Southern Education

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/schoolcorporalpunishment/southern-education-t2588-s90.html#p75696

Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Willy
Apr 14, 2010#2
Will, I asked this question on your other topic exactly about this subject and photo.
How common was it for male teachers to paddle girls in American schools? Did they have any restrictions, like girls age, clothing, witnesses etc?
I also read other accounts where it was common in many American schools for boys to be spanked bared with pants down in front of mixed class. Though this seems to have been before the 60’s and in junior classes only for boys up to about 10 or 11 years old. I wonder if anyone can confirm this.
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Chirob
1,045
Apr 14, 2010#3
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Yes Will; That has been posted before.

And no Willy, you can put your willy away boys were not spanked bare bottom or in their undies unless they got caught doing something in the locker room or showers.
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Willy
Apr 14, 2010#4
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Just curious, but was the paddle the only CP ever used in American schools? Of all the posts on every forum I ever read it seems that only the paddle is ever mentioned.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Apr 14, 2010#5
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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will: It’s primarily a site to foster fear by the anti-CP zealots.

Jeff Charles states the suggestively model shown throughout his Southern Education site is looking for a job. Don’t think a few fetishists have taken delight.

The 2005 Texas paddling uses a professional adult site model with the towel is shown in their link. They’re not averse to showing the nude backside of a professional model. There are similar bulls eye bruises on both cheeks. I suppose that proves indeed it was done by a professional on both ends. Adult models must be paid a lot and given the marring of their bottoms must put them out of work for a few weeks.

Re: Bruises. The state of Missouri allows parents to opt out and explains that bruising is to be expected. The deep tissue bruising is not acceptable as shown below. Most girls are paddled by woman and almost always witnessed by one for the last decade so it’s not surprising Jeff Charles has abandoned his book. He shows remarkably little concern for the three times as many boys paddled. I guess he’s more interested in girls bottoms than the truth. Nothing wrong with the former but don’t look to the anti-CP zealots for the truth.

Second time posted.

http://nospankingzone.org/_wsn/page2.html

I’m kind of curious. Would the model under Google: “casey ferrand corporal punishment” be the very same girl? That’s Samantha Woodley and no school should allow a porn star to pose in a corridor. They could charge money. Someone in authority should be taken to task for that especially if money indeed was exchanged.
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Apr 14, 2010#6
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Principals and headmasters paddling and caning naughty girls are more in the land of fantasy. Thak goodeness in the past. There is no lack of sites that feature pictorial depiction. As you can imagine with models required to be 18 years old there is a lot of pushing the envelope. Cartoons (previously posted) and more realistic computer generated images are ways they circumvent the law. What will they think of next? Viirtual reality. Custom spanking art specializes in all kinds of fantasies including school corporal punishment on both sides of the pond. It fuels the fires of its opponents with fodder while selling a product. Capitalism and pornography go hand in hand when it comnes to illustrated news reports. I wonder how much some of the anti-CP lobbyists make money?

Strict Schools (M/F) illustrated news reports
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Another_Lurker
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Apr 15, 2010#7
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi American Way. You say above with regard to spanking imagery:

What will they think of next? Virtual reality?

‘They’ have already thought of that. The popular web based game/environment ‘Second Life’ has its locations where those so minded can indulge in a bit of virtual spanking or other BDSM related activities.

You can even buy (with real money in our real world) software which in the ‘Second Life’ game will enable you to possess, modify and use canes, floggers etc. and (though not really relevant to this estimable Forum) a comprehensive range of restraints. As far as I can understand it these items can be used by you on other people in ‘Second Life’, or, if that’s what floats your boat, apparently others can can use them on you.

There are a number of demonstration videos on YouTube, though sadly none directly in the sphere of this estimable Forum. The ones I have looked at are unrestricted and IMHO quite innocuous, but not appropriate for a direct post here. If you are interested Google ‘YouTube xcite! tokon tutorial’ EXACTLY as written, including the apparent spelling mistake but excluding the quotes, to answer American Way’s query about virtual reality. Do people really spend their time AND money on this?

Re. the ‘casey ferrand corporal punishment’ photograph:

I don’t claim to be a graphics expert, but I certainly know a little bit more than average, and that photograph is probably a ‘cut and paste’ job. Easily done, take the figures from a photograph taken wherever – nice sharp outlines, no tricky bits like individual fingers sticking out (though see next paragraph) or loose strands of hair on the girl. Chop them out and layer them into a stock picture of something that looks like a school corridor, indeed could even be a school corridor. No problem if you know what’s what in a good graphics package and how to use it.

Blow the picture way up. Take a close look at the interface between the guy’s right (as viewed) waist band/buttock area and the background. Also consider the area round the outline of his head, his feet and lower legs, and the edges of the inverted vee formed by both their legs. Ask yourself what that funny coloured bit between the thumb and fingers of his hand resting on the girl’s back is? Can his fingers really be as long as that, or was that bit bodged during the chop out operation and carelessly repaired after the paste?

Most of all though I am suspicious that despite the fact that there are lots of lights in the corridor behind the figures, and the figures themselves are extremely well lit, they don’t seem to be casting any shadows. Shadows are the tricky bit to put in when you are cutting and pasting graphics, ten times more trouble than all the other operations put together, so the easy option is not to bother, which I think is what has happened here.

I think it’s a fake. I know we have other people on this estimable Forum who know their way round graphics packages. I’d be interested in their comments.

Re. the nospankingzone.org link you give above:

I think whoever is responsible for that website should be given at least a 5 swat paddling, preferably by one of those ‘Coach or Principal Spankhard’ characters beloved of my esteemed fellow contributor Bob T, for:
1 Publishing a block of text like that initial ‘paragraph’ (for want of a better word) without any division into logical sections!
And:
2 Doing it with the align attribute of the td set to center (that’s how it’s spelt in HTML ) so that the already dreadful appearance of such a huge block of text is made even worse by every line being centred!
Note for Jenny: You will I hope be pleased to hear that I have just amended ‘his td’ to ‘the td’ above, since to assume that the author of such an atrocious bit of web publishing is male would clearly be sexist!
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Chirob
1,045
Apr 15, 2010#8
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Very funny A_L. They were not beloved by me.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Apr 15, 2010#9
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Sorry Bob T. It wasn’t meant to be offensive, and though I am a newbie by comparison with your extensive service I hope you’ve seen enough of my posts to know that!
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hcsj44
1,211
Apr 15, 2010#10
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Most of all though I am suspicious that despite the fact that there are lots of lights in the corridor behind the figures, and the figures themselves are extremely well lit, they don’t seem to be casting any shadows. Shadows are the tricky bit to put in when you are cutting and pasting graphics, ten times more trouble than all the other operations put together, so the easy option is not to bother, which I think is what has happened here.

I think it’s a fake. I know we have other people on this estimable Forum who know their way round graphics packages. I’d be interested in their comments.

This kind of thing isn’t my cup of tea, but I was intrigued by your analysis A_L, so I couldn’t resist taking a look. I couldn’t agree more, the people don’t belong to the background. It isn’t so much the shadows, but the lack of a reflection in the glossy floor surface. The chap also appears to be practising levitation. The perspective just doesn’t quite work.
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Willy
Apr 15, 2010#11
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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American Way, you seem to be out of touch of reality or recent history. There is plenty of evidence on Corpun and other serious sites which confirm that male principals in American schools regularly spanked or paddled girls, with authentic pictures and accounts to prove it.
Even your compatriot Will has said that male teachers could paddle girls as well as boys at his school.
I am not interested in fantasy sites which show endless pictures of hairy adult men pretending to be schoolboys getting caned or paddled by pretty young women posing as teachers, or vice versa by big assed women posing as schoolgirls getting spanked by a male. I am only interested in facts and actual true accounts.
But as I said you do not seem to be well informed about paddlings in American schools, at least during the recent past, which is still going on today in many American schools. Unless the Corpun site is fantasy.
Last edited by larry1951 on 4:27 PM – Apr 15, 2010, edited 1 time in total.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Apr 15, 2010#12
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Most girls are paddled by woman.

I’ll leave it to others to say how well or ill informed I am including Colin Farrell.
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Apr 15, 2010#13
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Male without witness paddling female extremely infrequent. Male with male witness very infrequent.
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StevefromSE5
Apr 15, 2010#14
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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WILLY

There are just 13 accounts of schoolgirl paddling in the USA on Corpun. That’s accounts where the girl & paddler’s name are both on view.

It may be that these are the exception to the general rule and that’s why they hit the papers. Or not.

However, of those 13, 10 involved a male principal or coach doing the swatting, whether authorised or not. One was a female swatter, two didn’t specify.

I think it’s nothing like as widespread as you think. But I also think it does go on over there.

Americans are more matter of fact about this sort of thing. I suspect they’d also lynch people like Wilfred Ing, Headmaster of Bacons’ school who was bare-bottom caning girls for years without reproval.

And with that attitude, I suppose the average male Principal is going to be less worried about female teachers witnessing.

I think what is probably the case in the USA is that females getting paddled per se only accounts for a maximum of 25% of all swattings, if that high. Colin Farrell might be able to give us a better idea of that, or indeed Bon T & American Way may have a better grasp of statistics than me-mine is just a gut feeling.

Steve
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Apr 15, 2010#15
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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I would suggests that partially because of national exposure of a Senate hearing the gender issue became center stage for the last 20 years. Also the number of paddlings have been in free fall for the last quarter of a century. This can be attested to by the Office of Civil Rights records. The Center of Effective Discipline (Stop Hitting Site) is good at crunching out numbers. A male striking a girls buttocks is not looked with askance in the areas where corporal punishment is permitted. Southern urban areas are becoming more cosmopolitan so the more unfmiiar paddling is in the school the less likely it remain.

There are fewer male teachers in the younger grades. There is still a gender imbalance (lesser and lesser thank goodness) when it comes to males in favor of female in school wide responsibilities. If I’m a course teacher and I have no interaction with the student body at large I would be less likely to be called upon to paddle students. In a small school that paddles less than a few score students it is not an unreasonable expectation that a male principal would be the one called upon to do it. That may well have been the case with Nancy of Booneville. While freshly paddled she was seen making a bow presumably to at least one witness that would in all likelihood be a female.

There are many credible narratives that indicate a preponderance of coaches (mostly with of course more likely school wide interaction) as well as vice principals but that in no way negates the fact that many girls are still paddled by males. Liability concerns make it a no brainer not to have a witness and since student handbooks are based on county wide codes often derived by the states a witness is a given and it would make sense that the witness would be a woman. It would be shocking if a male witness emerged from the office especially at the moment that Nancy rubbed her bottom unless of course we are talking fantasy.

I’m the man of the reasonable surmise. Things are legally permissible like a student paddled four years prior paddling a student four years later as a rookie teacher. A 21 year old guy paddling a senior girl could happen of course a newly ordained can become a cardinal and become Benedict XVII.

The wild card both figuratively and literally are private schools. Steve. Thank you for your question. I know something about school paddling from the states and I deduct and/or intuit from anecdotal accounts that are not verifiable and some may not even find worth reading (their choice). Theory is not Corpun’s domain. Private schools have the four-fold barrier: secrecy-complacency-sovereignty-bureaucracy that make penetration an insurmountable obstacle. Laws can change that but they often apply to public schools and not tuition paying private schools. Those laws are more likely to be changed on the state level (enforceable by state agencies) than on a county level. Previously I posted a detailed graphic on FL indicating a sharp decrease in paddling by a combination of county wide bans (newly placed Ocala) as well as decrease in numbers of other counties.

anecdotal accounts many are dated from years ago and they need to appropriate pictures from adult content sites and before you credit their zeal for the decrease carefully read the reasons for the switcheroo on CP policy and you’ll find it to be liability toward the end of the article. That’s not freedom and choice but fear and coercion. Are they winning minds and hearts? They fear losing in the the local forum that they scorn. An open and respectful discussion involving all parties is the American Way.
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Another_Lurker
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Apr 17, 2010#16
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi hcj. I’m very sorry, I contrived somehow to overlook your April 15 post. I’m pleased that you agree with me about the picture. Sadly I don’t think American Way, who raised the question about this picture, has commented.

You say that this kind of thing isn’t your cup of tea. Interestingly though one of the points you raise is one I avoided mentioning because I thought it might be too technical for non-experts. There is indeed something strange about the perspective and, as you put it, it ‘just doesn’t quite work’. That’s because the camera used to photograph the corridor and the camera used to photograph the figures were at different heights from the floor. Whoever faked the picture could have adjusted for that by tweaking the layer containing the figures, but they didn’t.
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AlanTuringCodebreaker
1,275
Apr 17, 2010#17
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Yes, I’d agree that it’s a fake. Look at the diagonal patch of light on the floor. It seems to be coming from behind the man — but his trousers don’t seem to interrupt it at all! And if, somehow, it were coming from behind the camera, you’d expect to see some hint of it on the man’s trousers.

Ah, this brings back memories of all those “through the keyhole” pictures that were posted in this Forum a couple of years ago …
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hcsj44
1,211
Apr 17, 2010#18
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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I don’t wish to sound pedantic A_L, but there is no way that processing after the picture is captured can change the perspective – agreed you can limit the apparent errors, but if a background feature is hidden by a foreground object, no amount of manipulation will allow you to see it. An interesting subject, but probably not one for this forum. Whatever the physics, I think we agree that the photograph is faked.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Apr 17, 2010#19
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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It is a fake. Thus spake Alan Turing. That being said a few salient, at least I hope, are in order. There is no way that Southern Education and No Spanking Zone could rouse support for their cause other than playing the gender card and having said that, there is no way without appropriating X-Rated material.

Why are they disingenuious? Because they can’t advance their goals on a fair playing field, the field being the community standard of the south that they either don’t understand and/or they enjoy ridiculing. Those who say the ends justify the means in the crusade need to play by the rules and a level playing field when trying to make a point.
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Another_Lurker
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Apr 17, 2010#20
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi hcj. You say:

I don’t wish to sound pedantic A_L, but there is no way that processing after the picture is captured can change the perspective

Wanna bet? Take a look at the ‘Perspective’ control in Photoshop ‘Transform’.

But possibly I am misunderstanding what you mean, as you then say:

if a background feature is hidden by a foreground object, no amount of manipulation will allow you to see it.

I agree, but why would you want to? Rendering objects which should be hidden visible would certainly give the game away!

Doubtless we could debate endlessly on the subject, but as you say, perhaps not appropriate to this estimable Forum. As Alan Turing agrees with us and American Way does not demur I think we can certainly say the picture is a fake.
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Jun 08, 2010#21
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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I know some are aware of these incidences through Colin Farrel’s Corpun but here are some details.

Since paddling involves a private matter involving a minor a video therefore I shared before a reenactment accessible without adult content consent used in this news video. The poor mother expects light licks for her sixteen year old. Their son claimed the paddling was so severe that it hurt him to sit or use the restroom for days. Give me a break. 7.5% of the student body in MS and she has no clue what a paddling involves? Maybe hitting her where it hurts for filing a nuisance suit would keep our courts free of frivolous lawsuits. The childs first and middle name was William Cody as in Buffalo Bill.

Suit Story

Suit Video

Suit Resolution
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c. farrell
Jun 08, 2010#22
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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“I think what is probably the case in the USA is that females getting paddled per se only accounts for a maximum of 25% of all swattings, if that high. Colin Farrell might be able to give us a better idea of that, or indeed Bon T & American Way may have a better grasp of statistics than me-mine is just a gut feeling.” (StevefromSE5)

Your gut feeling is about right. Anyone can look up the federal statistics on this. They always give the percentage breakdown as 75% to 85% boys.

By the way, many of the questions people keep asking on this forum about US school paddling are answered at
http://www.corpun.com/counuss.htm
if only people would read it.
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Another_Lurker
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Sep 14, 2013#23
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Readers and contributors who were around at the time may recall discussion of this picture earlier in the thread, in April 2010:

I said at the time that the picture was a fake, and I am very happy to say that my very greatly esteemed fellow contributors hcj, Alan Turing and American Way all agreed with me.

At the time the picture featured on several anti-spanking sites. Sadly these sites frequently rely on fake paddling pictures as otherwise they have difficulty in justifying the ludicrous claims they make regarding paddle dimensions and paddling practices. This particular picture has now been removed from most of them (I wonder if this has anything to do with the publicity given to it here) but it still features on the pathetic Nospank site, albeit in mono format.

I don’t claim that a picture is a fake unless I am pretty sure of my case, but as evidence often rests on fairly technical graphics processing considerations it can be difficult to prove the matter beyond reasonable doubt. Happily in this case that is no longer an issue. Firmhand Spanking are producers of adult spanking fetish material. The picture from which the figures in the above fake ‘hallway paddling’ picture were cut and pasted is Firmhand Spanking’s © 2008 material and is clearly identified as such here.</div>
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Sep 14, 2013#24
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Even a cursory glance of the contours of the two young women’s bottoms shows two different models. Samantha Woodley is the veteran shown by the anti-CP zealots for years and referenced in our estimable Forum including one purported to be a Texan paddling with marks on her bottom. One of the more recent vintage models is Kailee Robinson, Canada’s Way. A_L. The American Samantha Woodley is the self-proclaimed, just Google, “Queen of Spanking”. She may rightly not take kindly to your oversight A_L. It’s not the American Way. Beware she tops.

Tweets by KaileeSpanking
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Another_Lurker
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Sep 14, 2013#25
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi American Way,

You are my very greatly esteemed fellow contributor and Honorary Life Member of this estimable Forum so I shall refrain from suggesting that a visit by you to your friendly neighbourhood Optician might be a little overdue!

Here are the girls from the two images:

You should note the following points:
The Firmhand Spankiny © 2008 image is much better quality than the ‘fake’ image, and in enlarging the latter here quality is inevitably lost.

</li>
The jeans, the rest of the girls’ clothing and the position, hands, arms, legs etc. are identical in the two photograps.

</li>
I don’t know how much image faking via cutting and pasting you’ve done. If you’ve done any at all you’ll know that even with an image with fairly well defined edges like this one some tidying of the pasted image is inevitable if the deception isn’t to be too obvious. This results in two things:<ol>[*]Some loss of pixels around the edges of the image, leading to a very slightly slimmer looking pasted copy.

</li>[*]Some blurring and smoothing of the edges of the pasted image.</li>[/list]Both these effects are clearly visible here.

Sorry, but it’s the same girl in both pictures, and indeed the same man, the same paddle etc. You can’t possibly believe that to fake the picture they went to the trouble of obtaining absolutely identical clothing for a girl of identical shape and size and copied the hand and body positions exactly, even down to the position of the fingers! Tell me you don’t, please!! </div>
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holyfamilypenguin
4,559
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Sep 14, 2013#26
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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I stand corrected to a point. The girl shown in the anti-CP propaganda shows a bruised bottom of Samantha whose buttocks I mentioned are a magnitude of order more attractive ocularly. A_L don’t underestimate my background. I have fewer friends here being a relative newcomer from afar; nonetheless hear me out.

A_L if you disagree with my professional evaluation of their relative merits you need an opthalmologist and not just an optician. Samantha joined the Alpine bevy of models before Kailee. There is no question that Samantha is the queen and Kailee is just a princess. Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but A_L all your photo toys pale in significance when it comes to my eye.

The second year of college art involved girls posing in the nude with the first year to weed out the prurient. Vases are not as challenging. The classroom was in the basement and the windows were covered in black. One of the girls came around to look at the canvasses away from the platform. She never returned.

In a recent trip to the Big Apple I saw “The Artist and the Model”. I can vouchsafe for its professional use of nudiety. The tension the artist felt was reminiscent in the the Proustian sense of my experience. There is more to me than meets the eye.

CLICK

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Sep 14, 2013#27
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
A-L I take back that thing about “photo toys” but ask yourself why it would elicit such a feeling between such good cyber friends. I have already asked that question of myself. I’m going to need those “photo toys” so that may be the reason I backed off.

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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Sep 15, 2013#28
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi American Way,

As occasionally happens in our discussions I wonder if what I think we are arguing about is identical to what you think we are arguing about!

I am merely saying that the human figures in the well known (and fake) ‘hallway paddling’ picture I reproduce in my September 14 2013, 2:16 AM contribution above were cut and pasted directly from the Firmhand Spanking © 2008 picture I link at the end of that same contribution.

It follows from the above assertion that the young lady in the two pictures is one and the same, albeit, as explained above, a little slimmed down in the fake picture by the mechanics of the cut and paste operation. I have no idea who the young lady having her bottom paddled in the two pictures is, but I am quite happy to accept the claim in the Firmhand Spanking copyright notice that the picture is from the Kailee Robinson collection and thus, by implication, that the young lady is Ms Kailee Robinson.

You seem to be accusing me of judging the relative merits of Ms Robinson’s bottom as compared to those of the bottom belonging to a Ms Samantha Woodley and reaching the wrong conclusion thereon. I am most emphatically not doing this! To pronounce publicly on the relative merits of bottoms, especially bottoms belonging to young ladies, would not be the act of a gentleman. And besides, as a male you don’t reach my advanced age without learning that such rash acts might lead to a whole host of difficulties and dangers which are best avoided by the prudent!

Completely out of the blue you say above:

I have absolutely no idea how the issue of nude modelling got into the discussion. However it may be of interest to our vast readership to know that four years or so ago I was approached to see if I would model nude for an art circle whose membership was entirely female. To this day I do not know if the request arose because the couple of members with whom I was acquainted thought my rather, errm, lived in and bashed about a bit body might pose an interesting artistic challenge, or if they were so desperate for subjects that they were asking anybody and everybody. As they were situated some way from home feedback from other likely targets to clarify this issue was not available to me.

Naturally I gave the matter very careful consideration. It is not every day that one finds oneself being accredited as someone worthy to be the focus of artistic efforts. Not quite the same thing as being asked to sit for a commemorative portrait by a grateful nation I know, but nonetheless definitely a foot on the ladder! However it transpired that the weekday afternoon the ladies assembled to pursue their artistic endeavours clashed with a pre-existing regular commitment, so alas nude portraits of Another_Lurker are not changing hands for hugely inflated sums in the more select art salons nationwide. </div>
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Sep 15, 2013#29
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Unlike EAL, I have never been asked to model for an art class and feel I have missed out / been discriminated against. (If I had been asked I would have refused.)

Imaging EAL’s performance:

Which is the “original”?

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Jeff Charles
Jan 03, 2014#30
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi,

Not sure what this forum is about so I don’t want to get too deep or step on any fetishists toes or whatever. It popped for me when I googled nopaddle so sorry for the late response — but for any future viewers I would like to clarify a few points.

Someone posted that my site had gone dead or something and therefor I must have lost interest, or there were not enough stories about girls getting paddled, or else I did not care about male paddling, etc.

Of course I do have a public e-mail, Jeff1844@aol.com, posted on the above mentioned nopaddle site that still works, and is often posted elsewhere as well — so all anyone has to do if they wonder is ask rather than imagine my ideas and tboughts.

A few clarifications — for various reasons I lost my web guru in 2004 and do wish to create a different site — but instead created a Yahoo nopaddle group that was active for some years and still exists.

I currently due to family issues do not have as much time available to this issue as I had maintained for six or more years at a big sacrifice in all other areas of life — no big surprise — but the issue has never died off for me.

The nopaddle website — from its very front page — says one of the main focuses is the sexual harassment aspect of school paddling. Older students are necessarily more aware and also more likely victimized — and most often with the dynamic of a male paddler. I have, for the record, had several people give long and painful interviews about homosexual harassment in paddling — but none were able to give a final release when the interviews were over. Due to the mounting instinct and sexual dynamics a female paddling and older male is much less common than a man paddlng a women and is a somewhat different mounting instinct dynamic — although all are harmful,
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Jan 03, 2014#31
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…

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Guest
Jan 03, 2014#32
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jeff Charles, and welcome too to the forum.

You’ll find its a mix of people here , certainly NOT all fetishists, although there are some no doubt. I’m one of those interested in US Education , both professionally as an educationalist, and also as that rather rare individual who during the 70’s in his teenage years, through an unusual confluence of events happened to be both caned in UK school system, and paddled by a real US High School Principal (from Texas no less). However, I wasn’t irreparably harmed by the experience, as I’m still friends with her and her family, indeed we always meet a couple of times a year when I visit her home State

But I’m the first to admit that it is no longer the 1970’s and our understanding of education, child psychology, and learning methods has progressed by leaps and bounds. Nevertheless , I share your concern over the use today of the paddle. Now I’ve visited a number of schools in the Southern states as a function of my University role,and I’d say straight away that the vast majority of teachers are good people who try their best in often far from ideal circumstances. But the danger with any form of corporal punishment is that it can be a recruiting sergeant for exactly the sort of people we want nowhere near our children. Unfortunately weeding such people out isn’t easy…..indeed in the English context some of the more famous exponents with ‘other agendas’ are discussed on the pages of this forum.

Part of the problem in the UK and US is that teachers were trusted – not as much perhaps today- and no one questioned their actions. Schools where cp was abused may not in a given area be, or have been , great in number , but even one can do untold damage. It seems to me that the strongholds of paddling in the States are indeed those small town communities, often agricultural in flavour, and with a traditional church going majority of ‘upright citizens’ who cannot conceive of teachers doing wrong. In many cases ( for example the MS delta) they live in an underfunded and harsh physical environment which favors the reproduction of physical punishment in the home as well as the school Yet in cases like the Springtown TX paddling , even when it is prima facie a breach of the discipline code , in that case for a man to paddle a girl, the school board would rather retrospectively change the regulation than sanction the administrator who disregarded protocol.Then we have instances like the ‘Alabama prom paddlings’ where you suspect the principal must have won the job in a christmas cracker or on the lotto, again the Memphis Academy of Health Sciences, where parents have Hobson’s choice, to either go to sink school or a barely adequately performing one , where, because of its independence from State regulation, public paddling and strapping is the order of the day.

As to the anti campaigns, I don’t think the cause is helped by those who rant without making an argument . We’ve had them represented here by the ‘Raving Rev’ ( Wade Ditty) who has his heart in the right place , but will not win over the middle ground with bombast,or by smearing genuine teachers with vitriol. Much better to calmly demonstrate the issue. You don’t win political or social campaigns without alliances.To simply, as he does , spill his vitriol and then go away without ever responding to questions and retorts , doesn’t convince anyone . Incidentally btw your cartoons are I think , on the other hand , an amusing and interesting way of getting your point across.

What is without doubt is that there are serious issues to address, and too few prepared to address them in a methodical manner.
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HH2012
836
Jan 03, 2014#33
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jeff Charles, may I also welcome you to our happy circle.

Prof.n gave a good synopsis of this forum above. In addition, you’ll find there are several who research and post items of historical significance (and not just SCP but the use of CP in general). For those capable of it, there are sometimes interesting discussions on the pros and cons of certain aspects surrounding CP, including where it is used today. As I’m sure you’re aware, objective discussion of emotionally-charged issues like this one can be a difficult task for many. Be advised that we are fortunate to also have in our midst several excellent contributors who are educators employing CP at school today. While I am personally opposed to using CP in schools, I nonetheless find their insight and commentary most valuable, and trust you’ll be able to discourse in the same light. FYI – I am not a complete “anti” as I support parental CP as defined within the limitations my Court’s guidelines issued in 2004, and while rarely resorted to, find it both effective and salutary in my own family. Just felt I better put my cards on the table as I know exactly where you’re coming from

What you point out vis-a-vis sexual aspect is interesting, and I agree with prof.n that there can potentially be this element within the issue (and frankly one reason I oppose CP used in schools) although I don’t think it’s the rampant issue as it appears you do.

I’m in Canada and we banned all School CP “SCP” country wide back in 2004. Something I totally agree with becasue I think that form of discipline should not be inflicted on a minor as an instrument of government operation.

I have to say, growing up in the 60’s and 70’s, none of the CP either I received or witnessed, whether domestic or school, ever had any tinge of sexual component to it, nor had anyone one of my peers ever alluded to that side of it. Since you brought up the subject, I wonder if there’s a legal difference betweeen my country and the USA that may account for this?

It appears the “elephant in the American school room” are these “shield laws” which seem to protect educators from prosecution in even the most egregious examples (as some contributors highlight in this forum from time to time). I wonder if that’s the real culprit which encourages a small element of persons in control to go errant? (“Absolute powers corrupts absolutely”) In Canada, the powers to inflict CP at school was a direct extension of transferred parental powers (in loco parentis), and therefore any educator, who chastised or otherwise inappropriately handled a child in a manner that could have resulted in criminal prosecution if a parent had done so, was not shielded and equally liable to the same consequences. In fact we have documented cases of succesful prosecutions of educators who utterly overstepped the line. I now wonder if this had some material deterrent effect on these types of issues?

I think the other element is the appropriateness of age. Here, parentally only limited CP is allowed, and only to the age of 12. I think the risk of these sexual facets grows exponentially where CP is inflicted on young adults / teens. Again, in my boards at the time, CP was viewed as an appropriate sacntion only for elemetary children, and thus not inflicted on teens. I’m starting to think this mitigated that type of thing by not allowing the conditions to exist for it in the first place. Thirdly, typical MO was to strap the hands which again mitigated the potential risk of sexual interference of the buttocks or CP delivered for that ulterior reason. We also required witnesses to ensure nothing untoward was happening and certailny never videotaping or recording, whether official or otherwise.

I guess my point is, if you’re avidly working for the country-wide abolition of SCP, the “achilles heel” you may wish to find is a way to succussfully attack these shield laws. Just my thoughs… Anyway, Welcome! and hope you will contribute more!
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Jan 09, 2014#34
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jeff Charles

I bid you a very belated welcome to the forum. I’ve been meaning to reply for the last few days but other things kept getting in the way I hope you’re still here.

When I first came to this forum I was broadly in favour of SCP. I still am but considerably less so than before. My main objection to it is that it was commonly abused.

Some UK schools and local education authorities (LEAs) totally exempted all girls from SCP, thereby admitting they didn’t need to use it. Nevertheless, despite that, they continued to beat boys. Two children, having identical antecedence, could commit identical offences yet only one would be corporeally punished. Those two children could be identical in all respects other than a single word (male or female) in their respective entries in the register of births.

If the school honestly thought it needed to use CP to maintain discipline, it must have wanted approximately half its students left undisciplined. If, however, it didn’t believe CP was necessary, its use with boys was nothing more than abuse.

You say:

I disagree with the first part of your final sentence although a makes very good “Shock! Horror!” headline to grab the public’s attention.

In the UK, some schools and LEAs that allowed CP for girls prohibited men from using it with them. Only two (Inner London and Oxfordshire) education authorities prohibited women caning boys. I suspect some male teachers would have been reluctant to cane girls in any case for fear of their motives being suspect or of false allegations being made against them. Those considerations do not apply to female teachers. It is likely, therefore, women caning teenage boys was far more common and open to abuse than men caning teenage girls.

Whether either is necessarily harmful is debatable. I received CP from teachers of both sexes when I was at school and I don’t consider myself harmed by it. I accept other might have been harmed, both in cases of receiving CP from a same sex or opposite sex teacher. In my opinion, it’s not the CP per se that causes harm, it’s the attitude of the teachers in administering it. Although I didn’t experience it myself, events reported by others suggest that, in many cases, it was used simply to beat children into submission.

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stoppaddling
29
Jan 12, 2014#35
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi HH and Jenny,

I’m posting this tot he originalmessage — the others I posted at the bottom so I hope they show up somewhere too.

In any case I don’t know how much time I can devote to this forum but it seems to be a good one as these things go so I may try to pop in from time to time.

Both HH and Jenny report either no girls or few girls receiveing CP at some point in the past as being “proof” that it is not sexual. I would disagree in two ways — first there is the sadism aspect that is inherent in official child butt beating of any gender, second boys are very feminized when compared to men and the mounting instinct is still in play even for heterosexual paddlers — and thirdly there are of course homosexuals in schools as well. Nothing wrong with that in itself, but there is no guarentee of same gender being free of sexual interest and exploitation.

Further the reason in my own background and many others not showing that sort of female sexualized victimization is females were rarely or never paddled, certainly not into older ages, and certainly not by men. That in itself shows an awareness in that time of the sexualized nature of men paddling teen girls that was recognized widely, though not universally, that is today ritually ignored. As ignorant and naieve as people were then, they were not wrong on that count, and rather than moving away from all paddling of all genders as we learned more about the sexual and sadistic aspects of paddling as well as other harms, the areas where paddling was strongly encouraged moved to ignore even the most blantant of cases and to idemnify paddlers of all harms physical, sexual, and psychological.

And yes HH — if there were no paddler immunity laws I think it would be on the way out. It would still be very hard to sue and win, and the jury would be the locals who would be supposedly pro-paddling, so a win would be almost impossible even without these laws. The fact that the paddlers felt even then that they needed to completely remove the oversight of any court to cases of harm shows the widespread and serious nature of the harm they do inflict, at least recklessly, for which they are deathly afraid that juries of their own peers would unanimosuly and often find them guilty if allowed to hear the cases.

Jeff Charles
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Jan 12, 2014#36
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jenny,

You mentioned in at least some UK schools they would use CP on boys but not on girls for the same offence, tacitly admitting they did not need CP and also allowing an injustice of different students punished differently for the identical offence.

US paddling schools continue this today in at least one common and different way — they often will defer to a parent’s request to either paddle or not — so two students at a tax-funded school committing the same offence, perhaps at the same time, are punished by the government employee differently, based entirely on the whim of their parents.

Now all spankers will admit at least some spanking “crosses the line” — whatever the “line” is for each person. In a large school in a high-rate spanking segment of the population such as any high-rate paddling US state — guess which punishment the government will impose on those students who are abused with “spanking” that “crosses the line” at home?

And while we are on that different subject — not to mention gender and clothing differences where females rears are a more sexual target area generally, where females where thinner clothes typically and often dresses and more revealing — an offence they are often paddled for by the way — but the force of the hits is unscientific and immeasurable as well. Often paddlers will deliberately paddle some students harder than others based on social class, whether a student is in sports, is favored somehow, if the paddler is aroused by paddling a pretty girl (or boy), thinks boys should be hit harder, thinks girls can “take it better” as they “have more padding,” and many other excuses that people often exhibit, and sometimes even verbalize.

The sexual aspects cannot be removed from paddling, and likewise, the unscientific, immeasurable, amount of force, cannot be controlled or made safe. These are inherent problems with paddling even if a paddler has the best of intentions — and suffice it to say when paddling is involved, many do not.

Peace,

Jeff
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Jan 12, 2014#37
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Prof,

The cross section of people in the US — the same population school staff is drawn from, includes about one in 25 in the US is a sociopath, and maybe one in 20 a sadist. About 11% of college age men fantasize about spanking, and about 3% of women do (Note the number who could be sexually aroused doing a deed is much higher than the number who fantasize about it — not everyone fantasizes about oral sex but nearly everyone might be stimulated by it if they found themselves doing it). More than 30% of men become sexually aroused watching scenes of violence against women — not even counting the sexual aspect of spanking, and about 40% of men have engaged in spanking for sexual arousal.

We can wonder whether psychopaths and sadists and those who fantasize about spanking are more or less likely to pursue careers where they can carry it out.

All of these are hidden and there is no way to know who harbors these problems by looking at them.

Further, however, even if we had a magic way to weed all of these people out from spanking jobs in schools, we know from the human psychology experiments from 1969-70 or so that it is almost universal human nature to develop sadism on the job when someone has a job that involves deliberately inflicting pain on another human being. We also know this throughout history of the Inquisition, Slavery, Nazis, and etc, let alone the prison guard and electric shock experiments at Stanford and such. We all harbor the ability to become sadists when once we get the green light to inflict pain upon others.

I think the psychological damange to the paddlers themselves is a good enough reason to end paddling even if it had no negative risks for the child victims. The US is in mostly ignorance and denial of much of this, however, so the beat goes on.

Jeff
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Jan 12, 2014#38
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Lurker,

I gave my “guesstimates” and reasons for them in Southern Education which you cited — which says it all.

I will add that I left some knowledge out at the time to protect people’s privacy, and also in the decade since more has come to light. There are also reasons why we may never see any video clips of school paddling no matter who finds them — which I will not have the time to elaborate on here, but I will provide an outline for the reasons. If I rework the website suffice it to say there will be a lot more on that subject.

What first alerted me to this — and I was not thinking of it at all when I first started interviewing people, but would ask a lot of questions to find out exactly what did happen in the paddling to get beyond the euphemisms of “CP” and such — is one 18-yo female paddle victim reported the witness at the back of the room instructing her to move a few inches this way, then an inch that way, one more, etc. There was no obstruction to the paddle swing that would justify this. Being somewhat of an amateur photographer I recognized that the only explanation that would make any sense is if they were lining her up for a telephoto close up of her butt or something. There are also many others who bend over fixed chairs or who stand with feet prints on the floor or something that would automatically take care of that problem without raising suspicions.

Later USA today had an article in 2003 or so — pre-Katrina for sure — about spy cameras in paddling Biloxi, Mississippi schools. It stated there were over 500 high resolution spy cameras with Internet coded access in those schools. Each camera could be coded for different people. When asked who could log in and view the cameras or control them, the answer was simply, “not the parents.” I also talked privately with someone who was against paddling and was dating a man who installed spy cameras in one of the highest rate paddling schools in TX — got the prize for paddling the most teen girls according to someone’s research — they also were loaded with a similar system — and she was angry because she said many of the cameras were at floor level looking up, which she thought could only be used for upskirt shots.

But in many of these schools with hundreds of Internet private coded access cameras and paddlings occurring in many rooms, the gym, hallways, etc., it is a certainty that many paddling have been recorded on these devices, even if accidentally, even if no-one had any interest in seeing such video clips. I think everyone on this forum would have to agree, however, that there is a fairly wide interest in school paddling.

Beyond the known school spy cams, however, are the cheap and easy cameras any paddler can set up, or any janitor.

The question is, since we can infer there must be many hundreds or thousands of paddlings at least accidentally recorded on these systems, why, you ask, can’t we find them on the Internet?

The answer is not hard to figure out. If you are one of the good old boys or girls who has the access to the cameras that show the paddling, it would break no state or federal law, so the police will never care or report it. The students and anti-paddle folks like me will never be given access. You are not likely to report it or share that you collect and watch these paddlings if you are on the list, and in fact may have to sign a legal paper to keep confidential anything you do see there, and if somehow someone did try to get a video clip out with students being paddled, they would likely be sued and perhaps even arrested in high rate paddling states for libel to the school, theft of school owned documents, or violating children’s privacy rights. It is very possible you would be prosecuted and Yahoo or no other site would even carry the clips even if you were some sort of whistle blower due to the very widespread support for paddling in these states coupled with very harsh defamation and libel laws and such, and pretty much any web carrier’s refusal to post items illegally obtained, and especially with children in possibly child porno context, which ironically for the pro-paddling folks, school paddling certainly could be considered to be.

The persecution of even people who complain about paddling or sue over injuries is widespread and real and is the end result of many of the court cases you have read about — the people who complained are one-way or the other run out of town. For example the Alabama Education Association (if I remember the title correct — represents the principals – not teachers) announced a policy to aggressively counter sue anyone who tries to sue one of the schools, I believe over paddling specifically.

So, I could go on about the TN school that kids found school spy cameras were teens were dressing, and if the kids did not find the cameras in a an area they had access to it never would have even been reported, or many similar cases, and how ultimately these spy cams did not break the law. The only question is, would the people with access to the cameras be interested in watching paddling, keeping it, being aroused by it, and to what percentage? Someday it may come out when if the NSA unleashes all data they have collected in our time or something, but other than that I don’t expect to hear of it, and if we do hear of it, it would be considered a “rare fluke” and no-one would be charged and no law or policy would change anyway.

Consider the Ohio paddling cop who arrested 16-year old boys for minor traffic violations and trumped up the charges to be very serious and blackmailed them to come in once a week to let him spank them. The FBI finally raided his house after 20 years of this activity and they found a DVD by his bed titled “SWAT TRAIN.” It featured spy camera video of under aged boys being spanked by him, sometimes clothed, sometimes on underwear, sometimes bare butt. The boys underwent traumatic testimony, but the Cleveland Plain Dealer seemed only concerned in its op ed that “the poor guy might lose his pensions” or something. In the end he was only charged with one count of failing to issue one of the tickets. In a similar case in the northeast a 19-year old woman’s step dad had spy cameras in her bedroom and taped her naked for a year. He only kept the naked footage. She finally found the bulky recorders in a locked room in the basement. The courts ultimately ruled that it broke now laws, and they even gave the video back to the pervert step dad.

Kids being paddled in schools have nonexistent protection with every paddling state either tacitly or explicitly stating as Texas does that students can be videotaped without theirs or their parents knowledge or permission — with that statement often given in the context of discipline. Alabama goes a step further an nullifies all child protection laws, even those against the production of child pornography, whenever paddling is involved.

I could say more and may at a later time — but we are not in Kansas anymore Dorothy when it comes to a lack of privacy where students are known to be paddled, even if no other people or obvious cameras can be seen by the child victims or their parents.

Jeff Charles
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Jan 12, 2014#39
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
http://biloxischools.schoolwires.net/cm … 1-2010.pdf

Page 19-: The focus on the Biloxi schools gained worldwide attention following an article in USA Today by Greg Toppo, posted on August 3, 2003. It was titled “Who’s watching the class?”

When students in Biloxi, Miss., show up this morning for the first day of the new school
year, a virtual army of digital cameras will be recording every minute of every lesson in
every classroom.

Hundreds of Internet-wired video cameras will keep rolling all year long, in the hope that
they’ll deter crime and general misbehavior among the district’s 6,300 students and
teachers.

“It helps honest people be more honest,” says Superintendent Larry Drawdy, who, along
with principals and security personnel, can use a password to view classrooms from any
computer. In an emergency, police also can tune in.

So far, Biloxi is the only school district in the nation to install Webcams in every
classroom nearly 500 so far. But school districts in cities nationwide and in England
are experimenting with classroom Webcams for security reasons, installing the affordable
cameras in hallways and selected classrooms and planning devices for future schools.
One security firm says it’s negotiating with an undisclosed urban district to install 15,000 cameras so security personnel can keep an eye on classes, hallways and parking lots.

Almost anywhere they go these days, Americans are on camera: at work, on the road, at
public events. Why should schools be different?

Plus a lot more.
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Jan 12, 2014#40
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
http://biloxischools.schoolwires.net/cm … 1-2010.pdf

Page 19-: The focus on the Biloxi schools gained worldwide attention following an article in USA Today by Greg Toppo, posted on August 3, 2003. It was titled “Who’s watching the class?”

When students in Biloxi, Miss., show up this morning for the first day of the new school
year, a virtual army of digital cameras will be recording every minute of every lesson in
every classroom.

Hundreds of Internet-wired video cameras will keep rolling all year long, in the hope that
they’ll deter crime and general misbehavior among the district’s 6,300 students and
teachers.

Almost anywhere they go these days, Americans are on camera: at work, on the road, at
public events. Why should schools be different?

Plus a lot more.
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Jan 12, 2014#41
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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http://biloxischools.schoolwires.net/cm … 1-2010.pdf

Page 19-: The focus on the Biloxi schools gained worldwide attention following an article in USA Today by Greg Toppo, posted on August 3, 2003. It was titled “Who’s watching the class?”

When students in Biloxi, Miss., show up this morning for the first day of the new school
year, a virtual army of digital cameras will be recording every minute of every lesson in
every classroom.

Hundreds of Internet-wired video cameras will keep rolling all year long, in the hope that
they’ll deter crime and general misbehavior among the district’s 6,300 students and
teachers.

Almost anywhere they go these days, Americans are on camera: at work, on the road, at
public events. Why should schools be different?

Plus a lot more.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Jan 12, 2014#42
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
FYI.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/04 … -classroom
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HH2012
836
Jan 12, 2014#43
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hello Jeff Charles, and thank you for your reply!

First, I believe I have been seriously misquoted, where you say “Both HH and Jenny report either no girls or few girls receiving CP at some point in the past as being “proof” that it is not sexual.” No, I never made such a statement.

What I said was “none of the CP either I received or witnessed, whether domestic or school, ever had any tinge of sexual component to it”. But just because I saw no evidence of it, is certainly no “proof” that it didn’t go on somewhere!

So let’s examine this a little further. It is true from CP registers I have analyzed from British and Canadian schools that there was a strong bias towards punishing boys with CP vs girls, as often the ratios in the records are 10:1 (boys:girls) or higher. One might argue that this indicates there was no sexual overtone as most of the CP was meted by men and if such overtones existed, should have manifest in the data by a predominence of girls being punished. I don’t agree with that either because, as you have correctly pointed out, there were/are a lot of people in the LGBT group so one cannot rule in or out if a sexual overtone existed simply by looking at the sex of the person adninistering CP or the offender. The real reason is that in times past, CP was generally viewed as more appropriate for boys and not for girls. This outmoded and sexist thinking was repeatedly observed by the great imbalance in the boys:girls ratios mentioned above.

Based on your many comments, I would like to ask: are you patently opposed to using physical force of any kind as a sanction? or are you particularly opposed to spanking (paddling) of the buttocks because of the various sexual dimensions you raise? The reason I ask you this is because, this is why in my culture we pretty much universally adopted strapping of the hands; exactly to remove all the specific sexual dimensions you raise. So is it SCP of all sorts you oppose, or is it really the specific procedure?

Finally, I agree with your concerns about the segment of society that can be sadistic or use SCP for ulterior motives and personal gratification. That in itself, can be a compelling argument to oppose any type of spanking in school today.
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mommabearof2
Jan 12, 2014#44
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hello Jeff Charles, as other have said welcome to this forum.

Out of almost anybody on this forum my views are probably closest to yours on the issue of schools being able to hit kids so this is gonna be real hard for me to type. I have read parts of your book and find a lot of it be very alarmist, sexist(kind of), condescending, and some what dishonest. Here is a example

“Even in the extremely unlikely event that the school spanking pornographers could ever be caught red-handed, as one network of thousands of child spanking pornographers recently was, they still, very likely, could not be prosecuted or sued in Alabama or in many other teacher protection act states. These states specifically make child pornography production legal when paddling is involved. The only hope for prosecution is on Federal racketeering or child pornography statutes when it involves interstate commerce. Most damningly its not that Alabama politicians never considered the possibility of anyone producing child S/M spanking pornography at school. They were not ignorant of that possibility or too busy to consider it, as we might suppose at first. They did, in fact, take special legislative time with it. Instead of protecting children from being the unwitting subjects of child pornography in school, however, they specifically passed a teacher protection act that specifically nullified child pornography protections whenever school paddling is involved. The police cannot investigate, parents cannot complain, and no one can sue in the rare cases the secrecy surrounding state produced child pornography is blown.”

I am skeptical of this claim for many reasons but will talk about two. First as everybody is probably aware in 2008 the America Civil Liberty Union (ACLU) and Human Right Watch (HRW) did a investigation into school paddling and not once did they ever talk about legal immunity for for educators to make paddling child pornography. These people understand the legal system better then anybody on this forum . The second reason is the media would have picked up this story long ago and exposed it. I understand the media a lot of time sucks but a story like this would bring in a lot of viewers an big bucks.

Despite all my criticism of your book I do agree with a lot of what the points you made, although I feel you exaggerated them a little to much.
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 13, 2014#45
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Mom Bear,

I would like “Southern Education” to be more refined — and if I ever re-do it, it will be. I have the writing capability to make it a lot briefer and succinct and better overall. I could make it more scholarly seeming and less alarmist also.

The problem at the time was after a few years of gathering information it just kept pouring in faster than I could process it from many different facets. it got to be quite overwhelming and my window of time to put that much effort into it was running out. I didn’t want to let all of that effort from so many people never see the light of day, I couldn’t process what I had let alone the volume that just kept coming in, so I just threw it up on the web and continued to take in more for a few years.

As far as the crudeness of some of the cartoons and such — I figured the science against paddling was already in, and was already overwhelmingly damning, yet the paddlers – many of whom were not very educated in science as it relates to paddling issues and many who were fundamentalists as well, so I wanted this site to appeal to the fundamentalist Christian type with lower education levels — of which I was one myself for many decades — who had utter disdain for science. I also wanted it to be hard hitting enough that even a casual person who stumbled on even one or two pages and then left would have a good idea what it was about. I also wanted to be as graphic and explicit and as shocking as close as possible to what real paddling and child abuse is, so I tried not to pull any punches, so long as the web site itself did not become pornographic.

So, its not for everybody, but for many people it said just what they felt, and so for every group of people that tells me how crappy it is, there is some people who think it is the best thing and spoke for them — so it is what it is, as they say today.

Having said that, I would much like to rework and update it and make it a bit more polite than it currently is.

This started out to be a 50-page essay on the sexual harassment aspect of school paddling which I hoped Jordan Riak might put up on the PTAVE site, along with an earlier work that he did put up from 1991, “Sin, Sex, and Spanking School Aged Children.” As I looked back later, I almost think that essay just about said everything that needed to be said. In any case, the sexual harassment essay start led to the seeming narrow focus on title and such, but it just expanded. Ultimately some people I respect suggested I could include other aspects of paddling such as medical harms and such in case this is the only thing some people read on the subject.

There are three things I really wanted to hit that I think were not really done in other sites so much but were very relevant — one is the sexual harassment aspect. The second is the fact that spanking and paddling are not Christian — at the time it was almost universally cited as Christian and I felt this was just a plain false teaching that denigrated Jesus ultimately — and thirdly, I wanted to talk about pornography and its links to spanking, both direct and indirect. The last category I only partially succeeded at. There was once a chapter itself just about porno and paddling — but I did a test read with some like-minded folks and got no comments back — which told me it was a bit much, so it never made it to print. The rest was rounding it out.

I felt at the time the net was very visual so I also had to create visual content — photos and drawings, satire, and also sometimes issues from interviews where the person did not want that part printed, so it made its way into cartoons. Also some photos were needed just to illustrate what paddling was, because people my kid’s age did not know in areas where paddling flew the coop prior to their entering school.

As far as the Alabama law — it was first pointed out to me explicitly by Michelle Curtis in Demopolis Alabama whose son was brutally paddled for some minor infraction and caused her to get into this issue. I remember the numbers 16 and 28 — one is Alabama’s child abuse statute, which includes a list of all types of child abuse that are illegal, and the other is the paddler immunity act, which basically says the entire child abuse statute does not apply whenever school paddling is involved. So, directly, there is no Alabama law against the production of child pornography if school paddling is involved. This is all also available on the Internet. If need be I can try to find it again. Maybe I cited it near the place you quoted. Sick as it is, that is Alabama law.

The slave stuff — mostly in the cartoons and quotes — also was a side-bar I didn’t expect. At first I dismissed the issue — but when William Blake directed me to many historical quotations, some of which are cited there – it blew me away. I see some folks here are also well versed and have other quotes and citations, but I do not think the origin of paddling in slavery is well known either. It cannot be taught in the paddling schools — especially the quotes about how the overseers would rather paddle a slave than eat, and in one citation, would rather paddle female slaves than eat.

Peace,

Jeff
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Jan 13, 2014#46
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi KK — thanks for providing the USA Today link to my reference for those interested.

Jeff Charles
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Jan 13, 2014#47
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
.. so whoever it is that gets private coded access can evaulate the teacher’s paddle swings and which girl’s butts bounce the most I suppose, at least in paddling schools.

Thanks for providing that link. Don’t remember if I had read it before, but I forgot it if I did.

Interesting in the Biloxi paddling schools with 500 individualize coded internet spy cams as of 2003 — the “staff” and “police” are mentioned as having access. That is also a great way to make sure no-one reports the paddle spy cam video — let the cops in on the fun also.

There are many stories of police watching paddlings so again no-one can call them to complain since the officer already watched it, and sometimes even takes part in designating the paddling.

I could go on again where a person described to me a situation in a small town Texas where police were directly involved with a spanking child abuser but I can’t — an unholy allience at all points, along with the paddling immunity laws eliminating the judicial oversite, or even after the fact remedy, from reckless or abusive injury paddling cases.

I think the legislature removing the judiciary of our supposed triad of executive, legislative, and court checks and balances is unconstitutional in itself btw — but in the paddle-loving areas of the US anything goes as long as it supports paddling.

Peace,

Jeff
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Jan 13, 2014#48
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi HH,

Sorry if I did not quote your meaning well. You said, “none of the CP either I received or witnessed, whether domestic or school, ever had any tinge of sexual component to it”.

To that, I can only say, you and most everyone else have been brainwashed with Orwellian doublethink on this matter, even with men paddling boys. Every aspect of paddling is overwhelmingly violent and sexual as well. Every paddling position is essentially a recognized pornographic or anal rape position – with about the only reason otherwise for such a posture would be a medical anal digital exam. The buttocks itself is a sexual area of the body — part of the “underwear area” that is the “bad touch” zone, particularly for non-parents or medical personell. Slightly more subtle until you see it, and then fairly blatant, phallic “large hard paddle that hurts” rhythmic striking the upturned buttocks of the young, submissive “bottom”.

Tap a woman on the *** at work, even if you use a book or something not your hand, see how far you get. It is no less sexual for a teen girl in school, and boys also feel the violation. Where there is a homosexual blatant aspect the boys are even more emasculated and ashamed. The several I were able to interview were unable to allow it to go to print ultimately — and I always give people that option. (Writing books say NEVER let a person read or edit, but I always do)

And, of course, we cannot know what people are thinking, but due to boys being quite feminine also, I think even heterosexual men are commonly aroused paddling boys, especially where that is all that is allowed, and I also think there is an aspect where even paddling a large macho boy could be a testosterone boost. More than I can get into here.

And again, I think a major reason girls were not paddled much was the acknowledged sexual violation of it. One Arab man told me even though women have few rights there, it would be a [sexual] scandal if a school man spanked or paddled a teen girl as they do here, so that is that same kind of mind set, right or wrong.

And yes, I am opposed to hitting anyone for any reason, except for the defense of myself or others. I have black belts in four different arts — not that I’m any good at them. I’m only a danger to myself I think. But, suffice it to say, I spend a lot of time with this hobby, working safely with all ages and genders of people to be respectful and not to hurt anyone. Also parent and grandparent. Kids can be frustrating at times, as can adults, but I do not believe in violence and sexual ritual humiliation for anyone, least of all for the most vulnerable in our society, children.

The only place I think spanking is legit is between aware, consenting adults, and even then there are some risks of escalating sadism in S/M that people should get educated on before even adults begin the spanking game.

I also think most of these fetishes are rooted in our common childhood abuse that we euphemize as spanking and paddling, and that the spanking and paddling fetishes would all but wane out of existence if we ended our child butt hitting rituals. In any case there are always nonviolent alternatives that work as well as spanking, but which do not carry the physical, psychological, or sexual risks of child buttocks hitting.

Peace,

Jeff
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Jan 13, 2014#49
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Sorry KK — I only answered a part of your questions. I said I was opposed to all hitting of people not in the defense of myself or others, but you asked specifically if hand strapping was safe for children in my view.

The answer is, “no.” I commend you and your country (whatever it is) on recognizing the buttocks as a sexual area of the body and deciding not to be violent with children on a sexual part of their anatomy.

I once thought about supporting various “half-fixes” for CPs harms also.

I remember one person asked about soaping the mouth as it had no sexual overtones. I started to answer this person, and as I started to write it struck me the rather overwhelming sexual overtone of that little gem too. A large bar is inserted forcefully into a child’s mouth while the child gags and white foam comes out. What could be a sexual image in that? Duh.

There is no good fix for violence toward children that makes it safe. You often hear people debate on whether CP is effective, or is more so than other means, but seldom whether CP is healthy for children.

Hand strapping is I think an order less sexual than butt hitting, but from what I’ve read hand strapping is more prone to long term physical injuries to the child, as the hand has very little protection or paddling and a lot of small bones. As with butt hitting and all violence, the force is arbitrary and immeasurable. Teachers are also at risk of developing sadism, and the children are at a higher risk for masochism possibly morphing later into sadism as well. That aspect doesn’t change. And finally, the sexual aspect is reduced but is not absent. You are still grabbing a smaller person’s wrist — itself a sexual dominating act, I could go on — but reduced sexuality and heightened physical risk, violent, still prone to inducing sadism in hitters and masochism in children, bottom line.

Also, like all child hitting, unnecessary, as other nonviolent training methods have been scientifically shown to be as effective without the risks — so why foster these harms and risks, unless ignorance, or the continued enjoyment of the hitters as some sort of job perk at the expense of children’s health, is our goal? No-one would spell that out as a goal — but I think it is the only possible motivation today where for professional educators, ignorance can no longer be the excuse.

Peace,

Jeff
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JennyBr
1,776
2
Jan 14, 2014#50
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jeff Charles

You appear to have completely misunderstood me. Like HH, I didn’t detect any signs that a teacher was deriving any form of improper gratification from administering CP. That’s not the same as saying none did and definitely not proof that it never happened. What I have said, elsewhere on this forum, if that it wasn’t something that would concern me – provided the teacher was administering the CP for a legitimate reason. Using CP on a child purely for self-gratification (sexual or otherwise) is wrong; using CP to punish a child for a genuine offence, notwithstanding that the teacher derives sexual gratification form doing so, is another matter entirely.

Contrary to what you’ve inferred, I’ve said more than once (again elsewhere on this forum) that the fact that some schools and individual teachers exempted girls from CP is evidence that it was used for prurient reasons. As I said in my previous post, if a school exempted girls from CP, it could not consider it was necessary for the purpose of maintaining discipline.

A good example of an abuse was reported by Stephen Hutchings in this post. It’s clear that, right from the outset, the teacher intended to slipper three members of the class. The only possible escape route would have been if the all scored exactly the same in the test: an extremely unlikely event. In that case he might just have slippered the whole class anyway – although, perhaps not. Stephen came fourth from last so should have been safe but, as a girl was in the bottom three, he had to take her place.

Using CP for simple academic failure is totally wrong but, that aside, what was the teacher’s motive? It could be that he only got a thrill from slippering boys and had no interest in girls. Another possibility is that he got his thrills from slippering children of either sex but avoided slippering girls in an attempt to cover his tracks.

If a school (or teacher) had a policy of only using CP with girls, would you think there might be some sexual component involved? What reason can there be to think otherwise of a school (or teacher) with a policy of only using CP with boys?

In your reply of January 12 2014, 2:02 AM you say

That system was proposed in the UK after the European Court of Human Rights ruled that using CP on a child against the parents’ wishes breached the parents’ rights. Headteachers objected saying that such a system would be impractical because they could be faced with two children, both having committed the same offence, but only one could be caned. That was exactly what did happen in schools with a policy of exempting girls from CP yet they didn’t seem to think that was a problem. What they really objected to was the idea that parents might have some say regarding how their children were treated.

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Guest
Jan 14, 2014#51
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jeff,

A very brief post. On the sexuality issue, i think there is more to your underlying position than some may give credit for. In the 50’s and 60’s we knew little of the relation between sexuality and pain. Yes there was Freud on ‘beating a boy’, but it was with the early 60’s and neo Freudians , especially Jaques Lacan, who first published both the collected works and commentary on the Marquis de Sade ( with the remarkably perspicacious ‘Freud before Freud tag ) that we first gained a real insight into the dark world of sadomasochism as anything other than a ‘learned perversion’.

Before that time the ‘science ‘ of paddling was just passed from father to son, mother to daughter , teacher to teacher , without any framework for understanding the process , the inherent sexuality , or the appropriate responses. I’ve asked for example, Jackie , who paddled me , and her own daughter , let alone the kids in school, why she did it. Her response was that it worked , but she did it far less frequently than was normal in her school days , and far less frequently than it had been done to her . Although a PhD in child psychology, it wasn’t until ten years after Lacan’s first publications that she picked up the material. Not unusual it STILL isn’t on most teaching programmes in training college .

During her career she cut down massively in the frequency and severity of paddling given……..the number of staff involved were reduced, no paddling except in the office, and for only limited range of offences. But however you cut it that generation were unlikely to back simple abolition. Those leading schools today are more likely to do so. But one fact which always holds back teaching change is that the ‘teacher trainers’ are often those at the END of their careers, so basically many taught and received techniques are always 20 years behind the curve.

Of course for those individuals who are driven into teaching by paddling, they will concentrate more and more in a smaller and smaller geographical areas, and , the real perverts will for obvious reasons, be the last to relinquish their power in this regard. These individuals are often the most tenacious. For example, I suspect most teachers today on reading the literature on violation of bodily privacy in older teenagers, would agree that there is no place for paddling in Senior High. I think its obvious, but whilst this is the easiest to ‘sell’ it is often the most keenly fought by a handful of (male?) principals. these arguments have nothing to do with classroom control, but everything to do with maintaining a practice which is difficult to defend pedagogically , and is simply resisted as a diminution of the power of the Principal to dominate his/her students.

Back in say the 690′ or 70’s you couldn’t have made that statement, because the literature was , frankly virtually unread by teachers or decision makers. .
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 14, 2014#52
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jenny,

I mostly agree with what you had to say in most of your post — and even where I disagree, I understand where you would think that as long as the child did something wrong, that it would not concern you much the adult school staff member was sexually aroused by spanking the student. (Do you really feel that way — would you want someone who was sexually aroused by spanking your son or daughter to be spanking them, and designating those spankings?)

The problem is, very nature of a person becoming sexual aroused when spanking an unaware, unconsenting (to the sexual aspect) child- student corrupts the entire parent-teacher/child relationship at its core. The nature of sexual arousal — the joke for a man being, “as the little head fills up with blood, the big head empties out…” and such is that the person’s motivation and clear thinking are overwhelmed immediately when their own sexual arousal spanking the child come to the fore. The person will be much more prone to select the spanking option, or concoct onerous alternatives so an older student must “choose” spanking and be railroaded into it — much like the Ohio cop who arrested teen boys for speeding but trumped up the charges so he could blackmail them into the weekly spy cam recorded spanking that he apparently enjoyed doling out and watching re-runs of in bed. This is surely the reason high rate paddling schools tend to have very draconian alternates — much worse than they were in past decades — to force students to choose the paddle that they want to give, and then to give it often and with much gusto, likely spy cam recording it often — compared to non-paddling schools that have moved away from this mind set.

Further studies have shown that people hit children with increasing force over time without realizing their force is increasing. How much more so a testosterone filled man sexually aroused by spanking the child or adolescent?

Jeff
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Jan 14, 2014#53
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Prof — a good post and you reminded me of many other things as I read it.

You mentioned spanking and paddling being passed from parent to parent and from teacher to teacher — but when you dig back further, you eventually get to the dark ages and that theology of beating the sin out of people and torturing their flesh to save them in the afterlife, the treating of many classes of people as property and able to violate them in every way, and etc., and always with many people fighting for human rights and dignity — which I would class Jesus, at the very least, of being an early example also. It is sad that Jesus is so often cited as supporting spanking when he never once did — and to me if anything led an example of quite the opposite.

Then you have the Stockholm Syndrome — another recent psychological partial understanding that has lent itself to the perpetuation of child beating. As with adults within a few hours of rape or death threats, you can torture a child and mix it with small kindness and build a terrific lifetime slave, sexual or otherwise, as long as you don’t give a crap you also induced a lifetime mental illness into the child. This is a part of the reason children who are horrifically abused often will stick by the abuser for life.

And yet we also know child abuse and exploitation has also been very common in history, with the nopaddle site quoting the “Lies My Teacher Told Me” book about how Christopher Columbus was rewarding his Lieutenants with sex slaves from the New World, with the greatest demand for girls aged 9 or 10. The virginity of females was sometimes protected if the girl’s father had financial status, but not so much the rape of boys, with even in the 1960’s US no law against “buggering” boys in Rhode Island I believe with the Catholic scandals. In Boston it would have been illegal, but the chief of police there, if a complaint was brought to him, being a good Catholic, simply tore it up and stated “We don’t investigate priests.”

So beating kids made sense I suppose in an age where they could be tortured and sexually used with little or no consequence in many settings.

I think at all times a lot of people enjoyed beating and exploiting children and slaves — DeSade openly admitting so — and I doubt people were quite so naive about that as we might suppose, even if they did not have the psychological explanations for it.

Jeff
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mommabearof2
Jan 14, 2014#54
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hello, Jeff Charles

Very glad to hear that you want to rework your site and make it a more polite but still feel you are missing a huge opportunity with your website. I am a mother of two younger children and also work in a day care center and one of the things you have to learn is to communicate in ways they those children can understand! My advice to you is ask who are the people who support school corporal punishment and what kind of arguments will start to spread seeds of doubt?

To answer my own questions the answer it is mostly conservatives, religious people, and minorities who support the paddle in school. With those crowds doubt the anti spanking argument will do much good so you have to ask what other messages can I use to convince them? I think the answer to when it comes to the conservatives is make it a issue about big government, and how these government employes are getting special rights that parents don’t!

http://prntscr.com/2ixwsp

Jeff Wrote

Well aware of these laws that protect educators from criminal and civil lawsuits if they go to far with the paddle but want to see hard proof that claim extends to school paddling pornography. It seems like a bit of a slippery slope argument to me say that just because they have law protecting from civil lawsuit and criminal charges that some how applies to child paddling pornography. I admit could be 100 wrong and if I am please prove me wrong.

My last suggestion is really simple if you ever update your book/website. Provide citations to your claims, it will make you sound a lot more credible.
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 15, 2014#55
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Mommabear — I looked up some relevent excerpts from Alabama law — and decided to make it its own category as it is a significant topic, rather than just post it here,.

As to convincing anyone — I think it is impossible if the person is sexually aroused and gratified by spanking and paddling children, teens, and young adults, as I also think pretty much every paddling “educator” is to some degree. I cannot reach them as they do not want to be reached, and they benefit from the present ignorance and/or indifference of society to children’s rights, much as Columbus and is Lieutenents would be hard to convince that trade in 9-year-old and younger child sex slaves was immoral.

Likewise people who are parroting in ignorance whatever they recieved growing up, and perhaps have melded spanking and paddling with culture or religion and etc., are generally closed minded in all respects on all issues, and can seldom be reached. No matter the level of proof, science, history, or religion exposed — they will think it all the Devil’s work somehow.

I could go on, but the primary people I hope to reach are people who may be confused or are in denial, are probabaly searching the issue “for some reason” hence they would find my site in the first place, and who are open minded enough that when they see something plainly stated that they perhaps felt for a long time, but thought perhaps they were the only one to think that, and etc., might allow themselves to question their childhood conditioning — they might be given permission to acknowledge what they already knew deep down all along.

This will not change no matter how well I do or do not fix the nopaddle site. The like this fill find the truth and will be empowered by it even if poorly presented, and the ones closed and looking for excuses to keep legally slapping children’s buttocks and such will not be convinced no matter how elegant the presentation or prooofs. As Jesus noted of truth generally — you have to have eyes to see, and ears to hear.

Also, however, these issues are very hard to process for people, even when they deep down see the truths of it, and often a seed is planted that takes years, maybe decades, to finally be acknowledged. Even for child rape and extreme abuse victims, they can seldom “come out” until age 40 or so. How much more so our official buttocks whacking that most of their society told them was “not abuse” and was “Jesus’ will” even.

So, once again, I’ll open a new thread with the paddler immunity statute of Alabama with some posted and relevant excerpts showing that the paddler immunity act nullifies the entire child abuse statute, including laws for teachers to be mandatory reporters of abuse, and including laws against the production of child pornography, and also including laws against malicious beating of children, and etc.

Peace,

Jeff
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JennyBr
1,776
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Jan 16, 2014#56
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Jeff

Provided they were using CP for a legitimate reason and not purely for self-gratification, I honestly can’t see any reason to object on those grounds.

Note. I’m snipping quotes purely for brevity, leaving those parts I’m commenting on.

That’s a valid point and something to guard against. Where alternatives are offered, they should always be reasonable punishments for the offence committed. It shouldn’t be difficult to spot when a teacher is forcing a student’s hand (“5000 lines or 2 with the slipper?”) It’s more difficult if a teacher simply chooses to use CP. Personally, I preferred it to the mind-numbing, soul destroying, time wasting tortures like lines and detentions but I know not everyone would agree. I agree there is a possibility that teachers who are sexually aroused by using CP might be prone to select it. I believe it’s also quite likely that some of them, recognizing those feeling in themselves, would avoid using it for that very reason.

Now, how about teachers who get their kicks torturing children by making them waste time in detention or writing hundreds of lines – which are then torn up in front of their eyes?

Another valid point. Again it’s something to guard against but I’m surprised you chose “a testosterone filled man” as an example. You should be more concerned about PMS driven women.

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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Jan 18, 2014#57
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…

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stoppaddling
29
Jan 18, 2014#58
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Lurker — why is the paddle porno pic on Japanese TV something I or “my ilk” love?

It would be nice for realism to show real paddlings, but I think it a violation of the child due to the inherent pornographic nature of paddling — a fact that makes it somewhat easy apparently to find spanking porno to imitate life.

In any case I decided to create my own content for illustrative purposes and made no secret that the model had never been paddled — didn’t even know what it was.

Some paddle porno sites do have realistic paddling pictures that could theoretically be likewise used for illustrative purposes — but generally the paddle porno companies do not want to release even clothed model paddle shots to another use except porno. Also it may not be fair to the paddle porno model to have the photos released to the more open public when they originally posed for what they believed would be just for the paddle pornography.

As near as I can tell from interviewing people on spanking and paddling fetish sites, at least half of fetishists believe in spanking and paddling children, so the existance of spanking and paddling porno is neither pro or anti spanking and paddling.

Jeff
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Jan 18, 2014#59
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Jenny,

As I pointed out on the nopaddle website, paddling schools, especially high schools, have over the past few decades when they started paddling more teen females with primarily male paddlers and witnesses, not coincidentally I suspect, have ramped up trivial violations as reasons for paddling, and have at the same time ramped up the alternates when public outcry began to grow against their butt beating fun. Paddling schools generally have much harsher punishments off all types than non — and suspensions in particular have had a huge inflation in paddling schools over the past few decades. The “ISS or ***” quid-pro-quo sexual harassment option that is common in paddling schools is designed soley to force nearly adult high school students to “Choose the paddle.” They have to choose five swats or five days ISS and getting zeros and if that is not enough – missing sports and cheerleading if they choose ISS, but not if they choose paddling, etc Then if something goes wrong in ISS they get paddled anyway.

Yes — female paddlers may be influenced by PMS — and that is certainly a big factor in home child abuse with mothers suffering from PMS — but the sadistic heavy hitter women I hear about do not seem so moved by emotional swings – maybe some are — but some sound more motivated by a bit too much testosterone in their development. Female dogs that are dominant as well as lab rats and other animals can actually have a mounting instinct if they have just a touch too much testosterone at two critical periods of development. I think that might be a part of the reason for the stereotype of the “lesbian” gym coach who often is a heavy hitter in paddling schools as well. Also in a study that measured genital blood flow of people watching scenes of violence against women 30% of men were aroused, and 11% of women.

As I’ve mentioned often but people seldom remember, anything I say about females can pretty much be applied to children of both genders and young adolescent males as well as male children are quite feminized compared to adult men.

In any case sadism is a danger common to any gender paddler and any age victim, and anytime someone has a job that involves deliberately inflicting pain and suffering upon others. The sexual aspect of paddling adds another deep motivation.

Peace,

Jeff
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HH2012
836
Jan 18, 2014#60
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Jeff, and thank you for your responses above. The response for “sexual overtones in paddling” and “Strapping the hands ok?” were actually both to me, not KK, but no worries .

Everything you say absolutely has an element of truth to it, and I for one see it. There is one suggestion I would like to make in regards to the sexual component of CP. Absolutely and undeniably for some component of humanity, this is a real and undeniable component, and this makes up part of the “harm” side of an issue. But is it a fraction of a fraction, or a pervasive cancer?

In your response you mentioned “Every paddling position is essentially a recognized pornographic or anal rape position ”. I am wondering, if you present this case in this format on your website? If you do, I respectfully suggest you might consider rephrasing it in some way because this works entirely against you and I will explain why.

I don’t know who “recognized it” and likely the people who did are the ones, we as society, should be extremely vigilant against. This may not have occurred to you, but in the normal operation of parenting, a child’s pelvic area is handled in some permutation of your “anal rape” position (at my estimate) at least 5,000 times throughout their childhood if not more. As an infant, being diapered and bottom wiped countless times, temperature taken when ill (our physicians recommend rectal thermometers through toddler phase), medications applied as suppositortes, then potty training, assisiting with toileting, changing, bathing and washing and drying, etc.

I contrast this to the perhaps 10 times they got a few smacks on the bum as a disciplinary measure. Well 10 vs 5,000+, if any “damage” was done, it is a 99.8% chance that the damage then resulted from other operations of parenting, and a 0.2% or less chance from the few transitory smacks on the bum.

Please show some proof of your assertions. You and both know it’s hard to come by but at least some empirical data, as if any claims are true, this must necessarily manifest somehow in society.

mommabear and I have out ideological differences, and sometimes, we downright don’t understand each other! That’s becasue she feels what she feels, and I am only intrested in some form of proof which in a social science like this one, can at best manifest in empirical data. But, there’s one thing I’m sure of, that she’s 100% in agreement with me on this one: we both have small children and we both love them above and beyond all else. What you are in effect doing is labelling every parent as a serial rapist. Do you believe that accurately reflects the reality of life? I think mommabear as myself take extreme insult that tht line of accusation, and of course, you ahve no proof that all parents indeed serial child rapists. If it were true, we should rightfully abolish birth, imprison all existing parents, and that would be the end of it. Socierty is saved.

If someone chooses to see some perverted sexual dimension to every aspect in life, they are free to do so. That is their personal right, but it is not their right to impose their perversions on others. I could see the position of driving a car with hands on the steering wheel as some sexual position.It depends on how far down the rabbit hole one wants to decend. Should be ban driving? I don’t know. Another hard sell based solely on the sexual implications of that position, but perhaps one day enough will be convinced of it.

What you’ve completely failed to ignore is ”intent”. What is the intent of the operation? Is the parent intending to rape their child? or are they intending to carry out an operation geared to the wellfare of the child? you’ve missed out on the whole reason why most people live to impose some perversion of logic on them, and that is most unfortunate.

So I suggest, if you present this kind of thing on your website, I honestly believe most people will take the violence of your words to reflect the violence in your mind.and thus, you will not only lose the support of those you wish to engender, but actually turn the undecided against your cause because it looks like a nutcase presenting it. Jeff, please no offence, I mean this respectfully, but you have to be aware of optics in your message. Most do not see what you do. You are entittlled to believe what you believe, but your message neeeds to have braod appeal. Can you at all see that?
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 18, 2014#61
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi HH,

Diapering a baby is necessary for medical and hygine. Beating a child is not necessary.

There are vast sexual differences between diapering a baby and spanking a teen or beating a teen with a board.

Nonetheless legitimae medical practices can be invasive. The differences are many but generally, besides being necessary for health, every effort in medicine or baby care is made to make the patient as comfortable as possible, and any pain that comes is minimized to every extent possible (with the possible and controversial circumcision debate).

Anal thermometers are not much used these days even for babies. The temperature strips and ear things work about as well and are much preferable for children, as even toddlers can be aware of a violation there.

Peace,

Jeff
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KKxyz
3,590
53
Jan 18, 2014#62
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Recently, I had a small girl run naked through my house squealing with joy and delight. This was shortly after she had taken a shower with her mother. The family were guests in my house.

Her parents and I were not in the least put out by the event. I found it endearing – I felt more kindly, protective and nurturing towards the child. The sight of her buttocks did not incite any feelings of a sexual nature. I believe my response and feelings are normal, mainstream, common, near universal. However, I often do this – assume others must feel the same as me in the absence of evidence to the contrary. I assume others do the same.

Jeff, I fear that you attribute your own proclivities and feelings to others and do so without evidence or justification. Few feel the same way as you. By attributing your unusual feelings to others, you immediately offend many who might otherwise be persuaded that paddling is harmful and that there are better ways of dealing with misbehaviour. You risk being seen as a crank and a pervert. The shield laws are targeted at people like you.

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Guest
Jan 19, 2014#63
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Jeff,

You’ve made some interesting points, and so has HH. I do actually thinks large part of ‘difference’ in perspective is a social issue and almost an issue of ‘what and how we see’ . I know I horrify the scientists here ( and many in my own field as well)because I come at the subject from a perspective that denies we can see, recognise or test empirical social facts. There are no social facts , because all society mediates what it sees as ‘real’ reality through its own ideological preconceptions , which are themselves caused by the entirety of the social experience of the individual.

In my belief as I’ve said the social construction of the educational world in the Southern US was such that if you go back to say the 1950’s the ideological framework took paddling as a given. , sex, race, age didn’t matter, in most cases an infraction was dealt with swiftly by a class teacher with a paddling in the classroom or hallway . Jackie , my ex principal friend, was brought up in East Texas in the 50’s and attended a largish High School located on the edge of the nearest ‘market’ town. It was semi rural, and she tells me hardly a day, sometimes a class(!) went by without someone getting the paddle. Amongst the girls she was paddled one of the most , because she was bright and her questions were often interpreted as ‘smart mouthed’ or sassy’.Paddling was so ubiquitous that kids rarely got a chance to defend themselves or explain their actions.It was seen as a low level discipline . Now there were some teachers who openly ‘enjoyed’ it . She remembers a couple of male teachers who if asked to witness a hallway paddling by a female teacher, would offer to do it themselves .Those, male or female who ‘enjoyed’ it were often feared , and they really put heart and soul into the process.

When she started to study social science she rationalised this as because the society they lived in, often the difference between survival and absolute poverty was down to an odd decision or chance. God, weather, death and working the land with their hands was the way of living for the majority. A middle class household like hers where the parents were both teachers was exceptional, and they were in that sense seen socially as a little apart apart . Sharp, painful consequences of wrong decisions typified life for most people .Many folk were perennially near foreclosure, and there often is in these situations a fatalism- ‘no explanation for the movement of God’s hand’.I maybe have a ‘rose tinted’ view of that , but its pretty much ‘Last picture show’/’Porkies’ type of America.

Such areas only exit to a limited extent today. The big cities have abolished, and the middle class suburbs who retain it often use it sparingly, but the heart of paddling is in the smaller agrarian and often strongly religious communities. These are , of course exactly the communities where works like Lacan will never have spread. These areas have the greatest resistance not only to change and are socially highly conservative, but also have sufficient close social reinforcement that makes anyone opposing the use of the paddle a social outcast. Again Springtown TX where it is reported the two girls who rightly reported the breaching of guidelines have , rather like the wild west been ‘run out of town’. The paddler who was not only unrepentant but ‘in your face ‘ about his actions , is the king for a day, and supported by the local pastors , the football team and the cheerleaders. No change then from sally Gaspherson all those years ago!

I believe its only in these small insular communities where superintendents and principals who support widespread paddling still exist. What is noticeable is that the gulf between the ‘old fashioned’ schools still maintaining a traditional regime, and those schools who retain but rarely use the paddle is growing. My belief is that as the hold outs become more and more isolated, so the staff who choose to work there will become more and more self selecting , and include a larger proportion of those who never be allowed to paddle than was common when the proactive was near universal. So as the divide sharpens , problems multiply , not reduce because of the concentration of personnel.

In short when paddling is accepted and universal there are very few bad apples in a very large barrel. Those that there are will probably largely gravitate to heavy paddling schools and military academies etc. Later as the barrel shrinks the rotten apples stay in it , ans they are not amenable to reducing or abolishing the practice, and certainly not open to new evidence. This concentrates the issue geographically, socially, and administratively into similar types of districts. Therefore to achieve abolition in these areas requires legislation , it won’;t just come by accretion, and legislation probably opposed by the educators and school boards – very difficult in a weak federalist system with limited central powers.

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JennyBr
1,776
2
Jan 19, 2014#64
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi Jeff

Just for clarification, I use the term “CP” to refer to corporal punishment in general rather than specifically paddling. In England, it was mostly the cane or slipper (actually a plimsoll/gymshoe) although saome, most Northern areas used the strap/belt. In Scotland, it was mainly the tawse (commonly referred to as “the belt”) “CP” covers those as well as paddling.

That could mean one of two things. Either schools that employ CP are harsher, in general, to their students or, by offering overly onerous or disproportionate alternatives, they seek out as many ways as they can to use CP. From what else you’ve said, I believe the latter is the more likely.

I don’t believe a simple ban on CP is the answer. All I envisage would happen is that those schools would continue using overly severe, non-CP, methods so, later, they could argue than the ban on CP isn’t working – “just look at how many students we have to put in ISS/OSS now!”

What’s needed is some method of policing what schools do. For a start I would remove the shield laws that allow teachers to treat their students in a manner that would rightly be classed as abuse if done by parents. The second step would be more tricky. Schools could be restricted to punishments that are “reasonable” for the offence. The problem there is the definition of “reasonable”. Areas where CP is common and generally accepted are likely to define it differently from other areas. Asking parents what they think is a reasonable non-CP punishment for given offences might be a way of going about it.

Whatever the cause, it’s something to guard against. It’s no good guarding against one cause and allowing abuse from another cause to go unchecked.

Does that differ in people watching scenes of violence against men and, if so, how?

The problem is that, although you may often mention it, the thrust of your arguments seem to be deal solely with the issue on male teachers punishing female students. As I said, that can make a good, eye-catching, headline but it comes at a price.

I feel you’re in danger of resurrecting the sexism that pervaded the education system. Even now, despite attempts to eradicate it, it still festers below the surface waiting to raise its ugly head again. I doubt you want a return to the system where children were beaten just because they were the “wrong” sex but that was what happened. If that system returns, not only will the problem have been made worse, you will, most likely, also have lost your eye-catching headline.

HH made a point about equating paddling positions with “pornographic or anal rape position”. I don’t believe the danger is as great as he believes it to be but the potential is there.

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Jan 19, 2014#65
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Hi HH

In your reply to Jeff you said:

Some things are unquestionably for the welfare of the child, other things are questionable. Many parents and teachers claim that using CP is for the child’s welfare and some honestly believe that. Doctor Dominum (who hasn’t posted for a while), for example, has said that caning is beneficial for boys. (He has also described caning girls as “hitting girls with sticks”, thereby making it appear more like gratuitous violence in the case of girls.)

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HH2012
836
Jan 19, 2014#66
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Oh Dear, Hi Jenny, ..oh dear, you have misquoted me and I fear you have cempletely missed the point of what I said above. …it may be the many typos I didn’t corect this time

You said, “HH made a point about equating paddling positions with “pornographic or anal rape position”. I don’t believe the danger is as great as he believes it to be but the potential is there”

No, I didn’t say this, I was responding to Jeff who said that. I was making the point that he should seriously reconsider how he presents this line in his arguments on his website, if that is what is there. I then showed how the position he finds so offensive is a very common one used in parenting (5,000+ times over a child’s life) and by framing his argument in the way he does, this inadvertently calls all parents serial rapists. Not a good thing to do to seriously insult everyone if you’re trying to get their sympathies for your cause. That was my point.

Plus, it depends on what country you’re in to say such things. I’m sure it’s OK to make such statements in the USA, but in my country a variety of laws protect the LGBT group. (Even my provincial Premier is in this group) I assume that intimate and loving relationships within this group are conducted in the manner he derides, so calling them all anal rapists probably falls under our hate crime statutes here. Either way, that’s not scoring him the points he needs to get.

For the record, Jeff and I are actually of the same opinion regarding CP use except only for one: I believe CP is inappropriate from adolescents on up (because beyond about 12, other methods rise in efficacy and the harm index begins to rise significantly for various reasons he outlines), so does he. I believe implements are inappropriate and can be dangerous, so does he. I believe there is no longer room for CP in schools anywhere, so does he. The only difference is that I believe it is useful in a limited fashion on the parental side, here he disagrees and that’s perfectly fine by me

If I had independently written the interpretations of our laws as our Supreme Court did on 2004, it is uncanny that I would have come to all the same conclusions they did. Jeff also made a reference to washing out the mouth with soap. I had never seen or experienced or even been aware of anyoe who experienced this in my childhood. I only saw this in “a Chrsitams Story, a movie abut a boy wanting a Red Rider BB gun. Methods liek these are also something banned in my country fallingunder “cruel or unusual punishment” … This that includes forceing a child to ingest a noxious substance, which soap is as it’s not meant to be ingested.

You’ll find me right in the midst of opinion in my country. You can see at the Golabl Initiativesite, latest surveys… I oppose SCP, and surveys suggest only 7% would want it. Great, that’s a dead issue and we know it! I support the retention of parental CP in a limitee fashion, and generally 80% of pre-teen parents are likewise (also a similar figure for the USA at present). 7% see our laws as too limiting or restrictive. So again, I represent the thoughts of the typical Canadian at this point in time.

prof.n gave a good discussion above, and except for the empirical data comments, I agree with everything he says. I have opined before that SCP is on the way out in the USA and probably will have died out by one more generation. Look at the steady stream of States that ban, ISDs within allowed states that an, and even within allowed ISDs, the steady decline in usitlization rates. Also I suspect higher and higher opt-out participation as time goes on so once a school is down to the great majority opted out, what’s the point of it, just remove it. Connecting the dots it’s not a matter of IF SCP is entirely anned in the USA, but WHEN.

I think attacking PCP (parental) is not the right way to go about this because you’re in the clear minority. My approach would be to convince every parent that it is within their right if they choose to do so but no one elses includind educators, to use CP. That I think would work, and once SCP has all but disappeared, you can then convince parents that it is not anyone’s right to do so. You’ll note I’ve shown before that CP bans in almost every country is minimally a three-step process. First, JCP (judicial) is removed as people are convinced no one an be “beaten” by an operation of government. Then SCP can be abolished using the reasoning I gave above. Then finally, PCP can be deminished to the point of disappearing.

I was always dismayed at the stupid way the Council of Europe went about this. Simply banning something that still has widespead support is counter-productive, and will have unintended negative consequences. Look at Germany, banned in 2000 and recent polls show 40% of parents still use it – I think the number is much higher becasue cetain people will not admit to committing an offence to a stranger on the phone!!!

You need to spend the money for mass adertising and reeducation of the populace first, then once a sufficient amount of the populace has no need for it because the well-adetised altenatives are working well, they become ideologically against CP. At that point, a ban can be introduced with little or no consequence becasue very few support it. That’s just my thoughts.

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Jan 19, 2014#67
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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Oh Jenny, I meant to add… when I was talkng about “are they intending to carry out an operation geared to the welfare of the child?”

I think you misunderstood what I was talking about: I was talking about the 5,000+ times parents have to handle their child;s pelvic area in operations like changing diapers, toiletting/pottying, washing, etc. IMHO, all these operations are conducted for the child’s welfare, and not for some gratuitous or nefarious motives.
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Guest
Jan 20, 2014#68
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

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I meant to post this on the bottom of last nights post … I have put it up before , I’m sure…..this is Eliza Gilkyson playing brother Tony’s number ‘Death in Arkansas’ , its about change and continuity in agricultural towns such as those I was instancing. We often g forget just how far society has moved in 50 years or so , from wooden side walks to shopping malls …..btw for those who follow these things , pleased to see Tony is recovering from the Lyme disease which struck him low …. Tony,many ( ok a few of you) will know , was a member of band X in the 80’s (86 to 95 I think) having replaced Billy Zoom .

Sorry abpout the ‘plug’ at the start , but this is by far the best version available
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 20, 2014#69
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
kk — I agree most men would not be aroused by the sight of a child too young to know she is naked running through the house — if anything, for most parents, it might bring back a happy memory of their own children at that innocent age. And then the parent would typically instruct the child that he or she needs to put on clothes, or if too young, would get the toddler dressed.

Even a teen girl or adult woman with a fleeting glimpse of some intended nudity would not be erotic or stimulating for most people — although a sexual line would have been crossed that might be hard to erase.

If you are old like me you might remember Norman Rockwell. He would paint pictures of Americana and family life and would sometimes include spanking. He would sometimes include the child being bare butt also == and the child would typically be about the age of 4 or so. I suppose that was considered cute and is sometimes seen today on fetish interest sites — probably someone has it here somewhere.

But as children age into school age the dynamics increasingly change and become ever more sexual. What makes something perverted is not a casual accidental glimpse, but the forced nudity and forced pain and exposure to their increasingly sexual areas.

I don’t believe Norman Rockwell ever painted a scene with a man paddling a teen girl — and if he did, there is no decade of American life where that would not have been seen as a very perverted image. By “perverted” here I do not mean necessarily unusual == I mean the hallmark being someone is used or exploited or, as is one definition of pornography, someone is being treated as a non-person.

By the way I think we can discuss these issues without resorting to making inuendos about what the other people do or do not react to sexually, etc. — which I feel is generally a sign the other person cannot deal with the issue or discussion at hand and resorts to a personal attack instead. I could wonder about your sexual motives in all of this as well.

Peace,

Jeff
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KKxyz
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Jan 20, 2014#70
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Jeff wrote (in part):

Jeff, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. You seem to see paddling as sexually charged. I suggest that most who use and receive the paddle in the school situation do not.

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Jenny
Jan 21, 2014#71
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

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I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hi HH

I’m not sure who is misunderstanding whom. I certainly did not mean to misrepresent your position if, indeed, that is what I did.

I said,

You replied

I point I inferred from your previous post was that there was a danger (to Jeff’s argument) in his equating paddling positions with “pornographic or anal rape positions. I just abbreviated it to your making a point. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

It’s a pity this wasn’t raised several years ago. My local pub, where I used to live, was a popular haunt for members of that community, I could have asked their opinions.

Jeff didn’t say all anal intercourse is anal rape, only that the position a child is put into is also used for anal rape. It’s used for consensual anal and vaginal intercourse too.

I do agree that he doesn’t do his cause any favours by using those analogies.

Strange though it may seem, I’m starting to agree with Jeff although it has been some of the pro-CP group who have done more to convince me they’re wrong than the anti-CP group have to convince me they’re right.

The anti-CP group all argue, albeit indirectly, in favour of treating children fairly and equally – no CP for either sex. Many (not all) of the pro-CP group argue for treating children unequally, hence unfairly – beat boys but never girls. Overall, the anti-CP group are the fairer of the two.

The European Court of Human Rights ruled that SCP without the parents’ consent infringed the parents’ human rights. It didn’t ban SCP, it just said that schools could not use it on a child without the consent of that child’s parents. In effect, it put power back into the hands of parents. If they supported a school’s use of CP, they could permit the school to use it on their children.

It was the intransigence of headteachers that resulted in the total ban in the UK. They tried to blackmail the Government and dishonestly claimed a system that meant two children could commit exactly the same offence but only one could be caned was unworkable. I say that claim was dishonest because many schools already a policy exempting approximately half their students. All that would have changed would have been how the members of the exempt group were selected.

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HH2012
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Jan 23, 2014#72
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hi Jenny, thanks for your replies.

I confess I was unclear about something and will clear that up now. Where I said, “I was always dismayed at the stupid way the Council of Europe went about this. Simply banning something that still has widespread support is counter-productive, and will have unintended negative consequences.”

I was actually talking about the parental CP bans, not SCP. The comments you made about how the SCP bans went down in the EU/UK are quite correct. But I would add, simultaneously with those bans were occurring, public support for SCP was precipitously dropping anyway … so to my mind there was no oversized unintended consequence because of SCP’s removal.

However, there are major negatives to PCP removal in the face of some 80% parental support for it while the bans were/are being imposed. (I just recently read the entire details of my Supreme Court judges’ decisions in their 2004 rulings on that matter here and was surprised to see they recognized the exact same things I do). That was my point of those comments: that is, the way PCP bans should be approached is though high-profile education / marketing campaigns to change parental opinions first, such that support for CP is in the great minority. That may take a generation, and so be it. But then, once those attitudes have permanently been changed, bans can be instituted with little or no negative consequence because no one to any degree either wants it or uses it anyway. Does that make sense?

I bring PCP into the mix because Jeff is interested to see all forms (JCP, SCP, and PCP) banned. You cannot win a sweeping war, you need to win battles one-by-one, and the battle that needs to be won here is eradication of SCP in the USA first before you can tackle PCP with any expectation of a result. Also, there are 20 states that still (technically) allow JCP in juvinile detention. Although I have no clue whether it’s actually used anywhere in American juvinile detention today (Jeff, maybe you know this???), this is something that also needs to be removed if anyone has any hope of possibly bringing PCP bans in. That’s my opinion on how that usually works.
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mommabearof2
Jan 24, 2014#73
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Before even responding to Jenny post want to make it perfectly clear that my position has not changed in any way, I am still against using physical punishment on children of any gender.

Jenny Wrote

Only speaking for myself I am personally feel it is more wrong to use cp on a girl then a boy. I arrive at this conclusion based on my short time volunteering at battered women’s shelter. I do not remember them talking about it happening it school but it seemed like all the women at that shelter had stories about getting cp at home often. Maybe I am 100 percent wrong but I got the impression while talking to them that because their loving parents used physical punishment on them it made it easier to accept it from a boy friend or husband who loves them.

But on the other hand my stubborn strong willed daughter has given me more headaches and pre-mature grey hairs then my son.
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JennyBr
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Jan 24, 2014#74
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hi mommabear2

You might come to the opposite conclusion if you worked at a battered men’s shelter – there aren’t many such shelters (far too few to cope with demand) but if you look hard enough you might find one. I expect you’d find an even greater proportion of battered men received CP when they were younger, simply because boys in general were more likely to have been beaten at school.

I wouldn’t be surprised to find that (male) abusers were more likely to have attended sexist schools where they were caned while worse behaved girls were let off. The resentment that caused could easily erupt in later life. I mentioned something similar here. I want to make it perfectly clear that “Alan”, did not offer any violence towards me nor show violent tendencies.

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mommabearof2
Jan 24, 2014#75
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hello Jenny.

Very well thought out post as usual Jenny. I can’t really disagree with anything you have said will try to add to what you said a little bit.

Jenny Wrote

*You might come to the opposite conclusion if you worked at a battered men’s shelter – there aren’t many such shelters (far too few to cope with demand) but if you look hard enough you might find one. I expect you’d find an even greater proportion of battered men received CP when they were younger, simply because boys in general were more likely to have been beaten at school.*

Don’t disagree with you although I think it has more to do with getting it at home rather then at school. (along with many other factors)

*I wouldn’t be surprised to find that (male) abusers were more likely to have attended sexist schools where they were caned while worse behaved girls were let off. The resentment that caused could easily erupt in later life. I mentioned something similar here. I want to make it perfectly clear that “Alan”, did not offer any violence towards me nor show violent tendencies.*

I do not disagree with anything you said but want to make my own point. I think a double standard like that could give a lady sense of superiority over guy just because she is a women.
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JennyBr
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Jan 24, 2014#76
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hi mommabear2

Not that long ago you said “although we passionately disagree” but, as I said at the time, we don’t disagree on much.

That’s one possibility but I think the opposite is just as likely.

The sexist policies some schools had of caning boys and giving girls some other punishment for no reason other than their sex is clearly unfair. Interestingly, one of the proponents of CP and sex discrimination (or “gender differentiation” as he put it) presumed I was claiming it was unfair to boys – despite my usually saying that it’s not always clear which was treated the less favourably. Perhaps he inferred what he did because he believes it’s unfair to boys.

In the case involving “Alan”, caning the boys and letting the girls off scot free appears, prima facie, to be unfair to boys. However, the school was taking serious steps to discourage boys from smoking whilst, for practical purposes, allowing the girls to smoke themselves to death.

In another case, a boy might get a couple of whacks with the slipper for some minor offence whilst an equally guilty girl gets an hour’s detention or 500 lines. I’d say she was treated less favourably. This is similar to excessive non-CP punishments being offered as an alternative to CP.

The proponents of CP for boys only try arguing that girls were given an “equivalent” punishment. Thus far they have been unable to say what a true equivalent is. That’s not surprising because the moment they do, they have no argument for using CP – they can use the non-CP equivalent instead.

As I said, punishing boys and girls differently is clearly unfair but it’s not clear which sex it’s unfair to. It’s almost certain to cause problem but that lack of clarity makes it impossible to predict how those problems will manifest.

In “Alan’s” case, they manifested as misogyny. Some of the girls involved may have felt superior in being allowed to do something boys were prohibited from doing. It could have caused some to see boys as lesser life forms, just “things” to be abused. A few years later, some of the girls might be questioning why the school allowed them to smoke – wasn’t girls’ health considered important?

From my own experiences of it, I don’t consider CP, per se, necessarily worse than other sanctions. I know others had different experiences and have formed different opinions as a result. The point is, however, it’s made out to be more severe.

Consider just two sanctions, call them CP and non-CP. Girls are exempt from CP but boys aren’t exempt from non-CP. Therefore boys are considered strong enough, both mentally and physically, to withstand either sanction but girls are only strong enough to withstand non-CP. CP must be the more severe because, if non-CP were, the weaker sex (whichever it be presumed to be) would be liable to CP and exempt from non-CP. As CP is the more severe, so severe that only boys can withstand it, then boys must be superior to girls.

Those girls in “Alan’s” case might have felt superior but the school was treating them as inferior, so inferior that their health and future well-being was considered unimportant.

Just to be clear, I’m not advocating a return (or retention) of CP. It isn’t CP or the lack thereof that causes problems, it’s the discriminatory treatment.

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mommabearof2
Jan 25, 2014#77
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hello Jenny.

Sure your right that such unequal treatment can in some girls make them feel inferior and in some cases superior. I think the answer would be whether or not the girl saw cp as a worse punishment then detention, writing lines, or suspension.

I remember you writing that you did not(please correct me if I am wrong) like after school detention and thought it was worse punishment then the slipper or cane. My question for you is what about detention made you feel that way?

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Jeff Charles
Jan 25, 2014#78
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

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I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hi Prof,

First off, I find your brief analysis very interesting, and I am sure has a great deal of truth in it. You have also hit on the community bullying of anyone who complains about paddling in these small towns. I will add a few comments from what I’ve also began to understand recently about these dynamics that you may also find interesting.

You wrote 1) “There are no social facts , because all society mediates what it sees as ‘real’ reality through its own ideological preconceptions , which are themselves caused by the entirety of the social experience of the individual.”

There is much truth in this — and some have proposed that the scientific, peer-reviewed studies that overwhelmingly show negative outcomes for spanking are biased by our culture which is more and more seeing problems with hitting and butt hitting and etc., and that perhaps the entire problems are caused by our awareness, and if we all accepted spanking, it would not have any negative outcomes.

We can reference it but there was a recent study that showed even in cultures where spanking is nearly 100% and is pretty much completely accepted, there are still more negative outcomes for those spanked than those not. So the culture might not be aware of problems, might not acknowledge them, might have Orwellian doublethink on them, but still there can be inherent problems with sexualized violence toward children, which is what I would class spanking as, especially as the children get older. Dissociation disorders of all types, as well as physical ailments such as compressed tailbone injuries and such, will occur regardless of social conditioning. Likewise, if you have a society where men have sex with boys and it is acceptable, you might have a very high HIV infection rate, and lifelong problems with sexual programing merging into marriage with females later, and etc that could have negative outcomes for the society regardless of how accepted a practice is. I thinkt here are some core human rights that cross cultures that we humans are just starting to figure out, that transcend culture if you care about the health and welfare of yourself and others.

2) “Now there were some teachers who openly ‘enjoyed’ it . She remembers a couple of male teachers who if asked to witness a hallway paddling by a female teacher, would offer to do it themselves .Those, male or female who ‘enjoyed’ it were often feared , and they really put heart and soul into the process.”

I would say they put their sexual enjoyment and perhaps sadism more openly into the process — and I would further say they were the ones who couldn’t or didn’t bother to hide it very well. They were certainly not the only ones who felt that way. Your point was good but I would just like to make it more specific that these are people who rather openly exploited Jackie and others like her sexually and sadistically, with “eyes wide shut” for the community — and with many in the community doing the same in church camps and home settings so “benefiting” as well. And in that high level paddling environment the well being of the students was not even a concern or an issue and had nothing to do with the hourly paddling rate that was a continual parade of trumped up trivial excuses, and little doubt from what I know that this environment created life-long psychological and sexual issues for a high percentage of staff and students – even though no-one could talk about these things in that community, or even acknowledge the dynamics, or the risks.

3) “Sharp, painful consequences of wrong decisions typified life for most people .Many folk were perennially near foreclosure, and there often is in these situations a fatalism- …”

This is often seen as the reason why African-Americans are more pro-spanking than whites — I think even now maybe by 2-1 ratio or so. It is a legacy of slavery and also the continuation of “slavery by any other name” into the twentieth century in the south where people were arrested for made-up crimes and essentially sent to prison work camps. A slave could be beaten, even to death, or sexually or sadistically for the master’s enjoyment, at any time, for any reason. In part they beat their children to prepare them to have a life-long servile mind set, and I’m also sure beat them out of their own sense of powerlessness.

A recent study showed the spanking rate in a household dramatically rises when the economy gets tougher — and likely people are already frustrated and explode easily at normal childhood behavior — so essentially in these cases normal children get spanked a lot because the parent is frustrated and worried about other things.

I would add a couple of dynamics that may also play in rural settings especially — I believe severe bare butt beatings and such that are sometimes dished out “on the farm” even today can induce the Stockholm syndrome into children — it is obviously not the situation most people who study the Stockholm Syndrome envision — and of course what drew people to the Stockholm Syndrome was the fact the people fell deeply in love with their abusers or someone violent toward them that they should not love — and we expect love in the home, and we are not surprised of a child loves a teacher, so if the threat of violence, or sexualized violence in particular for children, that we know now can induce the Stockholm Syndrome — occurs in those settings, you can effectively abuse a child and cause that child to cling to you and love you more than he or she might otherwise. I would say this is a sort of false love that is really a mental illness, but if it occurs in a setting that society expects it to occur, it is pretty well impossible to separate from healthy love.

Also, a weekly ritual bare butt spanking that in some rural families they let the rest of the family watch, sometimes friends and neighbors or the preacher or whoever is at the house, provides sexualized and exciting entertainment for all — even for the child victims who have their turn in the barrel it is perhaps terrifying, but is not boring — so the otherwise very boring life can be made exciting by essentially abusing and exploiting children as a sort of entertainment, much as was done with slaves in “the good old days.” I’ve interviewed a few people where I think that was a part of the driving force. I think these are accepted because the magic euphemism of the word “spanking” is employed, but I believe they have a lot of negative outcomes for all involved regardless of how accepted it is.

4) “…but also have sufficient close social reinforcement that makes anyone opposing the use of the paddle a social outcast. Again Springtown TX where it is reported the two girls who rightly reported the breaching of guidelines have , rather like the wild west been ‘run out of town’. The paddler who was not only unrepentant but ‘in your face ‘ about his actions , is the king for a day, and supported by the local pastors , the football team and the cheerleaders. No change then from sally Gaspherson all those years ago!”

Sorry to hear if they got run out of town — but yes, not only is this common in these “boss-hogg” towns, it is the norm, including death threats. If you have a job you may lose it, if you have a business it may get boycotted. Even if you have a pension the death threats and rocks through the window will have you moving to another community soon, as happened to one mom in MS.

I used to think, as you stated, that this was, as you said, the “close social reinforcement,” but more recently I think the “boss hogg” aspect of a very powerful set of a few “good old boys” really runs the town in every way happens in some areas. There are small towns where one man may own nearly every house in the town. There are towns where one or a very few men run the big farms, almost modern plantations, or very few businesses in them, and the principal of the paddling school is a relative, as is the police chief and the judge.

The slight and very sad difference from what you described is in these situations the average people, even in the small town, due to the media and the internet and such, may be about as enlightened on issues of child abuse and exploitation as anyone in any city or suburb, but the small power structure of the town of a very few men — the police chief, principal, pastor, farm or business owner(s) — closely related and/or close buddies — literally run everything, and often literally own everything. You have a situation not really different from a cult compound or one of those cities out west where the polygamists run the town and create the laws to match and etc — only in this case the small town cult leaders essentially enjoy paddling and perhaps enjoy the slave plantation mind set being beat into the children and teens, and by extension into their likewise helpless parents, that they are nothing and the leaders are everything. They can beat your kid daily if they want to, they are the police chief, principal, judge, etc. This dynamic is where the Cartoon “Americans Afraid to Speak” came from. When you have the slightest criticism of paddling, you by extension have criticized the principal, and the town will be forced to rally around him due to the web of good old boys that run everything and demand it.

5) “In short when paddling is accepted and universal there are very few bad apples in a very large barrel. Those that there are will probably largely gravitate to heavy paddling schools and military academies etc. Later as the barrel shrinks the rotten apples stay in it , and they are not amenable to reducing or abolishing the practice, and certainly not open to new evidence. This concentrates the issue geographically, socially, and administratively into similar types of districts. Therefore to achieve abolition in these areas requires legislation , it won’t just come by accretion, and legislation probably opposed by the educators and school boards – very difficult in a weak federalist system with limited central powers.

Very well said. To augment your statement even more, there have been several stories where British expats have migrated to small town Southern US and have engaged in one way or another getting generally single moms to give them access for bare-butt spanking teen girls. In one case the guy became a principal of a private school and created a scandal eventually in Arizona — the other case I heard of — never made the news — in rural TX — he was a “counselor” and his counseling included spanking — and he seemed to be working with the local small town cops and included photography that the cops might have been able to watch in turn. A teen girl — and in his case they were all teen girls but there may have been someone else doing the same with boys — would be caught for some minor infraction or another and the parent would get a referral card for this guy from the cop. He was eventually arrested but I don’t think charged or prosecuted and probably just moved on. As with the Ohio spanking cop who did the same thing with teen boys and was caught, when it gets to the court systems even in Ohio — when the subterfuge of spanking is part of the abuse, it is difficult for the community to deal with and the courts as well and often these cases start with a big press and flurry of charges, and they often end up with no charges or very, very little.

Also, as to the “few bad apples,” from the interviews I did of high-rate paddling schools — I came up with the “Principal Sade, and Principal Ape” idea in Southern Education to describe the dynamic — but there is generally one really gung-ho sadist who really revels in paddling and humiliating students and is always upping the ante even higher both sexually and physically, and there is usually the “Ape” assistant who might not have thought of doing things that way — but loves it and revels in it with him. I think we are all capable of being the Ape and perhaps even the Sade – lifetime sadism can be induced into a person just by doing something to others that hurts them, even when we rationalize it, and even when society accepts it. That is why the human psychology experiments at Stanfard were stopped within a couple of weeks and were deemed unethical to perform.

Peace,

Jeff
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Jenny
Jan 25, 2014#79
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Hi mommabear2

I believe that’s a significant factor but the girl’s perception of what the teacher believes is important too. As I attempted to show, exempting members of a group (however that group be selected) from a particular punishment implies that punishment is too severe for them. Whether or not the a girl considers detention worse than the slipper, giving her detention and slippering an equally boy implies the teacher believes she’s inferior. We should remember also that, in many schools, the “equivalent punishment” for a girl when an equally guilty boy was caned was nothing more than a “telling off” – if even that.

I mentioned an incident in a metalwork lesson, that I was involved in, here.

A good “telling off” and re-iteration of the reasons for not messing about in the workshops would, almost certainly, have been sufficient. It could, therefore, be said that the slippering was excessive. However, it emphasized how seriously he took safety in the workshops a drew a line under the incident. It also left him with the lesser “punishment” of a telling off for those who broke a rule through carelessness or negligence rather than wilfully.

The only non safety related rule I remember him enforcing (if enforce is even the right word) was that he asked us to tie long hair up in TD. His reason was that, if the HM saw us in his lesson with long hair left loose, she’d have a go at him then he’d have to have a go at us and he didn’t want either of those things. He even said that, as far as he was concerned, we could let it down again as soon as we left his class.

Now consider what might have happened in “Alan’s” (or another sexist) school, something that some would advocate. The boys would have been slippered and the girls some lesser (if any) punishment. What message or messages would that send? Perhaps one that girls are superior – “Rules are for the guidance of the wise and the obedience of fools”. We don’t have to obey the rules because we’re “wise”, or maybe invulnerable. Boys are just fools so they need to be forced to obey them.

Alternatively, perhaps it indicates girls’ safety isn’t considered important. We’re just inferior beings, it doesn’t really matter if we’re injured or killed by our own hands. Boys are considered superior, their safety is paramount and they must take safety rules seriously.

By treating us the same, our teacher showed he considered us equals. Our safety was no less important than that of the boys’. He didn’t give us any sense of superiority or invulnerability either. That would remain true even if he hadn’t slippered any of us.

The same would apply in any case where different punishments are applied depending on the sex of the offender – regardless of whether the alternative is seen as better or worse.

That’s correct. As the punishment for skipping detention was to have it substituted with a slippering (thereby implying that the slipper was considered more severe than a detention), the few times I got a detention I just didn’t go.

The CP I experienced was nothing like the sheer brutality some have described. If it had been, my views would be very different.

I resented detention (and lines) because of the time-wasting, mind-numbing, soul-destroying, boredom of it. We just had to sit quietly in a classroom doing nothing for 30 or 60 minutes. That wasn’t a punishment, it was drawn out torture. The worst of a slippering or caning is over in seconds, although there’s some residual discomfort for varying lengths of time after.

I also, now, disapprove of time wasting punishment like lines, detention and, especially, punishment essays because I believe they can have serious, long term adverse effects. If a child is told to write an essay as punishment, how does that differ from writing an essay as part of his/her coursework? When essay writing is seen as a punishment, it becomes something to be avoided. A child is not going to put much effort into writing an essay as part of his/her course if it’s perceived as a punishment. Writing lines is similar.

Detention is a punishment that involves additional attendance at school. How does that differ from usual attendance? Simply going to school can become seen as a punishment.

Time wasting punishments don’t necessarily only waste a child’s free time, they can also affect a child’s study time.

I was very good about doing homework. Quite early on, a teacher had explained why he set it – to help reinforce what had been taught in the lesson and to help us learn to find out for ourselves. In later years, when I said “I haven’t quite finished it.”, most teachers knew I’d probably already done more than was required but I still wanted to expand on it.

In my teens and slightly before, my “leisure reading” was magazines such as Practical Wireless and Practical Electronics or books on subjects such as General Relativity. I spent a lot of my free time engaged in educational activities, it was something I enjoyed. I would have really resented having to waste time writing lines when I could have been reading about Quantum Theory or some other interesting subject. It would have been even worse if an equally guilty boy had been “let off” with a few whacks of the slipper or cane.

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stoppaddling
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Jan 25, 2014#80
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

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Re: paddling schools have harsher alternates than non January 19 2014, 7:25 PM

Hi Jenny,

You have made many good comments — and as with the prof I’ll add a few thoughts.

I once as you do thought the problems of spanking and paddling could be fixed with some rules. Good luck getting the spankers to agree on any of them, however.

I’m opposed to paddling because of the many issues that are inherent and can never be fixed. In many cases they are due to human nature hard wired into all of us, and in some cases they are due to the unscientific and immeasurable nature of violence and performing that on children. There will always be many problems.

Getting rid of the school child abuser immunity act — and that is what these things really are as they indemnify things otherwise that would be child abuse if the parent did them — would be a good start. But big, big money was behind that and getting it changed will never occur. Too many people enjoy it and benefit, and as we’ve noted with the prof, there is no viable way for a parent of an injured child to seek redress in the courts.

The only possible way it would change is for a Federal court to rule it unconstitutional — which could happen — but even that is unlikely with the Federal courts in the area and even higher of a very pro-paddling tilt. The only way it might win would be if the courts decided they did not like being cut out of the process — in theory — why not just have the legislature cut the courts out of just about everything they wanted to? That is likely unconstitutional. They actually pretend to hear cases sometimes I think just to mask the fact that the due process has been eliminated and there is only one possible outcome to every trial given the laws.

You wrote 1) “Either schools that employ CP are harsher, in general, to their students or, by offering overly onerous or disproportionate alternatives, they seek out as many ways as they can to use CP. From what else you’ve said, I believe the latter is the more likely.”

Absolutely. Suspensions were very rare and only used for very serious things decades ago, whether in high-rate paddling schools or in schools that rarely or never paddled. The “In School Suspension” idea rose up in the 70s — originally the case was made that it would replace some of those rare suspensions and keep kids in school. Around the same time even Texas and small town communities began to complain about paddling — and a case in particular where a 16-year-old girl was forced to take a paddling but refused — it became a hot issue. The solution for those who enjoyed paddling — ok I’ll leave gender out but at the time nearly all school boards and paddlers of teens male — use the new ISS to blackmail students to “choose” the paddle. From that time ISS became the normal and increasingly draconian only alternate — and ironically the best students would be the most affected as they really cared about their GPAs and sports — so “spread your legs and bend over” or else lose days in ISS — which itself was also often sadistically designed in a overheated basement with no windows and students not allowed to get out of their seats for hours at a time. Add to that the loss of sports and cheerleading of they took ISS, but not if they “chose” paddling, with pressure from team mates to stay on.

2) I don’t believe a simple ban on CP is the answer. All I envisage would happen is that those schools would continue using overly severe, non-CP, methods so, later, they could argue than the ban on CP isn’t working – “just look at how many students we have to put in ISS/OSS now!”

The escalation of suspensions does happen in the short runs, or in schools where they ban the paddle but the area around them is still heavy hitting. I think this is the attempt, often successful — to get the paddle back by the paddlers who enjoy using it. Often also is the reason the one school bucked the local trend is that there was a scandal of a very severe, very medically harmful, and/or highly sexualized spanking that the school covered up, and as part of the solution to appeases the parents to keep it quiet banned paddling also. Then within a few years that student graduates and moves on and maybe a new principal and they concoct some reason to bring back their favorite toy.

In cases where there is a statewide ban, however, and the local school knows the paddle is not coming back, we don’t see any escalation of discipline — maybe a blip for a year or two. In states where paddling has been banned for many years, there is a much lower rate of discipline overall. Most schools in the long-time nonpaddling states don’t even have ISS, and many people don’t even know what you are talking about if you ask.

One problem driving out of school suspensions now is the “No Child Left Behind” act, which was based on the “Houston Miracle” which was a lie. The act said all schools had to have high achievement and only 1/2% drop out rate, “like Houston ISD did.” The law passed quickly and now all schools are on an ever tightening noose to meet these impossible standards, or else see their tax money flow to charter schools and such — which was obviously the real reason for the law. The Dallas news reported a couple of years after the law passed that the “Houston Miracle” of a 1/2% drop out rate was off by a factor of 80 times — the actual drop out rate in Houston at the time the law passed was 40%. 13,000 students going in every year, 8,000 coming out. Now ironically schools are seen as somehow trying to get poor performing, often minority, students out and off the roles so they can keep their woebegone “every child above average” that the “No Child Left Behind” law demands alive. That’s another issue, another example of big money payola driving a bill that is ultimately against schools and student’s interest, but practically speaking, will never be challenged or even significantly reported on by our press — which is yet another issue.

3) Asking parents what they think is a reasonable non-CP punishment for given offences might be a way of going about it.

Jenny — this is a basic problem. Start with, “how hard should the hit be?” Can you answer that? That is rather fundamental, but is also immeasurable and subjective. The most basic aspect of paddling that has the highest impact, literally, into physical abuse, is immeasurable, as is all violence, and there will always be injuries. The only way to keep it going is shield the paddlers from the common injuries, which is what they have done.

4) Also in a study that measured genital blood flow of people watching scenes of violence against women 30% of men were aroused, and 11% of women. Does that differ in people watching scenes of violence against men and, if so, how?

Good question. And would that be different than scenes of generalized violence against children?

What I would like to see is using that method to see how many people would be aroused watching scenes of school paddling at various ages and genders. Will never happen — scientifically easy, socially and politically impossible.

Peace,

Jeff
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 25, 2014#81
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Prof,

3) “Sharp, painful consequences of wrong decisions typified life for most people .Many folk were perennially near foreclosure, and there often is in these situations a fatalism- …”

Peace,

Jeff
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Guest
Jan 26, 2014#82
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jeff,

Interesting post . as I see it in the rural and outer suburban communities where ‘self contained and smug’ come to mind as descriptive adjectives, you actually have a very small elite ranging from the Pastors, and local judge, to the Sheriff and the local Rangers’ officer ( in TX)who controlthe town . When I fist got to know my friends local community I was introduced round the local country club , basically that’s who you NEED to know , and they are the opinion formers, movers and shakers. To an urbanite that seems very antiquated and reminiscent of ‘good ol’ boys’ , but beleive me its more than you find in some one horse towns.

I commented to Renee and co some while ago about in the 1980’s

Townes van Zandt represents the hidden south. I remember going to my first, and only TVZ concert in the 80’s it was in bar on definitely the wrong side of a one horse Texan town. I was glad I hadn’t gone alone , or I probably wouldn’t have gone inside. When you did half the audience probably wouldn’t have passed a illegal substance examination , and ironically the venue was right across from the sheriff and the bus station where the unused bays were covered with tumbleweed blowin’ in the hot breeze.The sheriff lumbered across and sat by the door for air : the room was foetid let alone humid . But then Townes hit or rather shambled on the stage. He fixed himself , tuned his sole guitar, and the audience went silent, as he wailed his way through a typical set of misery, depression and white trash lifestyle.

Unbelievable. Unforgettable .Unimaginable anywhere else in the world .

In ten years he was dead from junk, and ironically idolised like Kerouac , being covered by artists from Dylan to Steve Earle. I suppose an authentic James Taylor without the cash or fame .

That’s another type of town , as is this :

I found myself deposited at the nearest railhead to the town I was visiting. the train was early ( amazing for Amtrak) and it was early morning . My lift wasn’t due for a good while. As I alighted from the bedroom car , the Station manager ( well manager, guard, porter , booking clerk sweeper uppa all rolled into one ) suggested I leave my bags and get some breakfast down the main (only) street . He advised me very carefully where to eat and where to avoid. There are right and wrong choices everywhere.

In towns like this it isn’t difficult to see how a few ‘big”white’ men ( and they are misogynistic) rule the roost . Others keep to their positions as ‘trash’of one color or the other on either of the wrong sides of town.

I also will never forget one time not so long ago in the Delta. I’ve made very good friends with a black lady coach at one of the high Schools I’ve visited. I asked her out for dinner and booked at what I took to be the best ( really the only) restaurant in town. It was a steak bar. Well frankly I might have been in a time machine. Nice and warm out,with the fragrance of the evening , but deep freezing atmosphere within. I got the impression if it hadn’t been for my British accent I’d have been asked politely or otherwise to leave .It could have been 1960’s or even Porky’s ( to mention an American icon (not ). She laughed when we got outside and said ,’well at least they don’t call you Mr. Tibbs!’She said without me she would never have gone in there. But it shows that despite the ‘right gestures’ how little has changed since the Wallace era in the less developed areas of the South.

And these are often the hard paddling areas.

Anyway here’s the late Townes van Zandt

Waitin’ round to die. ( early version 1968, when he was still in one piece ) .

Just like a Tom Thum’s blues ( more as I heard him)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjypGcP2cwE

If you sugar the pill , wow! you make a million !!! James Taylor ……..Long ago and far away

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Wri9pMDajw
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 29, 2014#83
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jenny,

Sorry for filling in responses to some posts a bit late here.

I agree girls and boys should be treated equally at school for discipline. I also believe children should recieve equal discipline regardless of what their parent’s views of discipline and practices are. I also think any discipline should be truly measurable, truly equal, and reseach based — actually not so much on punishment at all as most non CP schools are.

Thus, I do not believe paddling is ever a good option, and without it most other punishments are nonviolent and nonsexual and can be equally applied, measured, and given to all students regardless of parental discipline attitudes and practice. In other words more just as all students can be treated the same.

Also since the violence of hitting is immeasurable it is easy to hit some harder than others with different hitters or the same hitter hitting differently. Hitting is inherently unjust.

Further even parents who try to “opt out” of CP where that is an option never really can do it — the hostile and sexualized violent atmosphere affects all students whether they actually get paddled or not, and many people have developed lifetime spanking fetishes just from being exposed to it, and especially if that exposure gets repeatedly reinforced.

Peace,

Jeff
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Jan 29, 2014#84
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
KK wrote: “You seem to see paddling as sexually charged. I suggest that most who use and receive the paddle in the school situation do not.”

Why don’t we videotape paddling and put it on You-Tube then? Would there be a difference between showing teens getting paddled, or sitting in a detention room, say for a CNN documentary?

Part of the problem when we talk about euphemisms like “spanking” or “CP is people are imagining very different scenarious sometimes.

Here we are talking school CP performed by non-parents on school aged children primarily, and spanking generally secondarily. With this thread discussing my site in particular the focus was most on the sexual aspect of men spanking teens and teen girls in particular, with the caveat that even many of the less obvious paddling gender and age matches also contain sexual aspects.

I think there is a escalating continuum where spanking goes from non-sexual for nearly all people to extremely sexual for nearly all people. Giving a toddler a few pats is non-sexual for nearly 100% of people. We could all watch videos of it for hours and some would complain it is not a good way to treat children and offer parenting opinions — but I doubt any arousal if we were, say, measurig genital blood flow.

Once school age hits the children might not think of it as sexual, but they become aware of an invasion of their underwear area on some level, and many develop lifetime spanking fetishes at the age of 5 or 6, even if the adult hitters have benign thoughts. Also they present a more sexual image to adult spankers, but still most people would not be very aroused spanking a young school aged child, if at all.

On it goes up through high school. Picture a man giving a bare-butt spanking to a teen girl. I would guess 100% of adults, whether aroused or not, would ses sexual imagery in that, whether they admit it or not, and a very high percentage might get aroused by it of both genders. Perhaps slightly reduced but still a very high sexual element for a man paddling a teen girl for a dress code violation with a short skirt, or called to the office in skimpy gym clothes.

And it is not just the overt sexuality — there is known sadism that can creep in where in historical examples and scientific study we are all susceptible to with a very short experience of deliberately hurting people.

Many, many people who proclaim spanking is not “sexual” to them admit nontheless to find it exciting, or to be aroused on some level. I don’t argue semantics of the word “sexual” and its meanings with them, or make too many distinctions — the fact they are aroused on some level means there is enjoyment in dishing out punishment, or watching it, that is, to me, unhealthy when forced or coerced upon unaware and unconsenting children, below the age of consent to even watch a movie of spanking, but yet forced to participate.

So it goes from near zero to near 100% — but at every point along the way everyone’s inner thoughts are hidden and we can never know which children and which adults are affected in what ways and to what degree. Society does not reward people for being open about it — particuarly if they have a job that involves working with children, and especially if it involves spanking them.

Even James Dobson acknowledged the problem once — but then his simple minded “cure” was that people that enjoy spanknig children should not do it.

Peace,

Jeff

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Jan 29, 2014#85
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Prof,

Yes — race remains a huge problem in the US in all regions. I used to think we were unique in that in the US, but I’ve learned over time that there is a great deal of bigotry and racism and “tribalism” for lack of a better word, all over the world.

We have a “peculiar” history in the US and the British colonies that led up to the US — I think perhaps unique, however, where a race of people was considered a slave class for many centuries. The attitudes that fostered this legal practice that still was in high swing as the US was born corrupted our religion, constitution, education, history, ultimately our unity — and the problems fester to this day as well, as many have never been adequately addressed even now.

Some of the problems you saw continue today.

In some ways it is started to get better — but as we have not really faced our past very well yet the problems are still buried and unacknowledged.

I think even the history of the paddle as it was invented for slavery, the common quotes of the times that many owners and overseers would rather paddle a slave than eat, or paddle a female slave than eat, has been heavily supressed, with many believe instead the propaganda of decades that Jesus created spanking and paddling and it is a “Christian practice” is yet another continuing legacy of slavery. I think it would be very difficult to paddle kids in schools if we actually taught the true history of the paddle and how it was invented and was used in slavery. That is the true reason over 90% of US paddling takes place in ten former Antebellum slave states, with the highest rates in the three states that were also the heaviest hitters of slaves — Mississippi, Arkansas, and Alabama — where the phrase “sold down the river” came from.

Ignorance is not bliss.

Peace,

Jeff
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Guest
Jan 29, 2014#86
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Jeff ,

On equality :

I think there is no doubt from conversations I’ve had that some paddlers make a significant distinction as to how they paddle , according to who its the recipient. Many will admit to only paddling a ‘good’ or ‘bright’ kid moderately , but a recidivist ……….some have said , if they are really scared I’ll ease up on them, but there are others who entirely reverse the process, after all if you enjoy seeing the ‘effects’ of a good paddling, you’ll get much more fun from paddling a kid whose scared.

I also remember the Principal of one small Texas High school telling me he determined WHETHER he paddles by what he thought the home experience would be . If kids came from a ‘modern’ ( non paddling ) home he thought just reading the riot act with the paddle on the desk was often sufficient, but the kid whose ‘dad runs a dirt farm single handed’ would be used to a whipping at home so the same would be necessary at school.

Totally arbitrary, in a way you couldn’t get away with in other more ‘public’ circumstances ….for example you couldn’t get away with ‘you’ve both been caught smoking . Its your first offence………you can have 2 days ISS and you as week!!!!! But Jenny’s right the oft EXCEPTION to this rule used to be overt gender discrimination, and if the OCR is anywhere near correct maybe race and disability as well.

On Filming.

The other day I was chasing down a particular paddling incident I’d been told about on the web.The deatails I’d been given were relatively non specific . The search which returned was a mixture of the serious ,and the usual porno, which I ignored, until I saw one reference which I followed up. One site linked a number of films which were supposedly security footage of Paddling.Now the site had the usual disclaimer, and I’ve no doubt at all ( because of the actors involved , several of whom are well known in the industry) that the videos were commercially produced, but it does raise an interesting question. Most of these sites claim to be realistic ( some are more than others) but they nearly always simulate what COULD be genuine situations , even if enacted without much realism. They showed classroom, hallway and ‘principal’s office’ re enactments, some were deliberately b&w and grainy ………and all appeared to be videos of a cctv monitor.

My only point is the porn industry doesn’t produce items for which there isn’t a latent demand.
Last edited by larry1951 on 2:07 PM – Jan 29, 2014, edited 1 time in total.
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stoppaddling
29
Jan 29, 2014#87
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Prof,

I may have inadvertantly helped create the paddle “spy cam” porn — one of the actors was on a site where my claims on nopaddle were discussed and that same porno company produced those video clips to show what it might look like. Actually I think some of the interviews have helped influence a few such companies slightly. But very often they get direct interviews from the models themselves.

One company is located in a nearly non-padding state, yet the majority of its spanking and paddling models migrate to it from Texas, where most of them were spanked and paddled. Hence the cartoon on nopaddle that we are preparing the young women for future work with the paddle lessons. (and for all of the gender equality folks who keep insisting everything is equal and the same, although there are all combinations of gender and age and spanking fetish material, I would say female models recieving the spanking and paddling, with both male and female spankers, is well over 80% of the material — and is probably over 90%.

I have a policy of never giving out any porn links but it is the same company that also has real stories of real paddlings, including news accounts, apparently mixed in with paddle erotica.

As to the inequality I’ve heard from many, but also directly from two people I directly know — one in Michigan decades ago and one in TN within the past decade where a Jock or Jock-type male is given very light swats, and the principal joked with him at the time, and the two smaller (and more feminine) males were given very hard paddlings. The TN case was where a cheerleader was paddled very hard but her large football brother got only ceremonial taps and again joking around. One the other hand a man in Alabama — and a pro-spanker and paddler — told me, I guess to show how it was worse in the old days and thus ok today or something — that he had a coach who had a paddle with a Texas star embossed on it — and he would give a very hard swat — and the male athlete would have to lower their pants and show the star on their bare butt to the coach.

Great healthy stuff for kids, but certainly immeasurable in so many ways and a “swat” is not a “swat” is not a “swat.”

Also one study showed that even when people try their best to be uniform and think they are hitting the same, they tend to increase the speed –with the impact energy going up squared per K+1/2 * MVV as we discussed earlier, over time without realizing it.

Violence and its effects are unscientific, not research based, known to cause many hidden problems, and are immeasurable, which make it unjust inherently, before we even consider the sadism and masochism people so easily develop and which is very widespread in US society — I suspect much more so in high rate spanking and paddling areas.

Peace,

Jeff

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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jan 30, 2014#88
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hello Prof.n,

You said above:

Yes, you’ve indicated before that you are familiar with that particular site. So am I. I think you’ll find that ‘a number of films’ is an exaggeration. Various animated gifs clipped from one video. Although I suppose one is a number, though nobody would guess it was the one involved from the way you’ve phrased it!

Further a very old video, 2002 it would appear. The producer refers to it as being in the past and ‘experimental’ in a 2008 blog entry. His audience then seemed generally to agree that such videos were a waste of time, and I don’t believe they’ve done any more. After all, as critics of the doomed to failure genre said collectively in 2008, why mess about with silly camera angles and suchlike when you can get right in there with the action by filming normally.</div>
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Guest
Jan 30, 2014#89
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Another Lurker,

Wouldn’t disagree with the tenor of your post, but if you check the blacklists of the production company, not just the blog , I think you will find at least five or six such ‘set ups’. A couple are in very grainy quality.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Jan 30, 2014#90
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hello Prof.n,

No, I fear I didn’t check the back lists. My apologies for doubting your assessment. I took the Producer’s comments as setting out the situation. I take it from your observation that there are various items in the back lists which actually specify that they imitate security videos.

It would however appear that we both agree that the trend was not pursued, presumably because there was no demand. Not surprising I suppose, since according to Mr Charles by now the entire US must be knee-deep in the real thing.</div>
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stoppaddling
29
Feb 01, 2014#91
Hi,

Again, I’m new and I’m wasn’t sure if this had been posted before.

I thought all of you might be interested, if it hadn’t been posted.

I’m sorry if it’s not useful.

Will

http://www.nopaddle.com/frames.asp

Click to expand…
Hi Lurker and Prof,

I think one issue with those early pretend spy cam shots is the company made them as though they were using $99 security system cameras from 2002, and that from an angle over top of the paddlling. Around the same time Biloxi Schools installed over 500 internet linked high resulution spy cameras that could be individually accessed by private code given out to “who?” — all they said was, “not the parents.”

As I mentioned a lady I know was dating a man who installed those kind of systems in TX schools and she was upset seeing where some of them went as they could only be for upskirt shots in her mind. I don’t think she say everything — but suffice it to say they were not cheap, grainy cameras and the angles were not necessarily the same as a homeowner might place two or three cameras to catch a burgler.

Also the known hundreds of internet linked high resolution cameras in schools does not dismiss a paddler bringing his own camera in, or others.

The cameras are so tiny and easy to hide that even the principal could be spied upon and not know it — as was the case in one scandal where a principal made out with a secretary or something on a spy camera and got fired.

As far as the videos not coming out — we know there are perhaps hundreds of thousands of videos from these cameras recording schools every day and pretty much none of them “comes out” exept to those that have the passwords to view them — with the very rare exception of a columbine school shooting or something, and then only a few relevant seconds of clips from a few relevant cameras are ever shown.

We can infer that many paddlings are recorded in this fashion — but the quesiton is how many, who has access, etc., and to that, we do not know and cannot find out. I would just point out the tech is everywhere in many schools, let alone a personal camera, and paddling is considered not to be legal child porn in any of them, in many the specific right to video without student’s or parent’s knowledge or permission is stated. Is there interest in recording paddling? You be the judge.

At the very least it is safe to say that the two or three people in the paddle office may not represent every “witness.” There could be hundreds.

Peace,

Jeff
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Apr 10, 2020#92
Since the dumbing down of search engines to suit a largely computer illiterate public I seldom find what I’m actually looking for these days. However I quite often find what I’m not looking for, and such a discovery tonight is that the hallway paddling picture, once much beloved of US anti-SCP sites, that I was able to demonstrate as a fake here in this thread back in September 2013 (discussion continues for the rest of the page following that post) has once again been pressed into service by US anti-SCP campaigners.

Here it is on a Google search page, fronting up a YouTube video on the reintroduction of the paddle in Texas school districts.

I’m basically against SCP now, but I wouldn’t describe myself as a campaigner. If I was and I wanted an anti-SCP picture for my campaigns I wouldn’t use an obvious fake. I’d look for something like the picture here, originally posted by Texasrules, which in all probability shows a genuine paddling, and one where the paddler appears to be failing to ensure that the young lady is properly, securely and safely positioned for punishment and also disturbing her clothing in an irregular and unsuitable manner!
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Apr 12, 2020#93
An argument can be made that Texas will be the last state to ban spanking in school just by the sheer number of districts that permit the practice. Austin is the state Capitol where representatives from those districts have a lot to do with whT will happen statewide.

What makes this school such an outlier is the number of instances are so high in comparison to the number of students receiving corporal punishment. Rounding things off is that 100 of the 200 students were paddled with 500 spankings so about 35 girls and 65 boys were spanked. W

Students without disabilities who received corporal punishment: 90 (male: 60, female: 30) Hispanic: 70 (male: 44, female: 26) Black: 4 (male: 2, female: 2) White: 16 (male: 14, female: 2) Limited English Proficiency (LEP): 7 (male: 5, female: 2) Instances of corporal punishment (Students with disabilities): 84

Students with disabilities who received corporal punishment: 14 (male: 12, female: 2) Hispanic: 7 (male: 5, female: 2) Black: 5 (all male) White: 2 (all male) Limited English Proficiency (LEP): 4 (male: 2, female: 2) Section 504: 7 (male: 5, female: 2)

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/school/floydad … ol-tx.html

https://projects.propublica.org/miseduc … 1944001802

Two thirds of the boys and one third of the girls were paddled.

https://ocrdata.ed.gov/Page?t=s&eid=232 … 8&pid=2555

https://ocrdata.ed.gov/Page?t=s&eid=232 … 8&pid=2342
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May 07, 2020#94
Rison High School in Arkansas is the most like Enterprise, Alabama in terms of frequency recently abolished corporal punishment.

http://www.clevelandcountyherald.com/20 … unishment/

Scroll to bottom for the reason. Why a quarter of the girls and two thirds of the boys must be rejoicing at Rison High School though the faculty may not be.

http://adecm.arkansas.gov/Attachments/M … 093847.pdf

https://ocrdata.ed.gov/Page?t=s&eid=523 … 8&pid=2342

Rison High School went from the most paddled students in their state to none. These young ladies have reason to be happy even if they lose the game. It bothers him more than it bothers them. He sounds intellectually disabled.

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Aug 02, 2020#95
https://ask.fm/CoreyLynn21/answers/104812900788

I have noticed something that many of these girls have in common. So many are athletes. Corey Lynn Tate not only played second base in softball she was the captain of her team.

They must have gone through a rough patch and have gone on to translate their early successes in school leads to further successes. They bring pride to their school and in themselves.

The take it all in stride and don’t see themselves as anything unusual. It is not about geography but their zip code doesn’t define.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/user/@coreytate21
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Appropriate Corporal Punishment to Stop Young People Smoking.

Old teachers

oldest punished or given school detention

Multiple days of student paddlings at high school – illustrated report

SCP regulations or is one not so?

naughty girls

Historical recollections

Birthday Spanking From Your Principal?

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