making it hard to see.
(5) Dr Dominum.
(6) The place of entertainment or business you are driving to for closing too early thus forcing you to drive fast.
(7) Bad luck.
(8) Those who don’t like caning girls.
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hcsj44
1,211
May 04, 2013#94
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

There are some issues where I believe invoking “the law” is going too far. In terms of criminal law, there must be clear lines, but how many have been unreasonably rescued by “Mr Loophole”?

Setting that aside, the case here was not one of criminal law. I respect the position of Jenny and her husband on their beliefs, but I suspect they approached the school in a manner more intent on victory than compromise.

The point I am making is that there are occasions when each of us has to be prepared to see the other person’s view. If all children learnt that, I suggest there would be fewer conflicts filling our daily news bulletins.
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Another_Lurker
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May 04, 2013#95
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

With reference to your motoring question, over 50 years of driving experience has convinced me that the vast majority of road accidents involving motor vehicles are the responsibility of a single critical component, the nut holding the steering wheel.</div>
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Guest
May 04, 2013#96
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

As to whose fault is it ,whatever it may be…. well indubitably, Doctor Dominum who else???………except maybe …. well, if it’s definitely not him, how about Another Lurker ??
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Another_Lurker
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May 04, 2013#97
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If you have IE10 and the spell checker/auto-correction facility interbreeds with your HP text prediction facility to produce a monstrous offspring that causes everything you type to come out black on black. you know where not to look for assistance! </div>
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Guest
May 05, 2013#98
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Hi Another Lurker,

Would I ever be seen dead using IE anything ? Now a bug from the newest Firefox nightly build ,maybe !!!! And now we’d better not get accused of hijacking the thread !
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JennyBr
1,776
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May 05, 2013#99
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

True, on both counts.

I do make rules but not just because I can. I only make rules that, in the first instance, I consider necessary, reasonable and, above all lawful. If anyone thinks I’ve got it wrong, they can tell me and I’ll listen. It’s happened a few times and, in most cases, I have made adjustments.

I certainly wouldn’t treat our customers with the complete lack of respect some schools treat theirs.

Your second point applies to schools too. It might have been inconvenient for the school but the Headmaster had to be prepared to obey the law. As teachers were often fond of saying, “you can’t choose which rules you want to obey.”

I don’t believe so. She’s never shown that attitude in her life. It’s more likely we (inadvertently) taught her the opposite. Remember, the Headmaster presumed we didn’t know the law so it was he who was trying to exploit a weakness (our ignorance) in us, not vice versa.

In your reply to Prof N you said –

What choice did we have, other than to give in to his unlawful demands?

I’ve stated the situation as precisely as I remember it. “Intent on victory” is a very strong phrase to describe our approach. When you go to the shop to buy a loaf of bread, do you do so “intent on victory”? I’m fairly sure most people in that situation intend to succeed in their quest.

As I said when I first related the incident, we put it as a request, not even a demand. It was only after the Headmaster lied to us by saying (paraphrased) “we always try to comply with parents’ requests but I’m afraid it’s impossible to exclude your daughter from RE and assembly”, that my husband made explicit reference to the law. I say the Headmaster lied because, by attempt to deny us a legal right, he clearly wasn’t “trying to comply with parents’ requests”, quite the opposite in fact. Also, he said it was impossible. That was clearly untrue because it was possible.

That’s a fair enough point but it applies to both sides. There has to be give and take. If one always gives, the other always takes.

That Headmaster had got off on the wrong foot so he wasn’t likely to get much co-operation in the future. If he had simply recognized our rights in the first place (as subsequent Heads. did), perhaps saying something like “Well, you have that right but it’s going to be a little difficult for us”, we would have worked with him to find some compromise.

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May 05, 2013#100
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

You’re entitled to your opinion but I doubt any of my children’s former teachers would agree with you.

The only one I had any serious issue with was the Headmaster I’ve recently mentioned. Even then we only escalated the matter as far as was necessary.

I can only think of a couple of other, very minor, matters. One was a disagreement with a “Design & Technology” (I think that’s what it was called) teacher, who clearly wasn’t an engineer or physicist, over calculating the value of a current limiting resistor in an LED circuit. It was at a parents’ evening when she was trying to explain to us what the children were making. She didn’t know, or simply forgot, that different colour LEDs have different forward voltage drops. (Or she might have just being trying to keep it simple for “thick” parents. )

Other than that, I got on very well with them.

I’ve only criticized schools that I think are acting unreasonably or unlawfully and I always emphasized that it only applies to some schools or teachers. I don’t believe I’ve criticized my own school, other than an occasional comment that, with hindsight, perhaps my HM or a teacher could have handled something better than they did.

If you look hard enough, you’ll find some of my posts where I’ve agreed with certain actions taken by Mrs Beale-Buss and even (sit down before you continue) Doctor Dominum.

Some schools do have a difficult task but, in my opinion, they bring a lot of the problems on themselves. Consider the incident involving Prof N, Mojo, and her HM – here.
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KKxyz
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May 10, 2013#101
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Thanks for your explanation. I have removed your name from my list of suspected parents from hell and returned it to my list of the stroppy parents.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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May 26, 2013#102
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

CLICK

The mother supports the principal and believes her daughter was not spanked.

CLICK

Latest is that the incident was blown out of proportion. Sounds more like it.

CLICK

Dr McCaskill prior to his “retirement”.

CLICK

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Justin
Jun 05, 2013#103
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

You say above:

Presumably you refer to this contribution?

You go on to say:

<div style=”padding-left:40px;padding-right:40px;font-style:italic;”>Surely the 15 – 17 year old guys had the option of:
1. Walking out of school
2. Declining to submit and being prepared to resist if necessary!</div>
Well now, the young gentlemen concerned may look fairly hard, and certainly they could have done (1) and possibly even (2).

But perhaps they were mindful of the effect such behaviour might have had on their future educational prospects, and hence their chance of earning a good living. American wasn’t, and indeed isn’t, a welfare state like the UK. It was and is pretty much work or starve. And if your education was so curtailed that you couldn’t get a well paying job you might still starve!

Or perhaps they were mindful of encountering the fate which befell these young ladies some 50+ years later and being hauled off to jail for truancy (option 1 on your list) or even assault (option 2). Not only was and is is America not a welfare State, but they didn’t and don’t pussy-foot about when it comes to locking people up if the opportunity presents itself!</div>
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Justin
Jun 06, 2013#105
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If you sit a moment and reflect quietly on the issue you will realise that whether or nor the boys had reached school leaving age is immaterial to the matter on hand. The boys quite clearly wished to remain at school, probably for the lifetime economic comfort reasons I highlighted, otherwise, if indeed they had passed the statutory school leaving age, they would presumably have departed then. Your suggestion #1, and part of your suggestion #2 thus fall. In any event assault is still assault, and subject to criminal sanctions, even if the instigator of said assault need not legally be on the premises where the assault took place. The rest of your suggestion #2 falls flat on its face.

Seriously, I think that you will find very few cases where the subject of CP refused it or assaulted the person administering it, especially as far back as 1959. The world just didn’t work like that here in the UK in those days. I know, I was there. If those boys were indeed 17 then that makes me the same age as them. I doubt very strongly if things were generally any different in the US at that time, especially in Tennessee, which is not a State exactly famed for embracing ‘modern’ ideas of progress and the ‘rights’ of youth!</div>
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Justin
Jun 06, 2013#107
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I am not quite persuaded that resisting punishment would constitute ‘assault’. Whilst I know where you are coming from re -the late 1950s, the fact remains that the mothers involved showed a willingness to challenge authority. This was probably quite rare at the time , and I would expect the boys to have been influenced by it in terms of how they subsequently reacted.
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JennyBr
1,776
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Jun 06, 2013#108
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

It’s very easy for us, as adults in the 21st century, to ask why those boys didn’t just walk out but you need to put yourself in the position of a teenager in 1959. As Another_Lurker says, it just wasn’t done.

When I was 17, in VIth form, I wasn’t subject to CP but, if I had been, I would have seen it as preferable to the alternatives – especially suspension or expulsion. Just walking out wasn’t an option. I could have done so but at what cost? I could easily have ended up like some girls I knew who attended other schools where they were exempt from all punishments and, de facto, permitted to do as they pleased. Interestingly, despite apparently having a very easy time, they all left school at the earliest opportunity – with no qualifications to speak of.

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Justin
Jun 06, 2013#109
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I don’t think that much divides us here – particularly regarding attitudes to authority back in 1959. However, when you say ‘it just wasn’t done’ for boys to respond by walking out of school when faced with threat of punishment, I would suggest that many 15 year olds – certainly 17 year olds – had already left school in those days. Therefore, it was surely ‘an option’. Moreover, I would add that parents seeking to challenge the headteacher’s authority in this way was not ‘the done thing’ in 1959 – yet those mothers did it! Another option, I imagine, would have been walking out of school and then finding another one – I find it unlikely that pupils were restricted to a single school in the area.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jun 07, 2013#110
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Thank you for your support on the question of resisting or absenting oneself from school corporal punishment. Please forgive me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall that on the occasion of your final school caning for smoking, as a ‘third time’ offender you were made to wait until last for your six of the best. You thus had to wait and watch while other girls and boys were caned before being dealt with yourself, an ordeal in itself. You could presumably have walked out of the Headmistress’s study and gone home. You could have vigorously protested that you weren’t going to be caned. You could have physically resisted when it came to your turn to be caned. But you didn’t do any of those things.

Similarly in my own much less severe school CP ‘formative experience’ as a little lad, when I was waiting in the queue I could have run out of the classroom, and fled home. The school gate was very close. When I got to the front of the queue, instead of meekly taking up my position and allowing myself to be held immobile, I could have kicked the teacher in the shins to express my juvenile displeasure at being put through the ordeal and again run home. But I didn’t do any of those things.

Though our respective ages and situations were very different, we agree on why we accepted the punishments. That was how it was. You just did. And as you got older considerations like continued education and attainment of qualifications entered the equation as well.

Now Justin, who seems to have something of a axe to grind on this issue, doesn’t seem to accept any of this. In particular he doesn’t accept it in respect of the boys in 1959 Tennessee, where in fact I’m pretty sure very similar considerations would apply. But Justin says that if the boys weren’t going to resist punishment by themselves then their Mother’s influence should have caused them to do so. Hmm, let’s see what he has to say!

Hi Justin,

You seem to have a very strong feeling that either pupils should have resisted school corporal punishment, or if they didn’t they should have taken legal action against whoever applied it to them asap. Posts in this thread, this thread, this thread, and this thread seem to attest to the strength of your convictions and your, to put it bluntly, detestation of the use of corporal punishment and belief that it should have been resisted if necessary physically, and certainly by legal action.

And yet you don’t record having been subjected to school corporal punishment yourself. Your only basis for all this hatred and long distilled animosity seems to be a conversation you overheard age 8 or 9 in 1962 between your Mother and a neighbour concerning a caning administered by the Headmaster of the Grammar School you later attended. You do name the school and the Headmaster, but as it was so long ago there seems little point in my repeating that information. You also say that the Headmaster was a distant relative and that you bear him no personal ill-will because your relationship with him while at the school was good.

And now you are extending your theories about the vengeance that pupils should have wreaked on those using CP to another country and a time even before that 1962 incident, well outside your own experience. Hmm, I hope that it brings you some satisfaction!</div>
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Justin
Jun 07, 2013#111
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Frankly, I feel you are making far too much of my entirely reasonable comments in relation to an incident in the USA back in 1959, and am bemused that you have felt the need to consult my comments on earlier threads which have no direct relevance to this at all!

In respect of the 1959 affair, I have made no reference to ‘vengeance’ at all.’Refusing to submit’ or ‘resisting punishment’ do not, I submit, fall under that heading. I have broadly agreed that attitudes to authority in 1959 were very different to those of today, but have also noted that – rather atypically for the period – the mothers involved had challenged authority – and done so in a very formal way. It simply did occur to me that such parental attitudes might well have stiffened the resolve of at least some of those boys not to accept punishment – and having done so to have also considered available alternatives!
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jun 08, 2013#112
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

On reflection that portion of my June 7 2013, 4:15 AM post above addressed to you was uncalled for and to an extent distorted what you had said on the subject at issue. I hope that you will please accept my apologies for this.

I guess that we do spend quite a lot of time here arguing about and analysing past instances of school corporal punishment, and I should not have been surprised that you should wish to do so in respect of the 1959 incident. Unfortunately we shall probably never know whether, emboldened by their Mothers, the boys might have subsequently resisted paddling. The media is very fickle. School CP tends to be a one day wonder and is then quickly dropped in favour of another story.</div>
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Jun 08, 2013#113
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Many teenage boys seem to need tests of courage as part of growing up. I have watched boys jump from a warning sign on a high bridge into a deep pool. Once one had done it the other had to do it too. Ditto, with riding difficult mountain bike trails. Challenges of this type only satisfy if there are real consequences for failure. Canings were far safer than drowning, or multiple broken bones.

A most notable event when I was in school was the caning of the head prefect for some undisclosed offence. The boy would have been 17 or even 18 years old, captain of the First Fifteen. We can be sure he was caned hard – a true six of the best. It must have been highly embarrassing – sixth and upper sixth canings were rare but certainly not unknown – but very much better than the alternative.

It is now commonly assumed that the caned received no benefit from their ordeal. This was often not the case. When caning was an acceptable practice it enabled a boy to assuage rightful anger, wipe the slate clean, and begin again. Making mistakes and testing limits is part of growing up. The consequences of youthful mistakes should, if possible, not be allowed to blight the rest of life.

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Guest
Jun 08, 2013#114
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In American schools paddling has played an identical role , and you can find autobiographies where the subject describes even provoking a paddling just to demonstrate his passage to greater respect. Indeed American and British teachers will openly confirm that process in the high School years.

Offhand , I cant think in my day of even one prefect in the school who had NEVER been caned. Of course it may only of happened once. This had the really strange effect of meaning that because policy was to avoid caning the brightest, often they didn’t get a look in at the leadership stakes. The same was true in some US schools , particularly when paddling was designated to coaches.Then most footballers etc, found themselves paddles at some stage, and equally elevated in the school hierarchy. Wimps and nerds never did get their day.

However, on Justin’s point , in the 70’s the rise of student militancy, combined with the modernizing influence of more ‘adult’ treatment of students in thee’new’ sixth form colleges , ensured the death throws of sixth form caning . I suspect by say 1980 it would be very rare. I know of one case mid 70’s where a boy did refuse, and the school tried, and failed to restrain him , ending up with one master getting a bloody nose. The boy left and the head was fired. ( sorry retired).That was the demise of the old school ‘thrashers in our area. As for the boy, he went to the local local sixth form college- they didn’t worry o about these circumstances. There was no police action .

CP was a reflection of the demands of society , and then paddling helped to determine those who succeeded in the eyes of that society. The best way on my school to get a prefectship was to play in the first XV rugby or First XI cricket ( preferably both) and to have a reputation as a bit of a Flashman. When I made prefect, there wasn’t one single other whom had any real empathy with my take on life, or had even been part of my friendship group. A very lonely promotion. Something similar with the american legend of the school quarterback.

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JennyBr
1,776
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Jun 10, 2013#115
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I could have done any of those things but, if I had, it would have lowered me in the eyes of my peers. I think I’ve suggested that before as a possible reason we were punished together when we misbehaved together. Another factor, which I believe is significant, is that I had a lot of respect for my HM because she always treated us fairly. If I had not had that respect for her, my actions would very likely have been different, as I indicated in this post.

In that case, we were discussing a hypothetical sexist school that treated students unfairly, although such schools did exist. In such a school, I couldn’t have had any respect for the staff in general: although I might have had for a few individuals. Also, it’s likely that my behaviour would have rapidly deteriorated so, by the time anyone decided to take action, it would probably have been too late. I would have already been used to doing as I pleased and telling teachers to [go away].

Obviously I can’t know for certain how I would have reacted to such an environment, I basing this on what other women I know personally, who attended such schools, have told me about how they behaved.

I tend to agree. Certainly when we were very young, we just accepted our punishments. As we got older, other considerations came into play but one you haven’t mentioned is “fairness”. In sexist schools, girls were often held back so continued education and qualifications weren’t significant factors – for many girls they weren’t going to happen in any case. The only relevant factor then was respect, which was likely to be absent if they were treated unfairly.

In the case of those boys in Tennessee, continuing their education and gaining qualifications were likely to be highly relevant factors. In 1959, I don’t think their mothers would have had much influence on their attitude to being punished in school.

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Jun 10, 2013#116
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Girls need to face those challenges too if we are to achieve sex equality. That is quite possibly one of the reasons some schools protected girls from the consequences of their actions. As neilfrommanc point out (here) – “[differential treatment] …flags very clearly that boys and girls, and hence men and women, can be treated differently purely on gender, so the engineering college can later find reasons for rejecting Jenny just as the nursing college will reject Neil.”

It definitely benefited me, not being caned per se but by being treated equally. I gave an example of this here. The fact that I had been treated equally and had faced the same challenges as boys enabled that man to see me as an equal. That’s the clearest example I have but not the only one. In some cases, it was that fact that I had faced up to and overcome challenges in the past that gave me the ability to overcome a challenge in the present.

Girls need the opportunities to test limits, face the consequences of their mistakes, wipe the slate clean and start again. As you say, it’s all part of growing up and a youthful mistake should not be allowed to blight the rest of a girl’s life.

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KKxyz
3,590
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Jun 11, 2013#117
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

The school was in a fever of excitement and curiosity. At dinner-time nothing else was talked of by the lower boys, but the upper forms kept a dignified silence.

Two o’clock came. The names of all the school were called over, and amid perfect silence the master of the week left the hall. Then Somers stood up in the daïs and said –

“Is Harpour here? – the rest please to keep their places.”

“Im here – what do you want of me?” said Harpour sulkily, as he stood up in his place.

“First of all, I want to tell you before the whole school that you have been behaving in the most shamefully cruel and blackguard way, and in a way that has produced disastrous consequences to one of the little fellows. A big fellow like you ought to be thoroughly ashamed of such conduct. If you were capable of a blush you ought to blush for it. It is our duty as monitors, and my duty as Head of the school, to punish you for this conduct, as Dr Lane has left it in our hands; and I am going to cane you for it. Stand out.”

“I won’t. Ill see you damned first.”

A sensation ran through the school at this open defiance; but Somers, quite unmoved, repeated –

“I take no notice of your words further than to tell you that if you swear again you will have an additional punishment; but once again I tell you to stand out.”

Harpour quailed a little at his firm tone, and at the total absence of all support from his followers; but he again flatly refused to stand out.

“Very well,” said Somers; “you have already defied the authority of one monitor, and that is an aggravation of your original offence. I should have been glad to have avoided a scene, but if your common sense doesn’t make you bear the punishment coolly, you shall bear it by force. Will you stand out? – no? – then you shall be made. Fetch him here, some one,” he said, turning to the sixth-form.

The second monitor, Danvers, quietly seized Harpours right arm, and Macon, one of the biggest fellows in the fifth-form, of his own accord got up and seized the other, Harpour’s heart sank at this, for Danvers and the other were with him in the cricket eleven, and he was not as strong as either of them singly.

“Now mark,” said Somers; “caned you shall be, to redeem the character of the school; but unless you take it without being made to take it, your name shall also be immediately struck off the school list, and you shall leave Saint Winifred’s this evening. You’ll be no great loss, I take it. So much I may tell you as a proof that the Headmaster has left us to vindicate the name of Saint Winifred’s.”

Seeing that resistance was useless, Harpour accordingly stood out in the centre of the room, but not until he had cast an inquiring look among those who embraced his side; and these, who, as we have seen, were tolerably numerous, all looked at Kenrick that he might give some hint as to what they should do. Thus appealed to, Kenrick rose and said –

“I protest against this caning.”

“You!” said Somers, turning contemptuously in that direction; “who are you?”

The general titter which these words caused made Kenrick furious, and he cried out angrily –

“It is against the opinion of the majority of the school.”

“We shall see,” said Somers, with stinging sang froid; “meanwhile, you may sit down, and let the majority of the school speak for themselves, otherwise you may be requested to occupy a still more prominent position. I shall have something to say to you presently.”

“Let’s rescue him,” said Kenrick, springing forward, and several fellows stirred in answer to the appeal; but Macon, seizing hold of Tracy with one arm, and Mackworth with the other, thrust them both down on the floor, and Danvers, catching hold of Kenrick, swung him over the form, and pinned him there. The general laugh with which this proceeding was received showed that only a small handful of the school were really opposed to the monitors, and that most boys thoroughly concurred with them, and held them to be in the right. So Macon quietly boxed Jones’s ears, since Jones was making a noise, and then told him and the others that they might return to their places.

Crimsoned all over with shame and anger, Kenrick sat down, and Somers proceeded to administer to Harpour a most severe caning. That worthy quite meant to stretch to the utmost his powers of endurance, and made several scornful remarks after each of the first blows. But Somers had no intention to let him off too easily; each sneer was followed by a harder cut, and the remarks were very soon followed by a silent but significant wince. It was not until a writhe had been succeeded by a sob, and a sob by a howl, that Somers said to him –

“Now you may go.”

And Harpour did go to his seat, in an agony of mingled pain and shame. He had boasted repeatedly that he would never take a thrashing from anyone; but he had taken it, and succumbed to it, and that too in the presence of the whole school. He was tremendously ashamed; he never forgot the scene, and determined never to lose an opportunity of revenging it.

[. . .]

Excerpt from: Chapter 27, The Monitors, ST. WINIFRED’S or THE WORLD OF SCHOOL

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/24329

By F. W. FARRAR (1831 1903, cleric, schoolteacher and author.)

The story covers the intimate details of a life in a boys’ boarding school in late Victorian England. Farrar, having himself attended such a school (King William’s College on the Isle of Man), then later been an assistant master at another, Harrow School, then Head Master of Marlborough College, was well placed to write about such a school.

Much of the routine management of the school was in the hands of 16 monitors (or prefects), senior boys with Somers as head boy.

Harpour was one of those fellows who are to be found in every school, and who are always dangerous characters: a huge boy, very low down in the forms, very strong, very stupid in work, rather good-looking, generally cut by the better sort, unredeemed by any natural taste or accomplishment, wholly without influence except among little boys (whom he alternately bullied and spoilt), and only kept at school by his friends, because they were rather afraid of him, and did not quite know what to do with him.
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Jun 28, 2013#118
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

The first interviewed, a woman, reported how terrible everything was. The came the man. He was very excited and greatly impressed by the waves sweeping ashore, emphasising their beauty and power. He made light of the damage, all repairable. The reporter was nonplussed.

This is not the first time I have observed a gender difference in the attitudes to the forces of nature. Men and boys generally seem to cope better.
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Justin
Jul 26, 2013#119
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

In my opinion, no parent should ever make their specific SCP concerns and most especially their child’s bruised posterior public except in the most exceptional cases. To do otherwise will compound the harm done to the child. Disputes and concerns about a school’s CP policy or practices are best discussed privately. Parents and schools need to be allies not enemies. Children should never be used as pawns.
A number of people have suggested that submitting to a caning was a means of gaining respect from a boy’s peer group and being viewed more widely as ‘leadership material’. I would respectfully suggest ,however, that ‘leadership’ can manifest itself in many different ways which are not limited to simply conforming to the assumed ‘norms’ of a particular group. Indeed a refusal to bow to authority could be seen as ‘leadership’ – as could a decision to physically resist or retaliate against a master seeking to punish a boy. A pupil who decided to get up and give Mr X a jolly good hiding in front of the class would surely have demonstrated both courage and leadership – albeit not of the kind approved of my established authority. Such an act ,I am sure, would have impressed more than a few of his peers.
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Guest
Jul 26, 2013#121
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

You don’t want officers who actually can see the futility and can work out the odds. Flashman, with all his idiocy is much better suited to the role- and he won’t bridle when told to shoot some of his men for cowardice!
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Justin
Jul 26, 2013#122
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I find your above post very worrying indeed! You said:

How the heck is that ‘healthier’? In the resulting war several hundred brave men and women on both sides died fighting, thousands of civilians caught up in the conflict were killed, there was vast destruction of property and infrastructure in the war zone and ultimately the victors imposed their version of justice on the vanquished. Exactly as in every war that went before and every war that will follow after for whatever the span of human life on this planet may be.

War is an essential part of human interaction, the continuation of diplomacy by other means. What it is is nasty, brutish and horrible. What it certainly isn’t is ‘wrong’ because the conflicting populations are compliant with it, and ‘healthier’ because they aren’t!</div>
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Justin
Jul 27, 2013#124
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I totally agree with you comments regarding WW1. The masses were certainly brainwashed, especially with one poet used by the Government, for propaganda purposes. Jessie Pope wrote the poem “Who’s for The Game” attempting to belittle anyone not wanting to join the conflict.

Wilfred Owen wrote the poem “Dulce et Decorum Est” as a true reflection of what life in the trenches was actually like, taking a swipe at Pope for misleading poorly educated men and women.

The leadership of these brave soldiers’ in many cases was less than poor, where many perished needlessly. I cannot begin to imagine what the conditions were like, although Owen has given us a very in depth insight.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jul 27, 2013#126
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

What a remarkable coincidence of views! Speaking with one voice is an understatement where you two are concerned!

For the record I had an uncle who joined up as a volunteer at the start of WW1 and later served in The Machine Gun Corps from its foundation in October 1915 to the end of the war. He survived, but he picked up assorted bits of shrapnel along the way which troubled him in later life. Despite that he ran a local shop and a small market garden and was a great character to visit, especially if you caught him in bee-keeping mode!

He wouldn’t talk much about the trenches. I partly take my definition of war as nasty, brutish and horrible from what little he did say. But I’d have liked to see either of you tell him that he was brainwashed. I doubt you’d have enjoyed the encounter!</div>
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de Wolf
Jul 27, 2013#127
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Just for the record I had two great uncle’s who also fought in WW1. One was killed in action, the other received a commendation for work behind the enemy lines.

Irrespective of what you say education pre WW1 was very basic, and some could hardly read or write. Those are facts, if you care to research them. I certainly would never have insulted your uncle, he and his like have my greatest respect. I have also heard the soldiers’ who survived WW1 were very reluctant to speak of their war time experiences. This also applies to the prisoners’ of war taken by the Japanese in WW2.
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Justin
Jul 27, 2013#128
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

The first world war boys it came and it went
The reason for fighting I never did get
But I learned to accept it , accept it with pride,
For you don’t count your dead when there ‘s God on your side.

How many of the ‘Tommies’ in the mud could tell you WHY we were fighting Germany? Most would never have heard of the battle for hegemony of finance capital , Imperialist restrictions on trade, or the Austro Hungarian succession. How many could tell you who Arch Duke Ferdinand was, let alone why his assassination started a world conflagration. . That’s the point ‘my country right or wrong’. Such simple minded rationalisations of war a started to disappear with Indo china , and the realization that many of the sons of those with wealth and influence never got near the front line, in many cases sheltering abroad.

http://bsfctheatrestudies.files.wordpre … ck-181.m4a
http://bsfctheatrestudies.files.wordpre … ck-141.m4a

Richard Attenbourough’s comments on filming the conclusion ( and he’s no commie-liberal) it took us only 10,000 crosses to film it , I ws in tears . ( that’s what about 1 hours casualty rate in all out attack

At least by the 70’s we were less war blind

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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jul 27, 2013#130
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

If you’re going to pretend to be two different people at least do the rest of us the courtesy of making it look convincing and spread your posts out just a teeny little bit!</div>
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Justin
Jul 27, 2013#131
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

I have agreed with Justin on one issue, so I really cannot believe you think we are the same person. I have no idea what Justin’s thoughts are on other issues, but on this one they are very similar. If you persist with this misconstrued line of thought you are going to appear very silly.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Sep 06, 2013#133
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

CLICK

KK. Here is still another angry Mom.

CLICK

Teacher’s Turn To Be Spanked.

CLICK

Dr Penny Elizabeth Boyd. Union University. Doctor of Education (Ed.D.), Educational Leadership and Administration General.

http://www.uu.edu/academics/graduate/edd/

CLICK

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KKxyz
3,590
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Sep 18, 2013#134
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Mother Whips Principal Who Beat Son. 1934 California.

CLICK

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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Sep 05, 2016#136
I’ve often observed that single-parent mothers tend to invest an awful lot into the upbringing of their sons, and can be fiercely protective of them to the point that they are allowed to behave extremely badly, but any suggestion that they need any kind of discipline or sanctions is interpreted as being “picked on”.

A sad but hopefully unrelated situation occurred when one of my sons attended a choir in which it turned out that the choirmaster was a paedophile and would abuse selected boys on performances away from home. The selected boys were the ones from single-parent families – for one thing, the boy might well try to hide it so as not to disappoint a mother who was thrilled with her son’s musical progress, and also being a coward the choir master wouldn’t dare abuse a boy whose father he saw at choir events.
Here is another mother’s complaint against a passive or quasi-corporal punishment that usually involves the nose and not the tongue. My father had to stick his tongue out in the 1920’s and the nuns would snap his tongue with a rubber band. A jury of public opinion from that neck of the woods would definitely take the teacher’s side. What was the sense of complaining when we had nuns from the same order? My mother came to my defense on another matter that involved a personal insult outside the scope of the estimable Forum.

CLICK
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Jan 27, 2017#137
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Slight bruising of this sort should not come as a surprise. N.B. the tape on the paddle as drawn.

CLICK

Missouri The Show Me State.

Corporal punishment should always be administered in a manner that is fair, non-abusive, and that will not cause permanent physical damage. Occasional bruises are not indicative of abuse or unnecessary force, as bruising potential varies from person to person.

Page 8

CLICK

A H Roberts Elementary School.

It’s a rare paddling was a rare event in the Survey Year 2013 in the school.

CLICK

1.1% of Students At This School Were Received Corporal Punishment By Ethnicity:1.1% of 460 White students By Gender: 2.0% of 252 males.

CLICK
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Mar 10, 2017#138
School CP has fallen into disrepute in most jurisdictions. It is still used in the USA. In the USA there are many complaints. My impression is that most of these complaints are lodged by mothers. Fathers complain rarely and hardly ever about their son’s being “done”.

I challenge members to post here recent cases where dads have complained.

Syracuse Journal, May 15, 1912.

CLICK
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May 28, 2018#139
Mothers are often outraged more than their fathers when it comes to, deservedly or underservedly, inflicting pain on their darling daughters’ derrières.

Newberry Herald News.

March 23, 1892.

Clothing adjustments had to be made for the girl to be properly pained during her corporal chastisement as reported in the second link.

Corsets and stays or old postings for our veteran viewers.

http://topyoashgames.com/autoplay-wives … igh-heels/

They avoided their bathing suit areas for other parts of their anatomies in the 19th century when it came to schoolgirls but not when used in the borstal context.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 83%2C5142/
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dane
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May 29, 2018#140
mother’s are generally more protective of their children than fathers… deadbeat moms who abandon their children are a problem but not on anything near the scale of deadbeat dads. the fact that its usually mother who object more to scp is because they are generally the ones who are most involved in their children’s day to day welfare… it isn’t an indictment of overprotective mother’s so much as underprotective fathers
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Jun 03, 2018#141
This Mom wanted to know whether it hurt. No complaining from this mother.

Dane superintendents are often elected, ergo approved by the community, they will be reelected if they choose principlals of the electorate’s liking. Under these circumstances could you organize mothers that hold paddling as abhorrent as you do or would you settle for just opting out.

CBS did a story about students in Everton TX that overwhelmingly would choose to being spanked by a swat team of quite a few teachers to detention. They may be none to happy with a parent that opted out.

Some of our readers felt that the volunteer boy and girl filmed were paddled much less harshly for the benefit of some viewers that may have objected if a real paddling was chose.

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Jun 03, 2018#142
This Mom wanted to know whether it hurt. No complaining from this mother.

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dane
405
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Jun 03, 2018#143
well in the rural south i would concede many mothers are fine with scp, but i think they are more likely to both notice and to take issue if they think their child actually sustained injury… especially what might be considered moderate injury such as bruising
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2015holyfamily
360
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Jun 09, 2018#144
Scroll down second column. Maternal complaint. George Alfred got his comeuppance.

Washington D.C. Evening Star December 18, 1906.

http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
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Sep 15, 2018#145
The mother was jailed for six months for striking on the head of the assistant principal with the very same paddle she used on her very own 7-year-old son.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Y64DA … le&f=false

http://www.pellcitylibrary.com/wp-conte … 7-1987.pdf

https://www.annistonstar.com/the_st_cla … de30b.html
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dane
405
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Sep 16, 2018#146
a true hero… dare i say martyr to the resistance
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Oct 27, 2018#147
The role of the mother with regard to corporal punishment reminded me of one of my prior posting.

1935.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=d … ools&hl=en
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CathyG
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Oct 29, 2018#148
Since my uncle was the headmaster/principal, no one questioned our spankings at school.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Feb 12, 2020#149
It is hard to believe that ladies refrain to talk but this was 1890. When someone calls me a misogynists I tell them, “don’t call me something I can’t pronounce.” But cut me some slack, as a newborn, the doctor spanked my bottom and my Mom didn’t stand up for me. I don’t know whether that was true but I am in no position to argue. Be that as it may, I haven’t come up with a better reason yet.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 98%2C6947/
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Apr 07, 2020#150
Hell knows no wrath than an irate mother has just been spanked.

First time offenders are still paddled for public displays of affection. It was no different in 1897 Maine as this sly rogue learned the hard way that there are girls that are kiss and tell like Theda Leakin

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 90%2C4836/

I would pay all the money in the world to be a fly on the wall during that battle.

Don’t you just love the name of the Judge?

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 67%2C5889/
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Apr 07, 2020#151
Hello American Way,

I do not know how the snippets displayed from the Chronicling America site are actually selected, and I know that the persistent link can be used to view the whole page, though I wonder how many readers bother to do this.

I do think it is a pity though that the selection of snippets mechanism, whatever it may be, does not allow more precise framing of individual articles, as it is very easy to do this manually and any competent programmer should have had no difficulty in incorporating the algorithm into the selection app.

The Laforest Humphrey case

Police Judge Cabaniss & Mrs Gulatoine
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Apr 08, 2020#152
A_L Do you think it would be more helpful that along with the snippet that instead of asking the reader to hit the persistent link that I would simply give the pdf? When you read the snippet it shouldn’t too hard to find the article for it is a single page.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Apr 08, 2020#153
Hello American Way,

There’s no doubt that you are doing the best possible article links given the limitations of the site. I’m not sure about giving the PDF link, sometimes the articles are quite small and it possibly wouldn’t be any easier to find them on the PDF than it is on the persistent link. Also I hesitate to say that everyone can readily deal with PDFs.

There are so many different browsers and settings within browsers these days. I know I’m perhaps an extreme case but in my normal browsing mode because of my security settings PDFs don’t display, they trigger a warning asking if I’m sure they are safe and if so do I want to download them. If I do want them I download them then look at them outwith the browser.

Up to you really, but I suppose the fact that I’m the only person who ever comments on the shortfalls of some of the automatic snippets may tell us something. Possibly most of our readers aren’t as bloody awkward inquisitive as me and are happy just to see part of the account in many instances.

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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Aug 16, 2020#154
Even in 1853 Pennsylvania teachers had to listen to the parents of crybabies. How many generations of teachers had to listen to them? Don’t they know they are creating the same monsters they see in their own mirror? Maybe if they look through the school window they wouldn’t be so harsh when they see their own darling son or daughter acting up.

Fourth column.

https://panewsarchive.psu.edu/lccn/sn84 … d-1/seq-1/
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KKxyz
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Aug 19, 2020#155
2015holyfamilypenguin wrote: ↑Aug 16, 2020
Even in 1853 Pennsylvania teachers had to listen to the parents of crybabies. How many generations of teachers had to listen to them? Don’t they know they are creating the same monsters they see in their own mirror? Maybe if they look through the school window they wouldn’t be so harsh when they see their own darling son or daughter acting up.

Fourth column.

https://panewsarchive.psu.edu/lccn/sn84 … d-1/seq-1/
Unfortunately I have been quite unable to make ay sense of this. Is it a quotation or a paraphrasing or a personal observation concerning something on the front page of the Miners’ Journal and Pottsville General Advertiser of January 29, 1853?

If so, it does not seem to be relevant to anything in column 4 of page 1.

American Way has discovered and reported some real gems but I am usually too lazy to try to digest his posts. I have got into the habit of skipping most of them.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Aug 19, 2020#156
I trust some will treasure as a “gem” that will come up on page 2 as I had reasons to believe would when I posted the link. Anyone would start posting elsewhere if they felt their postings were so burdensome to read that they would merit being skipped over.
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KKxyz
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Aug 19, 2020#157
Thanks American Way. The item you were commenting on is:

https://panewsarchive.psu.edu:443/lccn/ … 2840,3535/

The writer may not understand that many illiterate or barely literate parents in rural areas did not value education. Firstly, they needed the children’s labour and found it difficult to cope when the children were in school. Secondly they did not want their children being exposed to dubious new fangled ideas that might undermine the status quo. Thirdly, it is difficult for parents when their children are smarter than them. It can undermine parental authority.

I often find errors in my own postings immediately they are posted. It is a pity there is no easy way from posters to edit their own contributions after submission.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 19, 2020#158
Hello KK,

I believe that it may be possible to edit your own posts after publication if you use something called ‘the Tapatalk App’ and/or upgrade your membership to VIP+. I’m afraid I cannot be more helpful than that. I don’t do Apps and have no truck with VIPs.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Aug 19, 2020#159
Hi kk

I remember when you discovered that the word shingle could be used for paddle as in shingle house, hair or boy in 1898. He worked as a carpenter, a barber and a schoolteacher. Third paragraph up from the humorous article in the last column.

https://panewsarchive.psu.edu/lccn/sn86 … /seq-2.jp2
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Aug 26, 2020#160
Maybe or maybe not? Does the town of Springtown, Texas ring a bell? Do the names Taylor Santos and her friend Jada Watts ring a bell? Their Moms’ knickers were atwist because a male principal paddled their precious daughters’ bottoms. How often do you here such much as a peep out of their daughters?

Can you count the number of girls tweeting about that occurring in their accounts? Why not? I would contend that is not a problem if every generation entrusted that task to the position they hold and not their gender. They judge the person worthy of trust by their character and not their gender. A small town knows their own and who is trustworthy and who is not. That was just as true in 1930 as in 2020.

https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers. … ——-0–
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postAug 26, 2020#161
Extrapolating from the last time Springtown, Texas reported their paddling information there were about 35 out of the 500 girls paddled? Why should they be surprised that form of correction was needed to administered on their darlings more than the other 465 girls. Who’s fault is that? They knew if their children didn’t behave they would be spanked but didn’t know what the consequences of what they were signing. Who’s fault is that? They and their daughters lost their gamble and were sore losers.

Boo hoo hoo hoo.

The city of Springtown accommodated them when the out of town media came at them because the two queen bees of their city buzzed. What shocked their conscience was not shocking to the citizens who vote periodically for their school committee members that could bring their policies in line with the rest of the country.
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Unread postAug 26, 2020#162
Here is the latest revision of the student handbook of Springtown. They weren’t going to stop paddling their students on account of some busy bees as you can see in black and white. I wonder what the townsfolks think of the two families that brought unwanted and perhaps unwarranted attention upon their populace? I bet some would want to paddle the two mama-bears.

Consent to the Use of Corporal Punishment
Corporal punishment—spanking or paddling a student—may be used as a discipline management technique in accordance with the Student Code of Conduct and district policy FO(LOCAL).
If you choose to allow corporal punishment to be administered to your child as a method of student discipline, please complete the form for this which is available in the principal’s office. A signed statement must be provided for each instance in which you intend to allow corporal punishment to be administered to your child.
Policy FO(LOCAL) reminds each student that corporal punishment may only be utilized once per semester. However, district personnel may choose to use discipline methods other than corporal punishment even if the parent requests that this method be used on the student.
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Another_Lurker
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Unread postAug 26, 2020#163
Hello American Way,

Ah the redneck capital of Texas, sorry, Springtown.

Where in 2012 a male Assistant Principal at the High School paddled 16 year old Jada Watt (on the left of the picture, holding her ‘citation’) for ‘smarting off’ to a male police officer. The paddling was witnessed by the police officer concerned, who was nothing to do with the school or the ISD (Independent School District, sort of US equivalent of the English LEA, though generally smaller and with more direct local involvement than an LEA) which controlled the High School.

This despite the fact that the then extant ISD corporal punishment rules applicable to the school specified that students should be paddled by an ISD employee of the same sex as the student, with another ISD employee as witness.

The male Assistant Principal concerned had also taken the opportunity around this time to whack another equally pretty teenage girl. When the mothers of the two girls raised a complaint about the manner in which the girls had been punished the matter was referred to the ISD. The male Assistant Principal concerned, who had been in post for some time, quite openly declared to the ISD that he’d never bothered to read the rules concerning the corporal punishment of students.

Despite this the good ol’ boys on the ISD not only let him keep his post but also altered the requirement for paddlings to be administered by an employee of the same sex as the student, so that in future he could whack teenage female bottoms with impunity. The individual concerned had apparently lived in the town all his life and had attended the same high school himself.

Now possibly I am being unjust in demeaning Springtown and suspecting that the Assistant Principal concerned decided that he’d have a bit of a jolly with his policeman friend and at the same time teach a teenage girl perceived as a bit too uppity a lesson by making her bend over and present her bottom to be paddled in front of two men.

But if I am being unjust I think so are you in your dismissal of Jada and Taylor as ‘queen bees’ and their mothers as ‘mama-bears’. Both the girls and the mothers had legitimate cause for complaint. The fact that the Assistan Principal’s actions had precipitated those complaints and that the ISD, in complete contravention of common sense and justice, had failed to uphold them, reflects on the Assistant Principal and the ISD, not on the girls or their mothers.
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dmp
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Unread postAug 27, 2020#164
i recalling reading and perhaps posting that although they changed the rules to allow mixed gender spankings in theory, they actually stopped paddling in practice soon after this incident.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postAug 27, 2020#165
Springtown never with any consistency submitted mandated annual OCR statistics. My percentages were taken from the only year they submitted their figures. However inconsistent their reporting or adherence to rules I calculated their chances of being paddled according to the last statistics they did submit.

Spare me the tears but the two, kindly described spoiled brats, calculated their chances of escaping consequences for such flagrant violations to their detriment. They fought the law and the law won.

Don’t take me wrong for I am not bragging about my kindness but any fair minded person (with the obvious exception of the ever contentious A_L) that watch the airing of their mothers’ grievances would laud me for finding such a benign word as “mamabear” in describing the likes of the two of them.
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Unread postAug 27, 2020#166
Why would all these parents be so pugilistic far back in history? Was it more often their perception of the punishment being unjust from what they were told or was it more the tell-tale marks or a little bit of both? The use of the word, “darling,” says what they think of their complaints.

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=LAH18950804 … nt——-1
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Another_Lurker
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Unread postAug 28, 2020#167
Hello dane,

I wonder if in your contribution #164 above you are referring to this post.
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dmp
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#168
yes that was the post i was thinking of, but i don’t remember what my evidence was
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#169
Their right to spank their students have not been abridged and they certainly have had time to revise their handbook. Sometimes just knowing their not exempt suffices to accomplish the purpose of having their students to abide by the code of conduct written in their handbooks by their lawfully elected community leaders. That is the way it is in a democracy. Choose another form of government than the American Way.

https://www.weatherforddemocrat.com/new … c4a8a.html
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#170
BE THAT AS IT MAY dane MATCH IT IF YOU CAN. ????

https://virginiachronicle.com/?a=q&r=1& … ion——-
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dmp
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#171
rape is still rape even if the perpetrators are legally protected from the consequences of their actions… they may not be able to be prosecuted for their vile and degenerate sexual attacks on children and adolescents but it does make them any less vile and degenerate.
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Another_Lurker
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#172
Hello American Way,

Surely you cannot be suggesting in your contribution #169 that the USA is a democracy? It quite clearly isn’t. Substantial elements of the population are regularly forced to take to the streets to complain about inequality in the eyes of the law and in civic affairs.

But worse still they are forced to complain about access to the vote, the very foundation stone of democracy, with blatant suppression of access to voting rights and, even where such rights have been hard won, the juggling of blocks of votes to ensure that for certain elements of the population the value of the vote is nullified or reduced.

I’m afraid that for those of us out here in the rest of the world the image of the shining city on the hill disappeared years ago. Another four years of Mr Trump and you’ll be up there with the world’s worst!
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dmp
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#173
wait gerrymandering and voter suppression are the cornerstones of representative democracy aren’t they… what’s next some crazy pie in the sky talk about universal suffrage and minority rights
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pi0591
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#174
dmp wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2020
rape is still rape even if the perpetrators are legally protected from the consequences of their actions… they may not be able to be prosecuted for their vile and degenerate sexual attacks on children and adolescents but it does make them any less vile and degenerate.
Hello, dmp – I don’t think we’ve been in discussion before, but I’m puzzled why you are raising questions about rape (whether legal or moral ones) in the middle of a forum which discusses corporal punishment?

Firstly, you offer us the assertion – actually very questionable – that an action might be a crime even when the law (in a presumably democratic country) rules that that particular action is not a crime. Or perhaps you simply know better…

Secondly, you allude to “vile and degenerate sexual attacks”. Every single contributor or reader here would deplore sexual assaults on minors – or indeed on adults. Perhaps you’d like to start up your own forum and pursue that worthy cause.

But please, no more false analogies.

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Another_Lurker
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Unread postAug 29, 2020#175
Hello dane,

Universal suffrage and minority rights! Hell, I got me my AR-15 and you’ll have to prise it from my cold dead hand before we have any truck with that commie nonsense!

And therein I fear is the almost inevitable future of your once great nation. Another civil war or degeneration into barbarism and armed encampments.

Remember you read it here first. Errm, well probably you didn’t as it’s becoming quite a common prediction!
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postAug 30, 2020#176
I am sure A_L you would not be saying such disparaging remarks about Trump if the Dixie Chicks were still posting. It would be inconsistent with your obsequience. I do take comfort in Renee (MAWA) saying that Jennifer and Michelle are not monolithic when it comes to their politics.

The right to peaceful assembly has been embedded in our constitution for a reason. Consistent with that I have lauded Paula Flowe for doing so and a school committee from North Carolina for inviting her as an outsider to make her case that proved unpersuasive. Her perseverance paid off in diamonds less than a decade later.

Please note MAWA is not a typo for MAMA nor is it MAGA but MakeAmericaWhiteAgain. Churchill was right on of what he said of democracy. It is a testament that we have stayed together longer than three of my lifetimes.

impeachment without a conviction means nothing nor may a contested election. We are always struggling to be a more perfect union but the likes of what I have seen in the past four years has saddened me beyond description. There is no Utopia and sometimes I think of fleeing to Jefferson Davis’s refuge.

Where was his post-Civil War president refuge? I am sure even Renee (not the brightest crayon nor the sharpest pencil in the box) would not know. She never atoned for the sins of the Confederacy nor ever admitted defeat nor for ever being wrong. Every swat of her paddle was for the temporal or for the eternal good of her charges.

A_L don’t get me going of I’ll get into a roll.
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Another_Lurker
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Unread postAug 30, 2020#177
Hello American Way,

I don’t disparage your president or your once great nation lightly. I used to be a believer in the shining city on the hill! But as the years have passed it has become more and more evident that as a nation you are bent on self destruction.

You are not alone. We are doing pretty well in moving in that direction over here, but not nearly as well as you! It may well be that the ultimate end of all advanced societies is to return to the dust from whence they came as a result of their own folly..

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: “Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
‘My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!’
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

Ozymandias
Percy Bysshe Shelley – 1792-1822

BTW, are you aware that a number of the more intelligent of those who left to join the Not-so-private Forum were of the very strong opinion that Renee was black? They had pretty convincing arguments to back it up too.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postAug 30, 2020#178
Blacks are more tolerant towards lesbian: Renee is definitely white.
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dmp
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Unread postAug 30, 2020#179
pi0591 wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2020
Hello, dmp – I don’t think we’ve been in discussion before, but I’m puzzled why you are raising questions about rape (whether legal or moral ones) in the middle of a forum which discusses corporal punishment?

But please, no more false analogies.

Click to expand…
sorry i sometimes forget to state my entire position, thinking most of the members already know it, which is a bit unfair. i’m not making an analogy between rape/sexual assault and scp, i believe strongly that school corporal punishment, especially when applied to the back side of the victim is a form of sexual assault/rape. you are violently striking them on as portion of their anatomy which you would be charged with sexual battery for touching gently without on an adult without their consent. school paddling is clearly a violent attack on a sexual part of the students anatomy, therefore a violent sexual assault. i therefore regard school personnel who engage is such paddlings as serial rapists of children/violent pedophiles . laws may be passed to give exceptions to this sort of assault, to make it impossible to prosecute an act which otherwise would clearly fit the legal definition of a violent sexual assault, but these get out of jail free cards issued to administrators in the american south don’t change the basic nature of the act, even though they deny the victims legal recourse for their suffering.
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Another_Lurker
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Unread postAug 30, 2020#180
Hello American Way,

Clearly you are a party to or have noted something that I have missed, because I confess I have formed no opinion on Renee’s attitude to those of a sapphic tendency.

I can guess what it might be based on my life experience and the character attributes Renee displayed, but a guess is exactly what it would be, and for aught I know Renee may anyway have been playing a role here and in her blog. Indeed the opinion of our former members that I quoted was based on exactly that premise.

But even if there was overwhelming evidence that the real Renee totally detested lesbians, is it really safe to make an absolute pronouncement on someone’s racial background as a result of their attitude to those of an alternate sexual persuasion? I’d have thought not. There are countries in black Africa where manifesting an alternate sexuality can bring persecution, imprisonment, or even death. See LGBT rights in Africa.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postAug 30, 2020#181
Renee bragged about conceptually being ahead of the curve in embracing young ladies with same gender attraction but had to make a concession to her sorority for the good of all the females. Shamefully, she did the same in defending her broad minded ancestry in the days when Blacks were being treated at their poorest.

Renee has obviously not read of the fate of the neutral Angels of Dante’s Canto III. I will heed Virgil’s counsel and look away from these wretched souls of the God above Satan below. Please A_L no more talk of Renee. I don’t believe in guilt by association. I like Jennifer and Michele by what I have read.
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pi0591
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Unread postAug 30, 2020#182
dmp wrote: ↑Aug 30, 2020
pi0591 wrote: ↑Aug 29, 2020
Hello, dmp – I don’t think we’ve been in discussion before, but I’m puzzled why you are raising questions about rape (whether legal or moral ones) in the middle of a forum which discusses corporal punishment?

But please, no more false analogies.

sorry i sometimes forget to state my entire position, thinking most of the members already know it, which is a bit unfair. i’m not making an analogy between rape/sexual assault and scp, i believe strongly that school corporal punishment, especially when applied to the back side of the victim is a form of sexual assault/rape. you are violently striking them on as portion of their anatomy which you would be charged with sexual battery for touching gently without on an adult without their consent. school paddling is clearly a violent attack on a sexual part of the students anatomy, therefore a violent sexual assault. i therefore regard school personnel who engage is such paddlings as serial rapists of children/violent pedophiles . laws may be passed to give exceptions to this sort of assault, to make it impossible to prosecute an act which otherwise would clearly fit the legal definition of a violent sexual assault, but these get out of jail free cards issued to administrators in the american south don’t change the basic nature of the act, even though they deny the victims legal recourse for their suffering.
Click to expand…
Rrright. Well, thank you for that elucidation of your views. You are entitled to your personal opinion, as long as it remains just that – a personal view. You must be a minority of one on this forum, I guess, and a pretty small minority in society at large. Many people – very many – have reservations about the use of physical punishment, and can see both sides of the argument[ and they mostly come down only marginally on one or the other side of the yes-no line.

I am not sure, as I priorly asserted so it should come to know surprise, that dane is a male even if there is not a soul that agrees with me. The same would be true if everyone thinks Renee is black. We are who we say we are as it should be here.
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dmp
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#184
pi0591 wrote: ↑Aug 30, 2020

That’s my position, too; I realise that social trends swing to and fro, but I’m not convinced it’s always for the better. But hey ho, if you say that I’m a violent sexual rapist, then I suppose you must be right. I will peer at myself in the mirror and see if I can detect a sinister scowl or a twisted grin.
i have no idea as the whether or not you are personally a rapist, i merely argue that school personnel who administer scp are in fact rapists. as to staring into the mirror i very much doubt that would do any good, i strongly believe in the mundanity of evil and that evil people is give societal justification for their evil will not see any trace of their own monsterousness under cursory introspection. nazi party members didn’t see beasts staring back at themselves from the mirror in hitler’s germany, khmer rouge fighters didn’t see demons smiling up at them from still water in the killing fields and principals in the american south don’t see the devil winking at them as they wash their hands in the school restrooms.
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pi0591
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#185
OK, well I can see that my ironic humour was misplaced in any discussion with you. More happily, though, this is the last comment of any kind that I’ll make in your direction. Your characterisation of me alongside Nazis and Khmer Rouge is absolutely outrageous. Both committed genocide and both personified unspeakable evil. There are contributors here whom I can debate with, courteously disagree with, and learn from. You, on the contrary, haven’t a clue how to take part in reasonable debate; perhaps, from behind your anonymity, you just enjoy the mischief. But your comment above is simply a disgrace.

Who knows, you might just re-read, and find it in you to apologise. But to me, you are now an irrelevance.
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dmp
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#186
lol irony… hyperbole they can all be tricky online… as for hiding you could probably do an image search on my avatar and find out exactly who i am in real life, i have made no real effort to hide.
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AlanTuringBletchley
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#187
I’d just like to barge in here.

“i merely argue that school personnel who administer scp are in fact rapists”

Well, that’s wrong on a number of levels. First, it is literally false. The term “rape” has a clear definition, and misusing it insults those (mostly, but not universally, women) who have actually been raped.

Secondly, it ignores the administration of corporal punishment by caning or belting on the palm of the hand. That cannot, by any stretch of the imagination, be considered as sexual.

Thirdly, I do not believe that (for example) the female class teacher who, when I was seven, applied her slipper to the bottoms of a couple of dozen boys (and one girl) could in any sense be said to have raped them. The difference between the effect on these children of the temporary pain and embarrassment of the punishment, and the major trauma of rape, is so enormous that I have to doubt the seriousness of anyone who claims that they are the same. Some of these children (including the girl) would, in later years, boast of the punishments they’d received. Does anyone know of somebody who has boasted of having been raped?

What is true, though, is that there have been plenty of cases where teachers have gained sexual pleasure from inflicting corporal punishment. That’s plenty in terms of absolute numbers, but tiny in terms of proportion. When I was at school, I saw numerous instances of class corporal punishment, but there was only one occasion where there was any hint of sexual overtones, and this was around a threat of punishment rather than its actual use. (This teacher was well known to be gay, and he expressed the threat in a way which indicated that actually inflicting the punishment would have given him pleasure.)

But that’s not the same as rape.
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dmp
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#188
scp on the hands would in my opinion merely be a violent assault… scp on the bottom is sexual assault based on the fact it is an assault on a sexual part of the body, a part of the body which if touched without consent is considered sexual battery even if done without violence in any other context, it has no relevance whether or not the person inflicting the assault received sexual pleasure from the act, the same way penetrating a person against their will with an object is a sexual assault regardless of whether the attacker was aroused at the time. as to whether a scp sexual assault rises to the level of rape is a matter of semantics and definition of terms… i think it is close enough to fit the term for the purpose of general conversation, if others want to split hairs, far be it from me to stop them.
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AlanTuringBletchley
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#189
Nope. Rape involves penetration. An attack which doesn’t involve penetration isn’t rape. Taking care with words — semantics — is important. It’s what you’re supposed to have been taught at school.
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Sorepants
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#190
I never regarded having my bottom whacked at school as a remotely sexual experience, and I’m quite sure most of the other students didn’t either. I don’t know if any teachers got any sexual gratification from it, but it seems a bit unlikely, although some of us did think that some of them might have enjoyed inflicting pain on others. But that isn’t really the same thing.
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bripuk
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Unread postAug 31, 2020#191
Agreed Sorepants. Being caned or slippered bloody well hurt and left you with a sore backside for sometime afterwards. There was one PE teacher who probably enjoyed inflicting pain on others but I’m not sure he derived sexual pleasure from it. He was just a nasty piece of work.
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dmp
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Unread postSep 01, 2020#192
AlanTuringBletchley wrote: ↑Aug 31, 2020
Nope. Rape involves penetration. An attack which doesn’t involve penetration isn’t rape. Taking care with words — semantics — is important. It’s what you’re supposed to have been taught at school.
rape requiring penetration is generally true from a statutory prospective, but since scp is generally protected from legal prosecution anyway its not that relevant to our present . but it can certainly be argued that sexual assault or sexual battery which are more modern terms and which do not generally require penetration can be used interchangeably with rape in a general discussion. here is an article which is titled No Penetration – And It’s Still Rape” published over 20 years ago. perhaps different schools teach different things at different times and its not safe to assume someone who uses words differently than you were taught is necessarily doing so out of ignorance. https://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/c … ontext=plr
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AlanTuringBletchley
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Unread postSep 01, 2020#193
OK, the title is “No Penetration – And It’s Still Rape”; but have you actually read the article?

Look at Section III, “Redefining Rape”, starting on page 30. On the next page, the author writes:

I proposed the question of redefining rape, from a woman’s perspective, to my Women and the Law seminar at Nova Southeastern University Shepard Broad Law Center. One definition from the students, which was comprised of fourteen females and three males, was as follows:

“Sexual battery means either the anal, clitoral, oral, penile, or vaginal intrusion by, or the junction with, the sexual organ of another, or the anal, clitoral, penile, or vaginal intrusion by any other object or body part. Intrusion means the act of entering into the physical area intended for one’s exclusive use and control in an inappropriate and unwanted manner without invitation or permission.”

The author also says that several other definitions were proposed. But that’s what they were: proposals, with the idea that they might be considered by a legislature. So have they been? If so, where and with what result?

But anyway, that’s not the same as the use of a word in “ordinary conversation”. The meaning of a word comes from how it’s actually used, not how you might wish it to be used. So look it up in a dictionary. Here’s the definition from the online Merriam Webster dictionary:

unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person’s will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception

School corporal punishment, applied to the buttocks, is a long way from that definition of how the word is actually used.

One final point. The cited article was written from an explicitly feminist viewpoint, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I’d like to point out that when SCP was legal in the UK, and in those parts of the USA where it is still legal, the majority of punishments were and are administered to boys (or, if it’s a better description, young men). If you want to redefine the word “rape” to include any assault on a student’s backside, would you regard the corporal punishment of boys as rape? There are a couple of posts in this thread, just above, from two men who state that they were punished in this way when they were at school, and I’d be astounded if either of them felt that they had been raped; maybe you’d better ask them.

And if you want to restrict use of the word (in this proposed redefinition) to the punishment of girls (or, if it’s a better description, young women) then why?

PS In the film of Cole Porter’s musical “Kiss me, Kate” the woman playing Kate in the “play within a play” is shown as being put over a man’s knee and spanked. That’s a depiction of an invasion of her personal space, and it’s also a depiction of assault. But are you really suggesting that it should be viewed as a depiction of rape? Seriously?
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dmp
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Unread postSep 01, 2020#194
if you prefer to think of scp on the buttocks as sexual battery or sexual assault and not actual technical rape i can understand your position, likewise if you think it is more appropriate to refer to school staff who inflict such attacks as violent sexual offenders or violent sexual predators and not as rapists i can respect the distinction you feel needs to be made.
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AlanTuringBletchley
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73
Unread postSep 01, 2020#195
Thanks for the clarification. I’m happy to continue discussing this, but I really would like to know whether the descriptors are supposed to be applied only when the person receiving punishment is a girl/young woman, or whether they would apply also when the person is a boy/young man.
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dmp
191
11
Unread postSep 04, 2020#196
i would certainly apply it to both genders(or all genders) but i concede it feels more like a sexual assault to me when the victim is female. probably because it is less acceptable in general to strike a woman, especially in a sexual area of her body.
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AlanTuringBletchley
626
73
Unread postSep 04, 2020#197
Thanks. I agree that there have been instances of school corporal punishment (of both male and female students) which can rightly be described as violent sexual assault, and where the perpetrator can rightly be described as a sexual predator. Some of these have made it to court; no doubt many others haven’t. My interest, though, is whether it would be correct to use these descriptors for every case of corporal punishment applied to the buttocks.

For example, you use the term “woman”, and for older female students that would be correct. But would it be right to describe the use of corporal punishment on younger children in the same way?

To be specific, let’s take the experiences I’ve mentioned several times in this Forum, of observing classroom punishments when I was a little under eight years old. In the three months at the end of 1957 I would have observed maybe a couple of dozen such punishments, all administered by a female teacher. In each case the pupil was told to bend over a chair at the front of the class, and a single blow with a gym shoe was applied to the child’s bottom. In all but one of the cases the pupil was a boy, wearing ordinary short trousers (= USA pants, I suppose) over, I assume, ordinary underwear. In the exceptional case the pupil was a girl, and her thick skirt was moved away so that the punishment was applied to her underwear (which could not be described as skimpy).

Clearly these punishments all constituted assault and battery, and they involved a certain amount of violence, but they would not have led to criminal prosecution because in those days there was a defence of reasonable chastisement of a child under the implicit delegated authority of the parent (rather like, in different circumstances, “self-defence” would be a defence to a similar criminal charge).

But did they constitute sexual assault? Of course pre-pubescent children can be subject to genuine sexual assault, but is it right to apply that description in these cases? And was the teacher a sexual predator? I should say that, as far as I’m aware, none of these children ever gave any hint that they felt that they had been sexually assaulted, even when talking to their friends about “getting the slipper” as they called it. It was just a punishment which either hurt a lot, or didn’t hurt very much.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Unread postSep 04, 2020#198
While finding the violent imagery rather distasteful I quite frequently find myself of the same mind as dane.

However there is absolutely no way that I am going to be persuaded that my teachers at primary school, most of whom whacked on ‘private area’s of the body, sometimes displacing clothing to make the punishment more effective, were violent sexual predators en masse.

They did what they needed to do to run large (quite often 50+ pupils) classes without help. No classroom assistants in those days, just one lone adult in the classroom with a lot of often fairly boisterous children.

They provided me, and a great many other children, with an education which on balance has been more instrumental in enabling me to earn a good living that a lot of what I learnt at secondary school, and they did it against considerable odds. I am grateful to each and everyone of those who taught me regularly and I remember their names with great respect.

There was one possible suspect for the sexual predator role. He appeared at the school briefly and took my class for a few days. He departed the profession fairly quickly which in adult hindsight I think was probably the best outcome.
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Unread postSep 04, 2020#199
Arragh! I’m certain that apostrophe wasn’t there when I pressed the submit button! It was a closing single quote after the terminal s.

But if it was there the fault is entirely mine and absolutely nothing to do with any deficiencies on the part of my primary school teachers!
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beanokid1
228
20
Unread postSep 06, 2020#200
Sorepants wrote: ↑Aug 31, 2020
I never regarded having my bottom whacked at school as a remotely sexual experience, and I’m quite sure most of the other students didn’t either. I don’t know if any teachers got any sexual gratification from it, but it seems a bit unlikely, although some of us did think that some of them might have enjoyed inflicting pain on others. But that isn’t really the same thing.
This may not be an appropriate question to ask: but did you regard seeing other people having their bottoms whacked, or hearing about, as a sexual experience? Would you be surprised if some of your fellow students did?
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
69
Unread postOct 14, 2020#201
Complaints by parents over the treatment of their darling sons and daughters are no thing new. Parents, with blood in their eyes, would act rashly. Safeguards were wisely put in place in the days of yore just as laws are enacted to keep parents from making frivolous suits against the duly authorized charged with acting as a responsible parent would act in maintaining order in their own homes. The southern families are more likely to spank their children at home when they misbehave.

Posted in this thread for purpose of revelance. Human nation doesn’t change even over a century and a quarter. The policy was written in August to be implemented in September. When they spanked they must haven’t meant business. I would imagine corporal punishment inflicted upon their darling daughters that in their eyes could do no wrong caused the most outrage. Shadowing is a policy now adopted to help disabuse parents of this notion.

Comments on this link, as always, is welcomed.

https://cdnc.ucr.edu/?a=d&d=LAH18950804 … 22——-1
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Unread postOct 28, 2020#202
I guess fathers can be as guilty as mothers in 1825 New Hampshire when it comes to frivolous suits. The jury didn’t buy into the narrative of the tender parents account of their dear little innocents. Any sound minded man would have acquitted the teacher. The judge and the jornalist were of the same mind.

https://virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=GL … ent——-
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School Whackings

top middle or bottom

Appropriate Corporal Punishment to Stop Young People Smoking.

Notes on Corporal Punishment & Curious Punishments of Bygone Days

Paddle Discipline The Science Part 2

spanking as a form of sex abuse (some definite non-fiction)

bare bottom spanking by teachers at school

first school spanking you ever witnessed

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