1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Jul 18, 2010#2
I’m focussing the archives on the debate and not the incideces in this thread. Do the UK or Australia have archival availability of newspaers like the New York Times. Key search words have payed off. You don’t use paddling or caning as much as whipping and spanking for older materials. I have discovered the search word ROD coming up with interesting materials. The night is still young I hope to ferret some interesting links.
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StevefromSE5
Jul 18, 2010#3
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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AW
Thanks again-notice the most interesting point in both debates?
All about BOYS-girls not even mentioned. Bet Jenny would have had something to say about that!
Steve
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JennyBr
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Jul 20, 2010#4
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi StevefromSE5
<div style=”margin-left:30px;font-style:italic;”>>Thanks again-notice the most interesting point in both debates?
All about BOYS-girls not even mentioned. Bet Jenny would have had something to say about that!</div>
As I’ve said many times before, in many schools girls were allowed to do as they wished without fear of punishment. At least partly due to this, there was little chance of their making anything of their lives either.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Jul 21, 2010#5
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The Rod cows the spirit of a proud boy. Another good reason 1883?
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Jul 21, 2010#6
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Pupils and teachers up in arms over (you’ll never guess why) to strike against CP.
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Jul 21, 2010#7
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Well written “folksy” account of flogging substitutes. Girls seem to be very well behaved in 1904. Teaching seemed like so much fun. What happened?
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Jul 24, 2010#8
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Praxis.
http://carmarthenshirehistorian.org/cgi … s1800_1870
Llewelyn Bevan says that Mr. Hancock was a good musician and proficient in Latin. The discipline at this school was unusually lax. The pupils would dare to escape out of the window before the teacher would arrive for the Latin class. In most places this would not be attempted; discipline was strict, somtetimes harsh. When David Adams went to the Bryn in January 1867, he had no recourse to corporal punishment, but he soon changed his mind. The Llwynhendy master lost some of his children to the Bryn in 1864, because of strictness, and many left Llanelli School on 11 April 1864 for the same reason. Sometimes the children were “severely beaten,” and there were examples of a parent asking a teacher to flog his child. It is refreshing to note that one of the regulating principles of the Llanelli school was that “the moral nature of the pupils was not to be blunted by undue corporal punishment.” A real attempt was made to adhere to this principle, and for a while corporal punishment was abandoned. The children, however, took advantage of this, and the entry for 28 November 1866 reads: “Made an example of them.”
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Oct 22, 2010#9
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Some of the very issues discuss here are discussed in Glasgow March 19, 1935. A teacher (temper) should have self control whilst (first time I used this British) while teaching self control to students.
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KKxyz
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Oct 22, 2010#10
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Spanking by electricity
A way of over coming objections to men spanking women?
New York Times Feb. 14, 1898
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holyfamilypenguin
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Oct 23, 2010#11
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Ultimate Spanking Devices and Corporal Punishment Machines
Boy how things have changed. Google the above address.
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Another_Lurker
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Oct 23, 2010#12
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi KK. You said above of the spanking chair for recalcitrant young ladies featured in the 1897 NY Times article:
<div style=”margin-left:40px;font-style:italic;”>Spanking by electricity
A way of over coming objections to men spanking women?</div>
Well, it might have been if it hadn’t been a hoax. It was first identified as a hoax by our ever industrious fellow contributor American Way in his initial post in this thread. Sadly the Google Books link he gave to the story of the hoax no longer works, at least not in the UK. However this link will still reveal enough information to indicate the nature of the hoax.
Briefly (having read the full book link when it was available) a delegate to the Annual Congress of Correction of the American Correctional Association put a reference to an electric spanking chair into his presentation as a joke. Still in jocular mode it was subsequently suggested as a suitable acquisition for the Denver Industrial School For Girls, which at the time was known to be having a difficult time managing its inmates. The press, as they are wont to do, picked up the story and ran a great deal further with it than was warranted, hence the New York Times article.
There was indeed a ‘Warden Hoyt’, but he was warden of the Colorado State Prison at the time and I doubt he had many young ladies amongst his inmates there!
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KKxyz
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Oct 23, 2010#13
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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A hoax perpetrated by the NYT or a joke not recognized as such? In any event, the joke suggests there was an issue at the time of how to deal with women.
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Another_Lurker
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Oct 23, 2010#14
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi KK. You said of the NYT electric paddling chair item:
The logical answer is the latter. However it may well have been the former, as I have to say that many of the old NYT items linked here give me the impression that the paper had some comedians on its staff at the time! Of course that may merely be the result of viewing them from a modern perspective, the past being most definitely another place, which we shouldn’t judge by our standards.
And you also said:
There’s always an issue of how to deal with women, and not just in those areas where an electric spanking chair might come in handy!
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KKxyz
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Oct 23, 2010#15
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Newspapers don’t like blank space and need a supply of human interest and other bits and pieces of soft news to fill the gaps. Even the NYT is not immune.
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JennyBr
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Oct 24, 2010#16
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi Another_Lurker
Are you trying to wind someone up?
This story reminds of the Dihydrogen Monoxide scare.
You may be aware of an earlier method of resolving that issue, before the use of electricity became practical, involving a chair and a large quantity of the said noxious substance.
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Another_Lurker
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Oct 24, 2010#17
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi Jenny. What! Still awake and on the web at a time like 02:55! You really should be ashamed of yourself!
You said of my reference to the ever present difficulties in dealing with women, even in those circumstances where an electric spanking chair is not appropriate:
Now would I dare?
Your reference to Dihydrogen Monoxide and link to the DHMO homepage is a timely one. Even today many people are not aware of how dangerous this all pervading chemical can be!
I am familiar with the historical method of resolving the issue of dealing with women that you mention. In view of the use of Dihydrogen Monoxide which was involved it is just as well that they hadn’t invented electricity and thus couldn’t electrify the seating device used in that process!
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JennyBr
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Oct 26, 2010#18
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Hi Another_Lurker
You said:
You know me, I’m shameless Anyway, 02:55 isn’t as bad as 03:26.
Frightening, isn’t it? Yet, when I was a girl, every schoolboy (and quite a few schoolgirls) knew to avoid it – especially when mixed with Sodium salts of long chain carboxylic acids such as Sodium Octodecanoate.
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Another_Lurker
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Oct 26, 2010#19
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi Jenny. You said of Dihydrogen Monoxide:
Yes indeed, it is a scandal of childcare that children were ever exposed to such a dangerous combination of noxious chemicals. Even now, many years later in my 60s, I remember the dreadful suffering that ensued when the resulting solution got into one’s mouth or eyes!
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holyfamilypenguin
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Dec 17, 2010#20
I’m focussing the archives on the debate and not the incideces in this thread. Do the UK or Australia have archival availability of newspaers like the New York Times. Key search words have payed off. You don’t use paddling or caning as much as whipping and spanking for older materials. I have discovered the search word ROD coming up with interesting materials. The night is still young I hope to ferret some interesting links.
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I like the metaphorical language in this article. It does make a case against parental opting.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Apr 12, 2011#21
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I have a classmate laid off from a large company who for the last two years waits for call to sub to supplement his wife’s income as a teacher. He complains constantly about the behavior of his high school chargers especially the way the girls dress. They have a daughter and a son ten years older and I think that is where he sets his bar both older than mine. Happily ours are out of their nest but one still sleeps in his room and still doesn’t do his chores. Make them back there own school loans I tell them. Substitutes are often walked upon but that is something that is not altogether beyond control if the administration backs them.
There is something to be said for a happy medium between the terrorism of the Nuns and the laxity of today’s school. I must say my classmate was a goody two shoes and perhaps has forgotten some of the uglier parts of his Catholic education from the students who did not curry favor. I would rather be known as a cut up than a suck up; I was neither and still paid the price. I previously referred to him as the one I said I would rather be hit than molested. He referred to the same Nun. He rebuffed her advances as an eight grader. My comment was not well received by his school teacher wife. She said that my accounts corroborated her husband’s and lends more credence to his memories.
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Oct 29, 2011#22
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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A strongly held POV for corporal punishment and against its critics. He would be put in the loony bin now and thankfully (IMHO) the stout birch rod into the garbage bin. The language of precocious criminals mirrors the Alabama corporal punishment incident reports referring to students as perpetrators/offenders for the all encompassing disruptive or worse still defiance such as chewing gums, elastics, etc., that cannot go un-retaliated. N.B. the CP (five swat bruises)/suspension conundrums are akin to the (six stroke bleeding)/incarceration. Understandably, there wasn’t much room for counseling then as there is now. But is it offered in schools that give a nod and a wink or look the other way today?
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bi … 10219.2.12
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Nov 01, 2011#23
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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At the turn of the century there was quite a controversy in many parts of the world concerning the flogging of girls. This is well documented in New Zealand through the excellent resource of papers past.
Barbaric Methods WCTU of Ta Oranga.
November 29 1907
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December 5, 2007
An Interjection and reply
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Defense March 25, 1908
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Protests Against Exoneration (Previous Posted)
April 18, 1908
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Off Topic Prior Amusing Incident. Bear with me for citing collateral products of my research.
November 7, 1908
Excited Woman
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Te Oranga Home Now Girl’s Training Centre, Burwoood Christchurch
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Nov 01, 2011#24
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Abolition of corporal punishment and suffragists went hand in hand a century ago. July 31, 1905 renowned Mrs. Clarence Mackay enters race.
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August 3, 1905 New York Socialite parlays her fame and beauty to get her way as an “uncompromising non-spankists”. Mrs Mackay Elected. Quite an election indeed.
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August 16, 2006 Mrs Mackay Objects to SCP
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Mrs Mackay is cause de celebrate for the town’s cane aversive students who love her.
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September 5, 1906
Easy Spanking Cause Won by Mrs. Mackay.
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The very lovely “uncompromising nonspankists”, suffragists Katherine Duer soon to be ex of Clarence Mackay.
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Nov 14, 2011#25
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The corporal punishment debate in The Age newspaper 1973 Melbourne may be of interests to some from a historical glimpse of usage of corporal punishment?
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Nov 21, 2011#26
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I had previously referenced Professor Frank M. McMurray prescient rules governing school corporal punishment.
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The fact that he would establish schools spaced throughout New York for spanking escaped my attention.
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Jan 19, 2012#27
I like the metaphorical language in this article. It does make a case against parental opting.
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Ratio of male and female grammar school recipients of corporal punishment are an eye opener in this 19th century study. Compare this to the OCR of paddling in the USA and is nothing in comparison. Were girls better behaved or were less asked of them? I think it is the former for the definition of acting lady like seemed burdensome. Human nature being human nature.
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Jan 28, 2012#28
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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In light of the use of the words, reasonable chastisement, I did not think it altogether inappropriate to take a closer look at the evolution of those words, in light of their entrance into the parlance of these debates surrounding these issues both domestically and scholastically.
Lord Chief Justice Cockburn 1860.
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Cockburn outrage: May 26, 1868
A terrible case of cruelty to a child was tried the other day at Leeds, before Lord Chief -justice Cockburn. A woman, by the consent of his father and mother, obtained possession of her nephew, and subjected him to cruelties too terrible to relate. The poor child gave his evidence in the clearest manner, and, as it was borne out by various independent witnesses, the jury would do no other than convict the prisoner, and the judge sentenced her to 15 years’ penal servitude. The only pity is, that our humanitarian notions forbid such a wretch being whipped, for, as the judge remarked, all words seemed thrown awajr on her. Her ” innate lust of cruelty” seems almost to demand some such bodily punishment. If flogging is good for the back of a garotter for nearly strangling an able bodied man, who at least would give the ruffian what lie deserved if only he had the chance, surely some corporal punishment is due to a woman (herself a mother) who deliberately tortures a poor weak child who can offer no resistance. lam afraid, however, that any one who proposed this, in enlightened England, would be forthwith dubbed a Haynau, or at least a Butler.
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His Honor Mr. Justice Williams.
Home Corporal Punishment. Alexander and Carrie Fleming.
March 27, 1885
Carrie Trial.
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March 28, 1885
Alexander Trial
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Flemings Outcome.
April 10, 1885
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School Corporal Punishment.
Here is an example of the word reasonable, more apropos in relevance to this estimable Forum, within the scholastic context.
June 25, 1886.
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Jan 30, 2012#29
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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One of the more thorough and informative debates on the pro/con of school corporal punishment. I found page 69 most interesting.
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Feb 02, 2012#30
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Boys at Home, Discipline, masculinity, and the “Boy-Problem” in Nineteenth Century American Literature. 2009. Ken Perille. Chapter 2 argues that debates about corporal punishment are crucial sources for the cultures ideas about gender difference and pedagogical practice. This may make Jenny cringe.
http://utpress.org/bookdetail-2/?jobno=T01256
Introduction available UK and USA:
http://core.ecu.edu/ENGL/parillek/BAHintro.pdf
Google accessible USA and maybe elsewhere.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Feb 03, 2012#31
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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William Charles Bagley was a prominent anti-school corporal punishment representative in the early 20th century. This has been referenced before but not the video. Progressive Education 1940’s.
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Here arev some historical artifacts and story.
1907 History.
Country School by Clifton Johnson
http://www.archive.org/details/countryschool00john
Schools Between 1830 to 1860
http://www.kellscraft.com/CountrySchool … ool03.html
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Feb 11, 2012#32
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Winnipeg 1882:
White kid gloves for teachers who refrained from strapping through the end of a term? Six teachers qualified for a pair like the reward for a judge in absence of a criminal docket. They do admit there are two sides to the issue.
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Feb 20, 2012#33
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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While stories abound in books about 19th century school corporal punishment this one distinguishes itself by its early date and publication in the newspapers. No doubt the early part of the nineteenth century there would be the use of the switch but case reaching the courts due to abuse wold reach the news. I am sure when more newspapers of that era are made available there would be more written. The judge showed Solomonic wisdom.
February 14 1846
While stories abound in books about 19th century school corporal punishment this one distinguishes itself by its early date and publication in the newspapers. No doubt the early part of the nineteenth century there would be the use of the switch but case reaching the courts due to abuse wold reach the news. The judge showed Solomonic wisdom.
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Mar 09, 2012#34
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1910. A tip of the proverbial hat is in order for their strength of conviction, clarity of thought and ability to communicate within the rules of writing. Imagine how better they would be if I could have them as my students?
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Mar 11, 2012#35
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I liked the graphic and the range of opinion of people in responsibility. I saw this but I’m not sure if I posted it at that time.
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Mar 13, 2012#36
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Argus 1922. Can you imagine resisting a teacher? A girl joining in the fray to boot. Those country kids can be a handful. Like our girls from Iowa and not our Southern Belles. The raising of the school age brought another dimension the pedagogues had to consider.
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Mar 24, 2012#37
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The pendulum swings both ways. Today’s popular theories may seem as out of fashion as these in 1905 in less than 107 years. Today’s self-proclaimed wizards should not grow too content. There may be a kernel of truth in these insights that are dismissed in a cursory manner. Politically correct isn’t always correct. The less persuasive some are the more coercive they become.
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Apr 09, 2012#38
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Thoughts on school corporal punishment. Consider the arrogance of those who pontificate without any sense of history. Are they that needy to think they are the only ones who have walked this planet so are the only ones worth listening to? KK already listed schools that used corporal punishment by dates and regions in the USA so some of this data might seem old hat but it is still worth perusing and pursuing. There are contemporary similarities in those trajectories also worth considering.
On many occasions I have share with this estimable Forum how I judged the moods of the nuns by the moons and thy use to call me a lunatic.
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Jun 05, 2012#39
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Here is a rather extensive coverage of the issue of school corporal punishment 1919 from Australia.
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Corporal Punishment of Girls. It was not the desire of any teacher that corporal punishment should be inflicted generally, but there were certain girls who had to be punished in some way, and he thought the manner of that punishment should be left to the conference. There were three stages in the life of the girl which required three different forms of treatment. There must be some power to deal with girls who made themselves nuisances, for one or two undisciplined girls in a class would disturb the ‘whole’ influence of a school. In a mixed school, a male teacher with many years’ experience was not allowed to use his discretion in the matter, and the girl had to be handed over to the headmistress, which was degrading to her, and was a responsibility the man.
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Jun 06, 2012#40
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1906 the boy versus girl attitudes toward the corporal punishment of girls versus boys is so different from todays. The article gives the reader a flavor of the opinions that people had toward school as well as domestic corporal punishment. The fighting, the black eye and the stubbed toe alone made the story appealing from my POV.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Jun 07, 2012#41
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Famed Dr Henry Suzzallo theory of school self government.
Humble beginnings.
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Principal Suzzalo Arrested By Pupils with Great Ideas of Self Government.
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With unparalleled succeses.
http://www.lib.washington.edu/suzzallo/suzzhistorytour
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Jul 22, 2012#42
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Dr R B Norman pedagogue and paddler and Art Collector. Pray But Keep Your Powder Drive.
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Aug 14, 2012#43
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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American Annals of Education, Volume 5 1835
My punishments were must of them summary. Sometimes there was a formal feruling or flogging, but this was rare. It took up too much time. I knew of a shorter method. This was to carry a rule under my arm, and when I discovered a transgressor, to strike him across the head with the rule. As to endangering the brain, I never thought of that. Indeed I scarcely knew there were brains in the cranium. I was only eighteen years of age; and as inexperienced in human nature, as you can possibly conceive.
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Oct 27, 2012#44
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1929 life in Tennessee. Spare the rod works both ways.
The student teacher switch.
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Oct 30, 2012#45
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Dr Milton E Blanchard became the president of the California Teach Association in the beginning of the twentieth century. He wasn’t afraid of sparing the rod. The Curious Case of Dr M. E. Blanchard.
February 19, 1902
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April 10, 1902
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May 30, 1902
Annie Mathieson,a former pupil of Miss Perry, testified in behalf of Miss Perry that she had alwayscounseled her pupils to be good. On one occasion after she was superseded by Miss Peckham a pupil threatened to roll marbles across the floor and put a mouse in Miss Peckham’s desk. Miss Perry advised against such conduct.
Second column from the right.
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June 5, 1902. Last column exonerated. Mrs Perry testimony was impeached.
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Not the last heard of him.
June 27, 1905.
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Even exonerated your past follows you.
January 14, 1906
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Nov 28, 2012#46
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History of the burgh and parish schools of Scotland, Volume 1 By James Grant 1876
http://archive.org/details/historyburghand00grangoog
Search Corporal Punishment.
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Jan 01, 2013#47
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SPANKING A LOST ART.
What caught my attention was it was October 16, 1890. A rather early debate to be to be given such prominence.
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Jan 25, 2013#48
1929 life in Tennessee. Spare the rod works both ways.
The student teacher switch.
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Hickory Tea 1921. Mattie Bell Oates a 23 year old schoolmarm whipped a daughter of a school trustee and escaped an assault charge. With 51 students, as in my catholic schooldays, there seem to be little likelihood that she would be convicted by a jury of her peers for serving “hickory tea”. Whether it was the sign of the times but it seemed that most cases that reached the courts were male teachers corporally punishing girls and to a lesser extent women teachers punishing girls. It would seem that the same punishment for boys by either gender did not make the news. Double standard I suppose.
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May she rest in peace.
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Hickory Tea. 2010.
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Feb 15, 2013#49
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The standards of whether SCP is appropriate or not has changed by place and time with ups and downs but of late it is down and down. In fewer places and lesser and lesser in time now.
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Feb 20, 2013#50
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Looking back. Schoolboy revolt 1911.
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Northern Star (Lismore), NSW, September 21, 1911
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holyfamilypenguin
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Feb 23, 2013#51
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With the recent discussion about the averse effect of removing the paddle from the USA, I think it might be worthwhile to read what was discussed in the British Columbia after the strap abolition. Would things be any different forty years late? Too many other factors would have to be considered.
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Another_Lurker
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Feb 23, 2013#52
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi American Way,
A fascinating item, and one which will doubtless be of interest to HH in the unlikely event that he is not already aware of it.</div>
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HH2012
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Feb 23, 2013#53
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Feb 24, 2013#54
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Yes, quite right <strong>prof.n </strong>on your observations. All of the actual data I analysed here were from schools who used SCP in the manner I would have envisaged: judiciously and sparingly (in the order of 25 incidents/year per 1,000 pupils). Thus, it was only for very serious offences and usually after repeated warnings (which was a common notation in the punishment book). I certainly agree that using it more than that and for minor issues … it not only loses it’s effectiveness but can introduce a myriad of unintended harm as well.
In those situations, the efficacy based on recidivism analysis was remarkably good. Looking along the distribution curve, there was usually a small minority of the population (0.3%) who “required” repeated strappings, and comprised a full one-sixth of all SCP incidents. This, alone, should have tipped off any observant educator that there was an overriding issue with such a child, which cause needed to be isolated and rectified (perhaps abusive, uncaring, or alcoholic parents, unidentified learning disability, etc…).
Something I wanted to respond to <strong>Renee</strong>, and forgot to. O.S.S. was the common replacement for serious offences (and not so serious as well?). I have seen individual school statistics where, immediately following SCP bans, up to 25% of the entire student enrollment has been suspended during the school year. It was “determined” (not by me) that this was effective and restored school discipline closer to former levels … but at what cost (to the child’s welfare) I must wonder?
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Feb 24, 2013#55
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Just to clarify “<em>In those situations, the efficacy based on recidivism analysis was remarkably good</em>”. For example, I analysed a typical elementary CP book in my “<em>Canadian Regulation School Strap</em>” book, and this was so typical of what I found. Specifically to this comment, average CP incidents were 25.9/year over a 19 school-year span. The school had ave enrollment of approx. 1,000 pupils (2.6% incident rate) and most importantly, 61% of strapped pupils were only strapped once in their entire school career, 75% twice of less, and 85% thrice or less, so for the bulk of the pupils, the fear/respect/deterrence, or whatever you want to call it, seemed to be effective from this standpoint. I have no way to measure the deterrent effect on other pupils who were not strapped as there is no baseline with which to compare how they would have behaved if it never existed. However, that conclusion can be drawn by how their behaviour changed once they knew all SCP was banned.
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Oliver_Sydney
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Feb 24, 2013#56
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Hi HH
Thank you for your very interesting statistics. Some of them contrast quite strongly with my observations when at school in the 1960s and with what I understand from teachers.
I have seen individual school statistics where, immediately following SCP bans, up to 25% of the entire student enrollment has been suspended during the school year.
Do I take it these were high schools ? What were the suspension figures in the final year of SCP ?
It certainly seems to indicate stunning levels of incompetence by those in power unless we are talking of schools in gang dominated inner cities.
In those situations, the efficacy based on recidivism analysis was remarkably good. Looking along the distribution curve, there was usually a small minority of the population (0.3%) who “required” repeated strappings, and comprised a full one-sixth of all SCP incidents.
In contrast the 0.3% you quote here appears to be an incredibly low figure, much lower than my observations or understanding from teachers. It also seems to conflict with the 15% (a much more believable figure) of elementary school students in your following post who received 4 or more strappings in the very low CP environment you outline (25 incidents/year per 1,000 pupils).
Prof.N made the following comment:
However those that created the substantial minority on whom the vast majority of corporal punishment was used , obviously by their recidivist tendencies were immune to its ‘curative properties’. These children need special help , and if they were receiving repeat corporal discipline, obviously were not getting it.
This was very much my observation. In the 1960s these children were caned repeatedly and most left school at 15.
As far as I can see in the 2000s there are many approaches which are tried. However they remain a huge problem for teachers – I have heard some graphic descriptions of classroom events.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Feb 24, 2013#57
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In light of some of the considerations being made in today’s estimable Forum it is interesting to note this opinon expressed in 1955 with reference to strapping. Look where we are almost 60 years later. True, the girls being on the receiving end considerations are not as evident here, but not where corporal punishment is most often administered outside the western world and the developed countries.
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HH2012
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Feb 24, 2013#58
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Hi <strong>Oliver Sydney</strong>,
I can see where the confusion lies by your statement, “<em>It also seems to conflict with the 15% (a much more believable figure) of elementary school students in your following post who received 4 or more strappings..</em>.” so I’ll clarify this.
It is not 15% of <em>all </em>elementary students who received 4 or more strappings, it is 15% of all <em>strapped</em>-pupils, who received 4X or more. In this school, over the 20 years, there were 234 pupils (of about 3,000 pupils who attended the school over that time) who were strapped one or more times. So, roughly 8% of the pupils were strapped at some time, and 92% of pupils never were. Of the 234 pupils, 143 of them (61% of <em>strapped</em> pupils) were strapped only once, 32 (14%) were twice, and 24 (10%) were strapped exactly 3X. 35 pupils were strapped 4X or more, and those 35 represent 15% of strapped pupils, and 1.2% of the total enrollment over that period.
Total incidents were 492, which averages 26 strappings per school year, and with an average enrollemnt of 1,000 pupils, this was an ave. SCP administration rate of 2.6%. I personally consider that to be a reasonable SCP admin rate, as it reflects that it is not used daily or even weekly, and therefore not for trivial or minor offences.
Nine students, representing 0.3% of all enrollment, took 7 or more strappings (2 std dev. on the curve) and accounted for 84 of the 492 incidents, or about one sixth, of all strappings meted. It is these children I refer to when I say above “<em>This, alone, should have tipped off any observant educator that there was an overriding issue with such a child, which cause needed to be isolated and rectified (perhaps abusive, uncaring, or alcoholic parents, unidentified learning disability, etc…)</em>.”
Regarding high suspension rates. Here’s one handy to me: The Toronto Board banned SCP in1971. Five years later, suspensions were liberally meted at the Park Street School to restore discipline. (I infer it to be an elementary school as suspensions were handed out for jumping on teacher’s cars, climbing trees, and the like). In this case, 330 suspensions (1 day, 12 day and rarely 30 day) were handed out to 165 of the school’s 870 pupils, or about 20% of the school’s enrollment had been suspended at least once in that school year.
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Oliver_Sydney
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Feb 24, 2013#59
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Hi HH
Thank you very much for the detailed clarification and extra information. You are quite right, I had misunderstood the percentages. You don’t specify the years but I can relate to the figures as I suspect they roughly correspond to the use of formal CP in my (very restrained for the times) primary schools. It would certainly be a rather dysfunctional primary school kid to be caned 7 or more times with that sort of regime. In contrast I am aware of other schools (at least in the UK and Australia) where the cane was used multiple times every day by particular teachers.
Thanks also for the clarification on Park Street. The fact that it was an elementary school certainly seems to confirm my allegation of gross incompetence by the management, unless there were special circumstances.
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HH2012
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Feb 24, 2013#60
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Hi <strong>Oliver Sydney,</strong>
My mind sometimes looks at things differently than most people would, so here’s a thought about the Park Street suspensions. By the way, the principal stated in a later interview that the suspensions were “highly effective”.
In my opinion, the effectiveness cannot be creditted to the principal. The reality of the “highly effective” comes from something beyond his control. Here’s my thought process: I haven’t seen this school’s CP records, so I will assume that (being in the Toronto Board) the records would have been typical of other schools from say 1955 to 1971.
If SCP was still used in 1976 how many pupils would have been strapped? The school had 870 pupils, and using a 2.6% annual SCP admin rate, there would have been 22.6 strappings in the school year. Further, for pupils who were strapped, they were strapped on average 2.1 times (using the above 492 incidents over 234 pupils). That means that in a year, 11 different children would have been strapped (22.6 strappings / 2.1 ave strapping per pupil).
If the ideological intent was to save children from exposure to physical correction, I submit that the complete opposite actually occurred! For most parents, “trouble at school means trouble at home”. While there are parents who are willfully blind, oblivious/indifferent or subscribe to progressive or lunatic fringe approaches (Echler, 1955) where punishment is not used, I would opine that at least half of the suspended children (and perhaps many more) were spanked at home for causing trouble at school.
Considering 165 children were suspended, that transates into roughly 80 or more children that were corporally punished at home, as an extension to the now nonexistent SCP. (Perhaps that was the principal’s intent? he should have known how most parents would respond to this in the 1970’s). So what we end up with is, rather than 11 children being corporally punished as a deterrent to all pupils in maintaining school discipline, we now have in excess of 80 children corporally punished, which is only a deterrent to the 80, but not the school population. What does one make of that?
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HH2012
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Feb 24, 2013#61
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In answer to the question, the years for the SCP data presented above are 1956 to 1975. That data is from a Scarborough Elementary (K-8) (5-13 year-olds). This board has since merged into the Toronto District SB, but at that time was independent, and so while Toronto (public schools) banned SCP in 1971, Scarborough (public schools) did not ban SCP until 1985.
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Oliver_Sydney
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Feb 25, 2013#62
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Hi HH
Thank you very much for your further posts. I would have thought that in those years, informal CP would have also been common in elementary schools. I believe it was officially frowned on in NSW, but it was widely used.
I do agree with some of your thoughts, and I think that the model you suggest seems sensible at elementary school level. However, unlike most on this forum, I have doubts as to the efficacy of school CP and concerns about its negative consequences on some children. I would certainly concede that the sudden withdrawal of CP could cause problems, though more at the middle/high school level.
I think your statement to Renee is well worth repeating:
Second is that suspensions were widely used as the replacement for SCP. This is not a panacea, because the diligent and conscientious students who would recognise the loss of several days or weeks of education as detrimental to their future are not the ones predisposed (perhaps even motivated) to causing the troubles that warrant suspensions in the first place. They were also not the usual recipients of SCP either. It is the ones that view a suspension as a holiday, that are predisposed to causing the issues that warrant suspensions. And true to a reward-based philosophy & system, it unintentionally rewards this type of individual by giving them a holiday whenever they offend – as they don’t understand the negative ramifications of it. In essence, rewarding bad behaviour and thereby only reinforcing it. “Wouldn’t you rather wander the streets and party with the hood than be bored in school?” …kind of attitude. That’s one of the conundrums that all this has created.
I fully agree with this statement, and it is the reason why I am strongly opposed to suspension except where teacher or student safety is involved. For those who are persistently disruptive, or any of a multitude of other offences, there must be a better way.
Even in paddling states such as Florida and Louisiana the suspension rates are appalling. American Way linked to some figures on Florida in the third link in this post.
Surprisingly suspensions were slightly higher in the paddling ISDs than the non paddling ISDs. Expulsions in the paddling ISDs were at well over the double the rate of the non paddling ISDs.
Paddling ISDs: OSS 10.4%, ISS 11.2%, Expulsions 7.8 per 10000 students, Total students 329,775
Non Paddling ISDs: OSS 8.8%, ISS 9.8%, Expulsions 3.1 per 10000 students, total students 2,331,562
I am not claiming this is any way conclusive but I do find it interesting. I should emphasise that even in the paddling ISDs the overall rate of CP use was very low (1.6%).
As far as the Park Street School is concerned, surely there would have been many other ways to achieve discipline in an elementary school. I can only guess at the Principal’s motives – maybe he was part of a political game by those opposed to abolition, using the children as pawns.
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JennyBr
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Feb 25, 2013#63
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Hi Oliver Sydney
It’s due to the sudden change, no the lack of CP per se.
Any action, no matter how slight, taken in response to misbehaviour can be seen as a punishment when there is nothing to compare it to. A simple telling off can be an effective punishment but if, for the same offence, another child receives what is perceived as a more serious or severer punishment, the child who is just told off feels let off completely.
The same thing happens when a sanction, especially one considered serious, is suddenly removed. If, yesterday, you knew the punishment for offence ‘X’ would be (for example) the cane but, today, you know that, no matter what you did, you couldn’t be caned, you could form the impression that you would have to be let off so you would have no reason to behave.
The problem with removing CP was that some teachers had adopted the role of “oppressor” and used it to beat children into submission. In addition, some would attempt to quell dissent by causing friction in the ranks – “divide and conquer”. The easiest way to do this was to break the class up into smaller groups (boy and girls for example) and set one against the other by treating them differently – sometimes by favouring one group in some ways and the other in other ways. When CP is removed, the oppressor no longer has the means to oppress so faces almost instant rebellion.
Those teachers who, instead, adopted the role of “pack leader”, so becoming a member of “the pack” and keeps control by mutual respect. I believe, whether he’s conscious of it or not, that’s the role Prof N adopts. Pack leaders can still use CP but, when or if they do, they are not attempting to beat their pack members into submission, they are only (re)establishing the pecking order. It such cases, the CP need be little more than a token. In a classroom situation, when a pack member offends, she or he is called to the front so being isolated from and temporarily ostracised by the pack. By accepting punishment, she or he signifies recognition of the pack leader’s authority and is accepted back. If CP is removed, nothing much changes, the mutual respect remains and the CP 2token” can be easily replaced with another.
I believe that’s what the teacher in the paddling video being discussed in the QUESTIONS YOU ALWAYS WANTED TO ASK TWP II thread although, in that case, she was making a right hash of it.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Feb 25, 2013#64
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Making a hash of it. What happened in that classroom probably stayed in that classroom like Las Vegas. She doesn’t look like one who would bother with paperwork or parents. Not to bend over is a dangerous exception. That last swat was border line high. The teacher felt she was safe with then and so could be more familiar.
Why was she asking them to stand up and not bend over? The black girls seem to instinctively assume that position at one point. Did the white girl say detention before paddling started. Hard to tell. What was too late all about? I don’t speak ebonics. I’m hopeful that the white girl when she serves our Armed Service will see the world and know it’;s much larger than where she came from.
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HH2012
836
Feb 25, 2013#65
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Hi <strong>Oliver Sydney</strong>, I find our discourse quite interesting, as it brings to mind several facets worth commenting on.
“<em>I would have thought that in those years, informal CP would have also been common in elementary schools</em>.” This was true to varying degrees, but that was very Board-dependent. That is why it’s very important, when looking at SCP statistics, to stay with Boards with long-ago adopted regulations like the Toronto ones… Regulations that required strapping on hands only, in the office only, by the principal or designate only (and the designate could <em>not</em> be the teacher who bought in the child to avoid any punishment meted in anger), mandatory witness and that each incident must be recorded. In Boards like these, a teacher who CP’d a child in any other venue/method, etc, could be fired. Because of this, unlike comments I’ve read from KK regarding reliablility of the completeness of such records, here one can be confident that the records accurately reflect every incident of SCP, and the data is thus reliable and meaningful.
“<em>the sudden withdrawal of CP could cause problems, though more at the middle/high school level</em>.” I certainly agree with this, and this brings up something that I’m sure many will not agree with me on. In Ontario, SCP was relatively absent from High Schools, including the ones in the Board I went to (although I didn’t know it at the time, damned!!!).
Like most parents, I’m forced to become an amateur child psychologist. Infact, if you came into my study, you would see an entire bookshelf dedicated to books on psychology, child or adolescent psychology, reward and punishment methodology, pro & anti-CP books & opinions, etc…
The first thing I must conclude (and I’ve said somewhere before) is that every child is different and what works extremely well for one is anywhere from useless to harmful for another. Because in my family’s case it proves quite salutary, this obviously colours my opinion and entrenches my resolve that we should retain it (PCP). If it indicated otherwise, I would quickly abandon it for other approaches, if they proved more effective. (More on this in a follow-up post).
The second, and more salient conclusion (it may be right or wrong, but it is my opinion) is that CP is most effective for children up to the age of about 12. Thereafter, they become sufficiently amenable to reason (several child-psychology books generally mirrored this statement) such that other methods gain effectiveness, while at the same time, the risks of unintended harm from CP begin to rise. So I believe that SCP for high school students is inappropriate. Most ON boards believed the same thing, as they didn’t allow it from Grade 9 and up (our High school). Also, our <em>Supreme Court </em>inadvertently conceded the same point in their January 2004 rulings, where among their guidelines, they stated that this was only appropriate for children up to age 12. (I actually so fully agree with their 2004 decision that I’m in danger of becoming a lobbyist for the retention of the 2004 rulings).
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Feb 25, 2013#66
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In follow-up to my comment, “<em>Because in my family’s case it proves quite salutary</em>”… there is something I would like to share that ties in with the above discussion on the Park Street School suspensions where I commented ” <em>For most parents, “trouble at school means trouble at home”…. I would opine that at least half of the suspended children (and perhaps many more) were spanked at home for causing trouble at school</em>”.
My 6-year-old son (in Grade 1) attends a public elementary school which runs K-8. Suspensions are used here. I don’t know the stats but my impression is OSS is used sparingly, for only serious offences, and usually for children of higher grades. My son knows that if he misbehaves at school and is suspended, trouble at school will be trouble at home. I suspect that’s the case with Renee raising Tyler as well.
Recently, two other 6yo boys decided it was a good idea to start a fire in the school’s playground, and they asked my son to join in. He told me this when he came from school that day. So I asked “so what did you do?”. He said he just walked away and found some other boys to play with (so he didn’t know if the two set a fire). I gave him a hug and told him how proud I was of him that he made the right decision. He asked what kind of trouble he’d be in if he did that (which was a test as he clearly knew). I told him the school would have suspended him, and he definitely would have been spanked once the got home. To which he replied something like he was pertty sure that would happen.
The point of all this is, even for a six-year-old, there is a conscious thinking process at work. Being aware that there are consequences (and the expectation of such is the deterrence), allows the child to identify situations to avoid, and therefore has utility.
This shows that there is a another reversal. SCP was once an extension of <em>in loco parentis</em>, but truly, PCP is an extension of the now-absent SCP. It can be argued that it inadvertently supports school discipline, being an extension of behaviour at school. Therefore, once PCP is banned, I would have an expectation of further decline in school discipline.
The most important data, which we will never have is this: In the Park Street suspensions, there was recidivism becasue 330 OSS were handed to 165 pupils, an average of 2 suspension per OSS’d pupil. It’s too bad we cannot know (as no one documented the answers to this question) – What was the recidivism of suspended pupils who were parentally punished at home as a result of their OSS vs. those who were not? Having data like that would really say much one way or the other.
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Oliver_Sydney
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Feb 26, 2013#67
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Hi HH
Thank you for your two lengthy comments. I agree with most of what you say, and in particular every child is different and what works extremely well for one is anywhere from useless to harmful for another.
I have no doubt that by the age of 6, children would know they are doing wrong by lighting a fire. I would also be very surprised if parents would not impose the punishment or sanctions they they deem appropriate in such a case. This is particularly so as I regard suspension as principally a way of punishing parents rather than the children. I was deeply impressed by the remarkable figures for Renee’s school in the TWP II thread – one can only imagine the efforts needed to keep OSS at that level.
I can understand some of the logic of those calling for PCP bans. The main promoters appear to be pediatricians who see the victims of CP gone wrong. The main targets are the increasing numbers of dysfunctional families, and influences such as alcohol and stress-induced temper. Beyond this I am not really up with the issues as I believe there is no real pressure for a PCP ban anywhere in Australia. Surveys appear to indicate about 80% of parents use CP, which I would have guessed may be about right. When I said this elsewhere A-L correctly pointed out this CP would have been milder and used less frequently than in earlier times.
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Feb 26, 2013#68
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Hi Jenny and Prof.N
Thank you for your interesting analyses.
I would not have characterised any of my teachers as oppressors, but I struggle a bit with the concept of a “pack leader”. My recollection was of something in between – always a clear hierarchy and authority, with CP available but not used often.
The “paddling video” just seemed all wrong – the semi-jovial atmosphere would never have happened in my schools. Twice I recall boys being caned in the senior years – my only guess as to why is that they said something quietly that was perceived as insubordination. Both were extremely surprising as they were mild mannered teachers who caned rarely. In each case the boy was taken to an adjacent small room (in view of the class) and given 6 on the hands. Both teachers and boys had very red faces.
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HH2012
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Feb 26, 2013#69
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Hi <strong>Oliver Sydney</strong>,
You exactly pre-empted the one observation I was going to make on the (Park Street) suspension issue! There were at least two explanations for the unusually high OSS arte at this elementary. Either “<em>gross incompetence by the management</em>” or as you have now put it “<em>principally a way of punishing parents rather than the children</em>”.
I believe the second is spot-on. Especially for working families, it is a real hassle to either take time off work (loss of wages) to supervise your minor child while at home, or hire someone (again costing money) to do so, unless you’re fortunate to have other friends or family handy and willing to help. So yes, one way or the other, this is to punish the parents… or at least wake them up to the fact that their child has serious behavioural issues at school that need to be addressed.
And I would conclude, where you said, “<em>Principal’s motives – maybe he was part of a political game by those opposed to abolition, using the children as pawns</em>.” that indeed, the principal probably thought he had lost his ability to enforce discipline through SCP, and finally figured, “the h*ll with it, let the parents deal with it.”
<p align=”center”>_______________________________________
On another thought, I had always considered that New Zealand and Australia must be culturally similar because of geographical proximity. The fact that New Zealanders accepted the imposition of a PCP ban whereas it seems well entrenched and supported in Australia would indicate to me that my first impression is in error.
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Feb 26, 2013#70
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HH2012
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Feb 26, 2013#71
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Feb 26, 2013#72
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Oh, and <strong>prof.n</strong>, may I kindly ask that you never mention CP bans and the EU again? You must realize that bait is far too strong for me. Besides, my doctor says I should steer clear of anything that may elevate my blood pressure
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Guest
Feb 26, 2013#73
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hi HH, Another Lurker,
The real problem is that there is little organised opposition. the Tories mouth platitudes, but look at what the education secretary, for example, really thinks
http://www.network54.com/Forum/198833/t … +education
and Gove is the supposed right wing, so you can count most of the others out! When a referendum comes it will be with a weasel question and the BBC and other organs of the ‘state’ will rally behind the fear that leaving and/or renegotiating with Europe will leave us jobless, and swathes of British sheep will, wait patently in the slaughterhouse queue.It is what happened in the 70’s , its what’s happened in Ireland and Greece, and I don’t think the only country to reject revolt in the age of revolutions will set the wheel back in spin . But that’s my pessimism perhaps.
Meanwhile Scotland, the country that for more than a century abused its children far worse with the tawse than other area of Britain , will continue to fine or imprison anyone who has the temerity to slap their child in the street.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Feb 27, 2013#74
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi Prof.n,
In the salutation of your February 26 2013, 11:30 PM contribution above concerning the possible 2017 UK vote on EU membership you said:
Not guilty Guv, I haven’t contributed to this thread since February 23 2013, 10:50 PM – and that was to comment on American Way’s link to a Montreal Gazette article from 1974 about school pupil behaviour post a CP ban!
I’ve heard of guilt by association, but this is ridiculous! </div>
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dominum
1,407
Feb 27, 2013#75
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I have been too busy with the start of a new school year to be reading much here, or participate – which is a pity as I can see a lot of good discussion has been going on, and on a fair number of points, it has probably now moved beyond where I can usefully comment on some issues, but I will weigh in on this.
On another thought, I had always considered that New Zealand and Australia must be culturally similar because of geographical proximity. The fact that New Zealanders accepted the imposition of a PCP ban whereas it seems well entrenched and supported in Australia would indicate to me that my first impression is in error.
HH, it seems to me a Canadian could be more aware than most of the fact that geographical proximity to another country doesn’t always mean great cultural similarity. The relationship between Australia and New Zealand has some parallels with that between the United States and Canada – there’s a shared language and some very close connections and ties, but there are also a lot of areas where there are quite significant cultural differences. The influence of the Empire and then the Commonwealth ameliorated them in some ways for quite a long time but they are very real.
It has been said many times on this forum that people need to remember that Australia is a collection of six different states, most of which were separate self-governing entities for most of the second half of the nineteenth century. They have different histories and they have different cultures even within Australia. They found enough common cause in 1901 to federate into a single nation, but they are still very different in many ways even today.
And when it comes to New Zealand… let me just quote from Section Six of the Australian Constitution (which began life as a bill of the British Parliament):
The Commonwealth shall mean the Commonwealth of Australia as established under this Act.
The States shall mean such of the colonies of New South Wales, New Zealand, Queensland, Tasmania, Victoria, Western Australia, and South Australia, including the northern territory of South Australia, as for the time being are parts of the Commonwealth, and such colonies or territories as may be admitted into or established by the Commonwealth as States; and each of such parts of the Commonwealth shall be called a State.
There were seven colonies that could have become Australian – New Zealand, even in 1900, regarded itself as distinct enough and separate enough that it chose not to affiliate with the others. Even then its culture was distinct enough from the other Australasian colonies, to want to remain separate.
And it’s remained so.
New Zealand tends to be more ‘progressive’ and ‘social democratic’ than Australia on many issues. It’s much closer to being a welfare state than Australia. Australia was founded as a convict colony (or at least the original colonies of Australia were) and a healthy disrespect for government authority still permeates the nation. New Zealand was founded largely as a settlement of devout free settlers, who regarded the government as their benefactor to be respected and obeyed. I am, of course, oversimplifying.
But whatever the differences – we are brothers. We may not always think the same as those across the Tasman, but we’ll stand with each other and if need we’ll die with each other. When Australia needs help, the Kiwis are normally the first to offer a helping hand – and vice versa.
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HH2012
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Feb 27, 2013#76
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Hi <strong>Doctor Dominum</strong>, and welcome back. Thank you for this very concise and informative synopsis, as it explains a lot.
Where you say, “<em>it seems to me a Canadian could be more aware than most of the fact that geographical proximity to another country doesn’t always mean great cultural similarity</em>.” Of course I am aware of these things! one only needs to look internally to our country. Quebec handles things substantially different versus the rest of Canada (for example, they have some “need” to administer their own pension plan, whereas the rest of us have a Canada Pension Plan). There are shades of gray in all these things.
But, where you may disagree with me, is on the point of PCP bans. I personally view this as a shift to an ideological extreme whereas others may view this as just another difference. So the point being: the difference in the attitudes in New Zealand vs Australia must be extremely divergent whereas, while the USA, Canada (and Quebec inside Canada) differ on various cultural points, we generally live within the same ideological realm. If that makes any sense?
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Guest
Feb 27, 2013#77
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another Lurker,
I never suspected you were guilty of anything ……but knowing your love and enthusiasm for all things pan European, I guessed you wouldn’t want to be left out whenever there is a chance to wave the ( European ) flag ,and sing in unison !!!!!
Here are Schiller’s lyrics for you to sing along with !
Alle Menschen werden Brüder
Freude, schöner Götterfunken
Tochter aus Elysium,
Wir betreten feuertrunken,
Himmlische, dein Heiligtum!
Deine Zauber binden wieder
Was die Mode streng geteilt;
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.
Wem der große Wurf gelungen,
Eines Freundes Freund zu sein;
Wer ein holdes Weib errungen,
Mische seinen Jubel ein!
Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele
Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund!
Und wer’s nie gekonnt, der stehle
Weinend sich aus diesem Bund!
Freude trinken alle Wesen
An den Brüsten der Natur;
Alle Guten, alle Bösen
Folgen ihrer Rosenspur.
Küsse gab sie uns und Reben,
Einen Freund, geprüft im Tod;
Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben,
und der Cherub steht vor Gott.
Froh,
wie seine Sonnen fliegen
Durch des Himmels prächt’gen Plan,
Laufet, Brüder, eure Bahn,
Freudig, wie ein Held zum Siegen.
Seid umschlungen, Millionen!
Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt!
Brüder, über’m Sternenzelt
Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen.
Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen?
Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt?
Such’ ihn über’m Sternenzelt!
Über Sternen muß er wohnen.
I wonder why the Latin version is favoured here ?
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dominum
1,407
Feb 27, 2013#78
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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A couple of comments to HH, but as I said, I think the conversation has, unfortunately, moved beyond certain points when I was unable to devote any time to it.
The second, and more salient conclusion (it may be right or wrong, but it is my opinion) is that CP is most effective for children up to the age of about 12. Thereafter, they become sufficiently amenable to reason (several child-psychology books generally mirrored this statement) such that other methods gain effectiveness, while at the same time, the risks of unintended harm from CP begin to rise.
You probably won’t be surprised that I disgree.
Are adolescents more amenable to reason than younger children? Yes, but they are also more likely in some ways to suffer a ‘failure of reasoning’. Teenagers are almost as intelligent as adults in many ways, but they are tremendously more likely to ‘do something dumb’. This is why they are at such risk when operating motor vehicles, for example – it’s quite clear (from the American experience) that a typical 16 year old is perfectly capable of learning to drive. It’s also quite clear that at that age, they are also prone to making stupid and dangerous decisions behind the wheel.
Where corporal punishment is useful with adolescents is in those cases where reason fails them. It’s fairly rare that a teenager who is thinking rationally at the time, commits any significant act of misbehaviour. When it happens, it’s because they’ve left the path of reason.
Remember – in most cases, unless something is seriously wrong, most adolescents behave most of the time. That means that when they misbehave, you’re not looking at their typical mindset. If you’re dealing with an adolescent who is misbehaving a lot, there are probably issues involved that mean punishment, of any sort, is not likely to be the best solution to whatever is going on. Where punishment is useful, is with those who normally do the right things and occasionally make decisions that take them off the rails.
As for the idea that the risks of harm from corporal punishment begin to rise with older adolescents, I honestly find it very difficult to find any evidence of this, at least with regards to boys, in reliable research – plenty of claims that it is so, but nobody seems to be able to cite the evidence they are relying on when they make these claims. But what I would say is that any punishment carries risks, and what concerns me most is that when corporal punishment is singled out as risky, it often seems to lead to a conclusion that other forms of punishment are not risky and they start to be used carelessly. I think any punishment should be used with care, and attention being paid to risk factors, and I believe that if that is done, corporal punishment is unlikely to be any more risky than any other form of punishment – and that, in many cases, because people are more likely to be careful in using corporal punishment than other forms of punishment, it can actually wind up being far safer, because the others are not being used carefully.
There’s also the factor – and this is a very important one in my view – that if an 11 year old is exhibiting serious misbehavior (of the type typically exhibited in families and schools – here I am expressly not talking about children and adolescents with genuine problems like oppositional defiant disorder or conduct disorder, or those who have crossed the line into criminal behaviour), you still have years to find solutions to that. With a 15 year old, you’ve got much less time, and with a 17 year old, even less. The lack of time doesn’t, by itself, mean corporal punishment is appropriate, but there are occasions where it is part of the reason why it may be. In the type of school system we have here in Australia, going off the rails for even a few weeks at the age of 16 or 17, can have devastating long term consequences for an adolescent that would not have mattered much at all if they’d happened a year earlier – and would not matter at all if they happened a year later. When I’ve found myself using corporal punishment with boys of that age, that’s often been a major part of why it’s being used. Are they amenable to reason? Sure – and I’ll try that, and if it works, a lot of the time, there’s absolutely no need to punish them. But if there’s been a ‘failure of reasoning’, it may continue after the act, and if there aren’t serious issues involved, the quick solution may be the best solution.
But, where you may disagree with me, is on the point of PCP bans. I personally view this as a shift to an ideological extreme whereas others may view this as just another difference. So the point being: the difference in the attitudes in New Zealand vs Australia must be extremely divergent whereas, while the USA, Canada (and Quebec inside Canada) differ on various cultural points, we generally live within the same ideological realm. If that makes any sense?
Yes, it does, and I’m not really in a position to judge if the differences between Australia and New Zealand are greater, than those (say) between the USA and Canada. But there are, I think, a few issues that may be relevant here.
I believe Australia has a stronger conservative party (actually the coalition of the Liberal/National Parties) than New Zealand – and for that matter in comparison to the UK. It’s hard to make comparisons with the US parties as there are specific issues in American politics that don’t have much relevance here, and I don’t know enough about Canadian politics to make a comparison), but the fact is, about half the time, Australia has genuine conservative governments and genuinely (albeit fairly mildly) socialist governments at both our state and federal levels. The country also contains a strong socially conservative base which has a lot of power and influence. From the Australian perspective, New Zealand is a fairly left wing country.
But – in terms of the idea of a parental corporal punishment ban in Australia, I actually don’t think it would be that hard for that to happen at least in certain states – provided it was done the ‘right way’.
What do I mean by that? Simply, it would have to be done by Acts of the (state) Parliaments, without a perception of undue ‘foreign’ influence.
If the High Court of Australia made some sort of similar ruling on corporal punishment to that made a few years ago by the Supreme Court of Canada, while I think the laws would change (because the High Court certainly has the powers to make such a ruling), I think there would be outrage and resentment across Australia. A similar decision passed by a state Parliament, however, would be reasonably accepted.
But a government would have to be in a very secure position electorally, to be willing to use up political capital over such an issue, because it would be electorally unpopular.
I could see a Labor government doing it near the beginning of a term where it had a solid majority and a few years for the controversy to die down. At least I could in some states.
Why not the Federal government? Because it’s currently a state issue – the laws that allow for corporal punishment are state laws in every state except Victoria (in Victoria, and also in the Australian Capital Territory, parental corporal punishment is legal under common law – there are no Acts of Parliament that say it’s legal – in all the other states and the Northern Territory, there are explicit authorisations for parental corporal punishment built into Acts of Parliament). The Federal Government is very limited in its ability to override state law unless it uses powers designed to enforce international treaties – so any interference by the Federal Government would be based on foreign influence, and Australians generally don’t like overseas bodies trying to change our laws.
If a ban is passed, as I say, it will almost certainly come from a Labor government with a solid majority, and a conservative government is unlikely to reverse it, when they next take office – quietly ignore it, and not worry too much about enforcing it, if they can, but not actually change it. So I can see it happening, in at least some states. Certainly more limited restrictions (like those in Canada) are quite plausible.
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KKxyz
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Feb 28, 2013#79
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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New Zealanders like to believe that we are very different and rather more civilized than Australians. Notwithstanding this, many Kiwis have moved to Australia in recent years. This has increased the average IQ of both nations.
Corporal punishment was banned in all New Zealand schools from 23 July 1990 by the Education Amendment Act 1990. SCP was in decline for the decade or so before this date.
SCP was in the main moderate and well regulated, judged by the expectations of the time. SCP provided a standard or model for parents, when they were children, as to what was appropriate for children of different ages. In the absence of such standards, the only guidance parents had was their own experiences at the hands of their own parents.
SCP peaked around age 14. Boys of this age are still the most frequently in trouble at school.
The Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Act 2007 removed the legal defence of “reasonable force” for parents who smacked their children. The law change was in part a response to some appalling cases of parental brutality and murder, and in part, because juries routinely acquitted parents charged with assault who used what some thought were unduly harsh punishment.
The hope is that if it is illegal to smack children they are less likely to be bashed or murdered by the drunk or drugged. Feral children of feral parents and grandparents are the most at risk.
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Guest
Feb 28, 2013#80
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Liar Liar pants on fire.
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HH2012
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Feb 28, 2013#81
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi <strong>Doctor Dominum</strong>,
On the “<em>adolescents more amenable to reason than younger children</em>” issue, I read your points and can’t find any major disagreement in your presentation. I have been accused (by Colin Farrell for example) of putting undue weight into, or been affected by, the opinions of people like prof. Van Yelyr who are narrowly preoccupied with the “<em>psychological-sexual linking with punishment of the buttocks</em>”. However, I must concede that the strongest opinions on child-rearing come from people who have never had a child, nor even been in the proximity of one. Thus, I feel <em>equally qualified </em>in speaking of adolescents since I do not have one yet But seriously, with lack of real evidence this may be more of an opinion, but a variety of alternative methods supposedly “so very effective” are currently useless to me, but I do think they stand a much better chance of success by adolescence. Since I cannot empirically prove or disaprove, I’ll have to leave this at that.
You’ve picked up on one of the conundrums in this genre. First, I fully agree with the statement ” that any punishment carries risks”, and therefore such risks are not unique to CP per-se. I would go further and say it is not the punishment which causes unintented harm, it is invariably the inappropriate, incompetent or otherwise incorrect delivery of it, where the risk of damage lies. (…this and what’s next are topics I have written about so I can easily cite sourced on if wanted).
So the obvious solution is that if any punishment carries risk, then no punishment should ever be used. Of course researchers like Marzano (Marzano, Robert J, <font face=”Cambria,Cambria”>What Works in Schools: Translating Research into Action</font>, Alexandria VA, 2003) through realtime experimentation in actual school environments (Echler’s scale of environments, from reactive to lunatic fringe) has shown that the optimum efficacy was in a system that equally balanced reward and punishment, and the further progressive the methods became (no punishments allowed) the worse the outcomes; the worst was the lunitic fringe approach, which intentionally ignories the behaviour expecting it to eventually go away.
The inability to effectively alter serious or antisocial behaviour <em>also</em> causes long term harm to the individual (the other side of the one-sided punishment-causes-harm argument) …by reinforcing it or abetting it, and this negatively impacts society as a whole.
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Thank you on the clarification on the pathway any possible PCP ban in Australia would have to take. TheStates having these powers is different than how we handle it so I appreciate the explanation. In Canada, this falls under the <em>Criminal Code</em> (Sec.43) and is therefore clearly federal jurisdiction, and something a <em>Supreme Court Ruling </em>could impose; not provincial jurisdiction.
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Feb 28, 2013#82
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi <strong>KK</strong>, I appreciate your insight. please don’t misunderstand my motives ofr bringing uo th eNZ/AU comparison. Just from someone who does not know the ins-and-outs, the perspectives from natives of a country are most valuable.
It seems the typical human condition, a rash emotional response to a situation rather than a well-considered one. These responses, in many unrelated areas, always have the outcome of removing something of utility from the vast majority of responsible people rather than dealing directly with the irresponsible ones.
I take your comments “<em>The law change was in part a response to some appalling cases of parental brutality and murder, and in part, because juries routinely acquitted parents charged with assault who used what some thought were unduly harsh punishment</em>” very seriously. I assure you, as a typical and rational person (I think )<em> can </em>readily recognise the difference between judiscious correction and overt abuse, and I would not be so quick to acquit!
What (in my world) should have happened was a clear set of specific guidelines enacted, so that any judge or jury could quickly see that lines were overstepped. That appeared to be too much work so better to ban the whole affair, to what I believe will be the empirical detriment to, not only the parents but society at large (and yes, I have produced empirical figures to back that one up).
“<em>The hope is that if it is illegal to smack children they are less likely to be bashed or murdered by the drunk or drugged</em>”. I wonder what the colour of the sky is on the planet this person lives on? Do they seriously expect anyone in a highly impaired state to consider what laws there might be? We are now giving lengthy prison terms to people who drink-and-drive and kill someone – yet they simply<em> do not </em>consider these consequences when they’re in that altered state. Not that it changes anything but just my thoughts…
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Feb 28, 2013#83
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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So where does all this tie in with SCP? There is a lesson that can be learned from our own SCP bans that relates directly to those PCP bans, particularly in the EU. From the 1960’s through the 1980’s there was a definitie shift in the general attitude of educators on how to teach, how to discipline, etc. The result was, in very many cases, the educators removed the strap from their schools voluntarily, prefering to use other methods. Then, especially in school board Bans that occurred in the mid to late 1980’s, it tended to be a non event since most of the schools no longer had a strap in them, and the ones that did used it quite rarely. That’s why, by the 1990’s we only had about 3 boards left (of over 100 in Ontario) that didn’t already abolish SCP, and this explains why it was a non-issue for the province. Hence Ontario never banned as a province, they just saw no need for it since the practice had pretty much died out anyway. In short, The number 1 reason that our SCP bans came about was that the majority of educators no longer supported it.
This is an important lesson to PCP bans. In my opinion, the wrong way to do it is simply make a law and impose it, and thus criminalize what had been normal parental behaviour for over 5,000 years, and leaving parents in a vacuum. For something so well-entrenched, I would think it takes at least a generation to change attitudes significantly. Thus, the right way to do it is by setting clear and limited guidelines, but not banning it initially. Then, there should be a very visible and continual education campaign in the media (as was done with changing attitues on smoking, for example) to change attitudes and show the citizens better, workable and practical alternatives. Done properly, those new approaches will become the norm, and like in the SCP situation described above, the old ways will simply die out. Once most poeple neither support it or use it anymore, it will be become much easier to ban it, with little pushback or adverse effects. That would be my take on this.
<strong>KK</strong>, do you know if such campaigns ran (or are running) in the media? or was it just an edict and that was that?
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JennyBr
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Feb 28, 2013#84
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi Oliver Sydney
You say:
Obviously I can’t comment on your teachers, because I don’t know anything about them, nor how you viewed them but the criteria you mention are not the determinants.
Whether teachers are “pack leaders” or “oppressors” is not determined by whether they use CP nor how strict they are. One of the strictest teachers in my school (an RE teacher) didn’t use CP herself as far as I know (I was never in one of her classes so I’m not completely sure) but I would classify her as an oppressor. I would also classify my English teacher, probably the softest teacher in the school, as an oppressor.
My TD/Metalwork teacher however, was definitely a pack leader, despite being very strict in the workshops and using CP very effectively for quite minor misbehaviour there. When a few of us were “messing about” by detonating safety matches on an anvil, we were taken out to the corridor and slippered for it. Elsewhere, however, he would turn a blind eye to minor misbehaviour and speak up for us if we were caught by other teachers. He didn’t even confiscate the matches and it wouldn’t surprise me if he let us keep them because he thought we might need then for <s>fag</s> break time.
Both oppressors and pack leaders control the class (“pack”). The difference is that pack leaders support, even serve, the class and its members whereas oppressors expect the class to serve them.
The different roles are clear in this incident involving Prof N. More details of the incident can be found here. Essentially, Mojo’s headmistress considered a school social event (known in many circles as a “p**s up”) took priority over Mojo’s meeting with a professor at a university, a meeting that Mojo had previously told the school about. She wasn’t told to avoid any particular days and it was only after she made arrangements that she was told she couldn’t go. That’s a clear sign of an oppressor.
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KKxyz
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Feb 28, 2013#85
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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HH:
Please don’t misunderstand my motives for bringing up the NZ/AU comparison. Just from someone who does not know the ins-and-outs, the perspectives from natives of a country are most valuable.
I had no objection. Few Australians think often about their smaller neighbour compared with the reverse. I believe the same applies with the USA and Canada.
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HH:
I take your comments “The law change was in part a response to some appalling cases of parental brutality and murder, and in part, because juries routinely acquitted parents charged with assault who used what some thought were unduly harsh punishment” very seriously. I assure you, as a typical and rational person (I think ) can readily recognise the difference between judicious correction and overt abuse, and I would not be so quick to acquit!
In law, juries are the only arbiters of what constitutes “reasonable force”. I think their judgement was sound and an accurate reflection of the views of responsible citizens. Bashers and murderers were found guilty.
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HH:
Do you know if such campaigns ran (or are running) in the media? or was it just an edict and that was that?
The ban on PCP was imposed with little or no attempt to educate parents on how to do without. I do not think this mattered too much for most parents as they are developing their own techniques. The feral parents would not have been reached by even the most intense campaign.
Nowadays, because of the extraordinary means used to promote products and services of little or no inherent merit, it is almost impossible to get important information heard.
In 2011, there was a non-binding referendum on the issue that asked a very strange question, viz. “Should a smack as part of good parental correction be a criminal offence in New Zealand?” Some 87% voted “no” but nothing much happened as a consequence of the referendum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealan … ndum,_2009
The pro-spankers included the religious right and those who considered their children as chattels as well as many ordinary parents.
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HH2012
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Feb 28, 2013#86
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Mar 01, 2013#87
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Hi <strong>prof.n</strong>, apologies for not repsonding to your post on feb 26, 11:30pm.
I had intended to comment on your last statement, “<em>Meanwhile Scotland, the country that for more than a century abused its children far worse with the tawse than other area of Britain , will continue to fine or imprison anyone who has the temerity to slap their child in the street.</em>” Really? It would be interesting if there was a recent news article or something that can be quoted to illustrate this. I don’t doubt what you say – there seems to be a propensity of overcompensating whenever there is a change in social custom.
It raises another point (beyond that Scotland can now be removed from my list of family vacation options lest there is an inadvertent slip of the hand). The <em>real</em> point is: moral/ethical conduct, or whatever you may wish to call it, <em>has nothing whatsoever </em>to do with the law. The Dutch may enjoy smoking marajuana in the street in Amsterdam, but if they visited here and did that, they’d be arrested PDQ. A parent here may give their child’s seat an inadvertent smack in public, but try that in Amsterdam and you’d be arrested.
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KKxyz
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Mar 01, 2013#88
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HH quoted:
“The law also explicitly recognises standard police practice of exercising discretion as to whether or not to prosecute in very minor cases where there is no public interest in proceeding.”
The police can have considerable difficulty exercising discretion when the law is controversial. Rather than getting involved in controversy they are inclined to let the court decide. This has happened with dubious rape allegations and when passionate anti-spankers make virulent complaints about minor incidents. The defendant is damaged even if the case against him is dismissed by the court.
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HH2012
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Mar 01, 2013#89
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi<strong> KK</strong>, your point is well taken. I agree that police are not in the business of making such judgement calls for fear of making an incorrect one and possible negative repercussions… “best to arrest” and let the courts sort it out.
“<em>The defendant is damaged even if the case against him is dismissed by the court</em>”, Until (if your civil system works that way) someone reciprocates by suing the original complainant for defamation, reputational damage, malicious prosecution and intent with forethought to cause harm. Our civil system is increasingly aligning with our American neighbours (spelled “neighbors” in the USA ). Civil litigation has it’s downfalls, but it does make people think twice before embarking on purely vengeful activity to prove a point through depraved indifference to others.
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Oliver_Sydney
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Mar 01, 2013#90
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Hi Jenny
Thank you kindly for trying to explain to me the concepts of oppressor and pack leader. Certainly I can understand the Mo Jo HM as an oppressor. However I cannot grasp how the softest teacher in the school is also, rather than just a poor teacher.
I am still struggling to relate this to my own high school teachers. My high school memories are rather bland – most teachers were reasonable except on a bad day. Some were better teachers than others, or at least I found them so. However there would have been zero tolerance of defiance or insubordination.
Where I really did meet oppressors and pointless rules was in the Army (part time) which I did as an alternative to National Service and Vietnam. Whilst most NCOs were OK there were a small number of truly obnoxious characters – no teacher came close.
My TD/Metalwork teacher …. I envy you learning Metalwork though I guess being in a co-ed school made it easier. I regret that cooking was not even considered for a boys school in NSW in the 1960s. It is now universal, popular and taught by a former chef.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Mar 01, 2013#91
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Oliver Sydney. Many of my classmates who served in Vietnam combat are now ones who in retrospect wished they had followed your path. Some were predisposed to serve with the Peace Corps even before the war. Nothing wrong with being a part timer to avoid combat just look at President George W. Bush.
I try to stay away from politics. Americans are divided on many issues other than SCP and focussing on those issues have generated more heat than light. After the tragic shooting in Newtown Connecticut on December 14, 2012 we had this take from Renee on December 22, 1912.
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Peace Corps? Gimme a break! That’s another means to just dodge the draft. FORGETABOUTIT!
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Mar 01, 2013#92
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Hi Oliver Sydney
My metalwork never got off the ground. I am really ‘ham fisted’ ‘clumsy’ to an extreme……..off the scale at one end with verbal reasoning , off the scale at the other with practical craft !!!! My craft teacher drew a line with me during woodwork and asked me instead of progressing to metalwork, where he genuinely though I might cut my own hand off ‘accidentally’ ,to supervise the ‘thick’stream mixing concrete posts for the refurbishment of the rifle range. It worked ……a bit like Jack Sprat and his wife….. I could read plans , they wouldn’t or couldn’t …..I couldn’t mix concrete without getting it all over myself, or cut wood without grave risk to my digits : they could !!!!!
As for insubordination …… I was once with a group of friends accused of such a sin , I remember replying,’ I wouldn’t myself agree it is insubordinate , but even if I grant you that , you must agree , Sir, its very polite insubordination as these things go ‘ .. that was another time my house master was lost for words
Vietnam , I remember protesting on the streets round Grosvenor Square………but that’s another story.
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Oliver_Sydney
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Mar 02, 2013#93
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Hi American Way and Prof.N
We are off topic so briefly. The Vietnam War and conscription (the draft) changed Australia in many ways and I am sure had a massive impact right through to schools. My decision to join the CMF (P/T army) was largely pragmatic, as I could both earn money and do my National Service. Like many from lower income families my attendance at university was dependent on a government scholarship which paid the fees and included a living allowance. It was made clear that this scholarship could be jeopardised by protest activity.
One question in the psychological test to join the CMF has always puzzled me.
“Do you sometimes feel different from other people?”
You could only answer Yes or No. I forget my answer but I obviously passed. What was the correct answer ?
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JennyBr
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Mar 02, 2013#94
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Hi Oliver Sydney
Perhaps “softest” wasn’t the best adjective to use. I classified my English teacher as an “oppressor” because that seemed to be her approach (“her against us”), she just wasn’t very good at it. In the same way, over the two years I was in her English class, she didn’t manage to teach any of us any English. Nevertheless, she was still considered an English teacher.
Her mistake was to adopt the position of “oppressor” without being prepared to enforce her will by whatever means were available. It’s the same mistake a lot of teachers made when SCP was abolished. They had relied on it (or the threat of it) so much that they found it difficult to adapt so tried to continue using the old-fashioned oppressive methods without the old-fashioned tools necessary.
There can be such things as “benevolent dictatorships” so teachers in the role of “oppressor” aren’t necessarily evil. They just tend enforce petty rules for the sake of them and consider “the school” more important than the students. They’re the ones who believe students “belong” to the school, to be used for the benefit of the school – viz. Mojo’s HM.
I find it difficult to understand the mentality of such teachers. A school is supposed to be a provider of educational services. In the same way, my GP is a provider of medical services. If a student belongs to a school, to be used as the school sees fit, then surely a patient must belong to a GP’s practice/health centre to be used in a similar manner.
That is one of the many benefits of co-education, a much wider range of subjects can be made available. Due to sex stereotyping, not many girls’ schools would have had well equipped workshop; nor would many boys’ schools have facilities for teaching cookery or needlework. A co-ed school has both so there’s no excuse for refusing to allow girls to do metalwork or boys to do cookery.
The single-sex advocates claim that students wishing to study subjects only provided the the opposite sex school can attend lessons in those subjects at that school. That, however, weakens any argument in favour of single-sex education. If single-sex education is better (which I dispute), sending girls to a boys’ metalwork class means the boys receive an inferior standard of teaching. The same applies, of course, to sending boys to a girls’ cookery class.
In practice, single sex schools could (and did) prevent students taking subjects “unsuitable” for their sex simply by claiming the school didn’t have the facilities. They were even able to do this after the Sex Discrimination Act became law whereas co-ed schools couldn’t without potentially facing legal action.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Mar 10, 2013#95
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Manchester State Industrial School old fashioned medicine for young female miscreants. Whipping cure up to 250 lashes with rubber piping or tubing and relief required by a helpful assistant. Water cure with garden hose on full blast into the face “to sort of strangle them.” There was also the more conventual “dungeon treatment.” What makes it particularly distressing was these were teenagers and this was not ancient history. 1930 means some of these cured girls could very likely be alive. Eye catching choice of word “bares” in headline.
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Charles S Emerson in new story was a bit of a philanthropists so he left money to honor his brother. This is Emerson park in Milford, New Hampshire. A little levity may be of some avail after such a story.
http://nhlions.org/milford/UglyDogContest3.pdf
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Mar 23, 2013#96
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In 1866, at the Allston Grammar School in Cambridge, a major case of corporal punishment was addressed by the school committee. A teacher had struck a girl named Josephine Foster on the hands 15-20 times with a whip. The teachers explanation was that she had been whispering and had been acting so disorderly that she had to be held down by another teacher and the principal. Mr. and Mrs. Foster felt that this brutal act of punishment was unnecessary and they brought the case to trial. In the end, corporal punishment was not abolished and the case was closed, but this was the first time people had spoken out against corporal punishment. This shaped a major turning point in the way teachers treated their students.
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The first two links incorrectly mention male teachers whipping the girl. But as reliable as any news coming from Australia about 17-year-old girls and corporal punishment that can be expected in 2013 from Mrs BB.
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Now from the states.
The Rhode Island Schoolmaster, Volume 13.
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Dr. Morrill Wyman’s response I already posted. This was at the same time as Englishwoman Domestic Magazine was publishing about female corporal punishment as also already posted.
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Just FYI my resource.
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Apr 10, 2013#97
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Pro versus Con on SCP in Boston is rather early in our history 1885. A little girl in his school on hearing that there was a chance that corporal punishment in the schools, ejaculated – “Won’t it be nice; we’ll raise Ned.”
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Apr 11, 2013#98
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An excellent source for earlier materials about school corporal punishment is the Boston Evening Transcript 1888. Boston was an established city with schools of some size. Here is an interesting debate for and against school corporal punishment. Two centennial milestones within minutes.
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May 11, 2013#99
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This is an interesting anti-SCP stipulation is a will. I’ll be glad to give all my money, but you mustn’t spank the school kids! What makes this story even more remarkable and compelling is that it comes from Arkansas in 1929.
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2013 still swatting. I am sure if Greenwood invested $30,000 in 1929 it sure would come in handy. Why be mercenary?
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Another_Lurker
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May 11, 2013#100
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi American Way,
Around $408,000 if it had merely kept pace with inflation and not benefited from an investment premium, according to this US inflation calculator.
Mr Alexander was certainly remarkably advanced in his ideas for 1929. It would be interesting to know if CP was indeed abolished in the Public Schools of Greenwood, Arkansas in 1929, and if that situation has been maintained to date. I’ll leave that research to an expert like yourself.
I hope I’m proven wrong, but I’ll bet the relevant authorities accepted the legacy but displayed considerable ingenuity in legally by-passing and failing to implement the conditions attached to it. That is what frequently happens here when monies are bequeathed to public bodies for specific purposes or with conditions attached to their use. There’s no government as corrupt as local government (with the exception of course of our very own ‘Your Local Council’ ).</div>
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holyfamilypenguin
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May 25, 2013#101
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1903. The Outlook for Boys. Third column and last story. Third sentence is The teachers met on Saturday night, ate heartily and then discussed the necessity of whaling bad boys. The necessity of whaling bad boys. The last sentence is prescient. He is safe from the ferule, the switch and the slipper, except within the sacred precincts of his home; and when the police find time they will make rules prohibiting parents from spanking their children.
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1904. Can lick em. First story and first column. But the outlook dims for these wayward urchins.
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May 29, 2013#102
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1893. Boston or New York pondering versus pounding.
Although it too another 80 years for the state of New York to abolish, not so New York City. The comparisons and contrasts of NYC and Boston’s 11,000 incidences are mentioned here. Those who use “pounding” efficaciousness even then was consider worthy of pondering.
http://condor.cmich.edu/cdm/compoundobj … 878/rec/14
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Jun 01, 2013#103
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Here is a 1925 article on corporal punishment in the school and home. This estimable Forum elicits emotional responses but few can compare to this amusing espousal about corporal punishment. WOW!
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I assume Magistrate Lawrence T Gresser’s successful son was the beneficiary of his Daddy’s hands by his father’s way of thinking.
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Jul 04, 2013#104
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1903. May Spank the Scholars The Shamokin school board has decided to grant the teachers the right to administer corporeal punishment during the coming term. The pedagogues of Shmokin were denied that sweet privilege last year but the rule was not a success. This year, however, the teachers are not allowed to spank the youngsters while in the heat of passion, but must wait until after school, and then another teacher must be called in to witness the performance.
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Aug 02, 2013#105
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Archbishop Sheen background.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/c … s0100.html
Naughty Chair.
http://youtu.be/XGLG64Iy1SA?t=13m37s
November 26, 1960.
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Road to Sainthood.
http://www.archbishopsheencause.org/the-cause
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Aug 11, 2013#106
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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On being spanked. The amazing thing about this story is that before 1907 some schools had developed sound and similar policies of applying school corporal punishment to what is used today and then you have this article filled with amusing theories musings on the use of corporal punishment.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 11, 2013#107
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi American Way,
Phew, some controversial stuff in that PDF. You really should have appended a health warning. I mean, just look at this!
And this!
What planet were those people at The Long Island Daily Star living on in 1907?
Also there’s this:
Now I recognise that one. That’s pretty much how they used to keep boys in order in Junior School. Put each of us in a double desk with a girl. And we didn’t get the option of CP as an alternative.
BTW, I was amazed to find that PDF was editable, although complicated by the justification of the columns. I’d always assumed they were just images of newspaper pages.</div>
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KKxyz
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Aug 11, 2013#108
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The Star (New York) 11 November 1907
On Being Spanked.
A poll of the, public school principals shown a majority in favor of spanking.
Undoubtedly it would be easier to exclude boys and girls who seem in need of
spanking than to keep them in the schools and attempt to remodel and reform them there.
The boy who has never been spanked is a rarity, says the World. Looking back
upon the experiences of boyhood, the spankings are not unpleasant recollections.
As between being spanked or locked up in a dark closet, almost every boy would
choose spanking. As between a dozen strokes with a hickory rod or being made to
sit on a bench with a class of little girls who giggled and pointed their
fingers at him, any ordinary boy would choose the rod which would last only a
few minutes rather than the ignominy which would cling for a week or two.
An abstract, discussion of spanking involves two quite separate propositions,
one whether the boy or girl should be spanked, and the other as to who should
do the spanking.
On the first of these propositions, the general experience is that spanking
is good for boys. It is the opposite of mollycoddling. A boy is bound to be
spanked some time, and there are many kinds of spanking more painful than a
shingle or a slipper. The Heinzes have just had a severe spanking in United
Copper for which they would be glad to substitute their mother’s hand or their
father’s razor strap. Mr. Morse and Mr. Thomas have been experiencing a
chastising by the Clearing House committee to which a school teacher’s rod
would be a pleasant relief.
Ability to take a spanking profitably and gracefully cannot be too early
acquired. If a boy is sheltered from deserved punishment until he becomes
a man, the rebuffs which he receives from the world at large will fall on
tender skin instead of normal callousness. The boy who has learned to take
the spanking which he deserved and then go out and play with his school
fellows will develop into a man who can face business failure or political
defeat without despondency and make a better fight the next time through
having learned the reasons for his first failure.
In general a boy’s parents should do the necessary spanking, preferably
his father, because a father’s spankings are more likely to be adjusted
to the necessities of the case than a mother’s who is more tender-hearted.
Where the father and mother do their duty the school teacher should keep
his hands off.
Only in cases where the boy’s home discipline is defective should the school
teacher be called upon to supply the deficiency. As for girls, some girls
never need to be spanked. They are angelic babies, and they develop into
sweet, obedient school girls. When they violate a rule the sense of wrongdoing
hurts them more than a spanking. Of course, such girls need not be spanked at
all, though by the curious reversal of disposition which comes to many young
women, some most angelic girl babies become quite opposite in their adult years.
Such girls as need spanking should be spanked by their mothers and not by the
school teacher.
On the whole the general rule might be laid down that in case of doubt a
girl should not be spanked and a boy should, that is, if the boy is of the
normal healthy type who would rather fight another boy of his own size than
run. As for the cry-baby boys, their cases require even more careful
consideration than girls.
The candidates who were spanked on Tuesday would not mind it so much if
they had had practice as boys.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Aug 11, 2013#109
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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That 1911 posting may have been somewhat tongue in cheek.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 11, 2013#110
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi American Way,
As indeed was my comment on it, although the bit about my Junior School was absolutely true. But at least I was a good boy, and got to share a double desk with a good girl at the back of the class. Not so the bad boys. They had to share double desks with the bad girls at the front of the class. The poor boys were constantly terrified, and I don’t mean of the teacher! BTW I think the date of the newspaper concerned was 1907, not 1911.
Hi KK,
May I please enquire how you did that? Was it your excellent OCR method which you’ve been kind enough to describe previously, or direct copy/paste? If the latter I confess I certainly couldn’t have achieved such an excellent result without a vast amount of work.</div>
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KKxyz
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Aug 11, 2013#111
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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EAL,
I clicked on American Way’s hyperlink to the Fulton History PDF which I saved on my hard disk as a PDF.
I then opened the PDF at 300 pixels per inch using Photoshop “lite”. This high resolution is not justfied by the quality of the original but it gives large letters that suits my OCR software. Letters need to be at least 20 pixels high to get good recognition. Also, the large image size makes it easier to clean up the image before OCR.
Using Photoshop, I cropped the article from the whole newspaper page, straightened the image to give horozontal text lines, removed a few extraneous marks, and adjusted the brightness and contrast to give a more black and white and less grey image. I saved the result as a JPG.
I applied OmniPage SE4 to the saved JPG. There were quite a few suspect recognitions that needed manual confirmation or correction during OCR processing and a few undetected errors that needed correction subsequently. I use a word processor spell and grammar check to help me find errors.
The only reason I subjected the item to this treatment is because of its date (1907), place (NYC) and mention of various implements including the shingle but not the paddle. You will be aware of my <s>obsession with</s> interest in the origin of the US school paddle.
One of my guiding philosophies is recognition that total effort is reduced when posters post processed or digested info rather than just hyperlinks to sources. The extra work by the poster saves the multiple readers work and thus increases their number.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Aug 12, 2013#112
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I’ll unearth the hyperlinks and leave the rest to skill laborers. KK as soon as I saw shingle I was going to post it under your thread. Maybe our research compliments each other considering the geographical differences and orientations.
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Aug 12, 2013#113
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I’ll unearth the hyperlinks and leave the rest to skill laborers. KK as soon as I saw shingle I was going to post it under your thread. Maybe our research compliments each other considering the geographical differences and orientations.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 12, 2013#114
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Aug 30, 2013#115
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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94-year-old Buford Hartsong. Beckley, WV. I like “target to the audience” comment.
“I liked to have them come up and put their hands on the desk, target to the audience,” he said. “I tried to make it so when they got back to their seat, they wiped the tears in their eyes and they hesitated to sit down.”
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The dreaded switch.
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The dunce cap worn by a reluctant volunteer.
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Never too big!
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Teacher’s rules with identical or similar ones previously posted.
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Sep 02, 2013#116
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1905. Naughty Girl. Evelyn A Very Bad 15-year-old Girl. Paddling didn’t work for her.
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It is sad that with their lack of knowledge of health impairments these things ever occurred in the first place. I’m not ruling out that she was willfully defiant but these incidences were far too common. By 15 I would have hoped some knowledge of how the child was during her earlier years would have been a heads up about volitionality and accountability. I’m sure even now students with disabilities rendering the exculpable are being paddled. Look at the disparity.
Age matters. TWP certainly believes it will fade and doesn’t need outside interference but the stats would seem that paddling of 17 and 18-year-olds will come to an end in years without one.
Understandably people are slow to come around like prof n whose view on caning and paddling of older students has evolved in a relatively short period of time. I think if prof n administered corporal punishment and seen first hand its impact he would have opposed corporal punishment for that age group he would have come around sooner but he can speak for himself.
If the numbers perdure for decades would some believe it is a matter of a slow learning curve or should a larger entity than a principal or a school board should intervene? It sure would take some of the wind out of the anti SCP opposition.
Teens are being paddled for things less than criminals like chronic tardiness. Would this have happened at her first job if she was given the choice between that or paddling? It’s happening as I type. Should Nancy have been given a choice even to the point of examining her instrument of correction? Was the days prior to the paddling worse than the paddling judging by her face in the second link? The third link provides a true account that was made into a movie. Should naughty teenage girl being treated like a child? Should one at that age even be thinking it’s OK to be spanked for a crime fully clothed?
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Another_Lurker
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Sep 02, 2013#117
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hi American Way,
What would I do to keep my mind active if it wasn’t for you?
Your first link above is to a .jp2 file. Now I don’t think it is unfair to say that the JPEG2000 format didn’t exactly set the world on fire. I haven’t got any software on board to open this format, and indeed in the 12 years since the format was introduced I think this is the first time I’ve encountered one!
As I don’t want to download software specially to open the above file I’ve simply linked direct to page 7 of the issue of the Morning Oregonian for 28 December 1905, which looking at the .jp2 file with a hex editor I see to be the relevant newspaper page. Here is the link. The report on the behaviour of 15 year old bad girl supreme Evelyn Mensor of Seattle and her misadventures at the Chehalis Reform School is to be found at the bottom of column 5, under the horse racing results. It is a rather more complete report than the one in your second link above, which is from the following day’s issue of the paper.
Reading of her record and why she was sent to the Reform School I’d say that Ms Mensor was an eminently suitable candidate for the paddle! I just don’t think that the harassed Superintendent Reed and his over-burdened staff used a big enough paddle often enough and hard enough!
A few days later Ms Mensor also featured in Centralia News Examiner (formerly the Chehalis Examiner) for 5 January 1906. This says that before being put in jail in Seattle prior to transfer to the Chehalis Reform School she was examined for insanity but found to be sane.
As for your picture links to the two tiny pictures of Nancy Guillen, what on earth is the use of a 120 × 90 pixel image? I’ve told you before, big is beautiful!
Now if they’d used a paddle like that on Ms Mensor at the Chehalis Reform School, who knows, she might have gone home a reformed character. After all, look what it did for Nancy! </div>
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KKxyz
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Sep 02, 2013#118
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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holyfamilypenguin
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Oct 05, 2013#119
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Children have their say 1910 on corporal punishment. My winner is Beatrice Cheda, Whipping Hardens the Heart. I’m sure others would agree that irrespective of your views she is a remarkable 10-year-old. I wonder how many in the “text generation” can write as well? Maybe the teachers too should be getting paddled here for demanding less today, being paid a fortune and blaming the families. It nauseates me when they complain as taxpayers work twice as hard (about 365 days to 180 days) and more hours. Teachers arriving 15 minutes before the bell and clearing out 15 minutes after leaving all but a few cars in the parking lot is not all that uncommon. That’s not or at least shouldn’t be the American Way.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ … 27%2C6406/
Others receiving awards.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/ … /seq-4.pdf
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Oct 11, 2013#120
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Note the second column penultimate article. Will the paddle soon be history? Will school tours soon feature the paddle like the dunce cap in the south? Doesn’t Connecticut sound like the last enclaves of districts where the paddles still swing and where people think that like the paddle the pendulum will swing?
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Nov 03, 2013#121
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Confessions of a school master. . Alcott, William A. (William Andrus), 1798-1859.
I think you will find SECTION 12 (Discipline) of this book well written as well as worth reading. It is from page 302 ff. Please let me know what you think.
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A key word to follow the relevant passages pertaining to corporal punishment is rod
On a lighter note, here is a rather unusual alternative to corporal punishment.
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As another access vehicle to the book is found in this link.
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Another_Lurker
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Nov 03, 2013#122
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hello American Way,
An most interesting find! I have not had time to read much of the book, but one extract caught my eye:
How true that is, even today!
Of course if it is a choice between the rod and boxing children’s ears or hanging them up by their heels I think the rod is always going to be preferable, even if it means that it is used a little more frequently than would otherwise be the case! </div>
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Dec 15, 2013#123
Note the second column penultimate article. Will the paddle soon be history? Will school tours soon feature the paddle like the dunce cap in the south? Doesn’t Connecticut sound like the last enclaves of districts where the paddles still swing and where people think that like the paddle the pendulum will swing?
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In the UK with the passing of time without corporal punishment will the strap soon be treated like a barbaric relic? Please don’t tell Jenny if they had a gentler strap named Victoria.
A lot of people have mentioned the corporal punishment and told me how they even gave the strap a name – Albert!
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A display that includes leather straps used to discipline children hanging on the wall.
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Another_Lurker
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Dec 15, 2013#124
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif);”>Hello American Way,
Hmm, ‘country school’? I guess you’ve never been to Heaton<font></font>!
As has often been recorded here, parts of Newcastle were indeed partial to the strap rather than the cane. Heaton featured in the notorious Heaton riots of January 1976, when schoolgirls, told that the strap used on their male classmates would now also be used on them, ran amok, besieging their school and terrifying teachers and policemen. Well something like that, anyway!
The school concerned was a secondary comprehensive school, but doubtless some of the young ladies involved would have been at the Chillingham Road Primary School earlier in their school career. One of your above links records that in the October 2013 exhibition of the history of the Chillingham Road Primary school there was:
If some of those stern school mistresses were from the early 1970s and used those straps on girlish palms they may even have indirectly been responsible for precipitating the Heaton Riots, in that girls so punished in the past would be only too aware of the painful implications of the new regime when it was announced by the Headmaster of their subsequent secondary school!</div>
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Dec 15, 2013#125
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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My response was to the MESSAGE TITLE that had the word “country”. I was aware of the riot and knew it was not “country”. News about school girl punishment rarely passes my radar screen.
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Dec 15, 2013#126
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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My response was to the MESSAGE TITLE that had the word “country”. I was aware of the riot and knew it was not “country”. News about school girl punishment rarely passes my radar screen.
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Feb 03, 2014#127
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Ontario Jail. April 1920. Excerpts os Spanking Is Revived story. It’s not possible to place young men of 17 to 22 over the knee of the slapper “like mother used to.” As is the case with Canada the strap was the instrument of correction. No! he is not even stripped. Only the section of the anatomy especially arranged by nature for the purpose of spanking was laid bare. They took their medicine well. It is the outrage to the feelings of the culprit which has the salutary effect. It is declared “they feel like two cents.”
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Feb 04, 2014#128
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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This is an addendum to an account of a female pupil, Josephine Foster, being corporally punished in a posting on March 23 2013.
Prior posted.
Corporal Punishment in Beverly and Cambridge, MA: Just, or Just Plain Mean?
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Addendum.
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Mar 01, 2014#129
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Josephine Foster corporal punishment follow up from above posting.
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Priorly posted here by yours truly. 1869.
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Excerpted. Corporal punishment of marriageable girls.
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Report in good condition available on ebay for collectors. $20.
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Mar 22, 2014#130
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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HH 1949 is a step back in time but what would you account for the Canadian differential in opinions about school corporal punishment? Although forbidden in France for many years prior to 1949 there are many anecdotal accounts where there were more than a few incidences that it was not strictly enforced even to more recent times especially in parochial schools.
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HH2012
836
Mar 23, 2014#131
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi <strong>AW</strong>, an interesting article and an interesting question! I cannot explain this except to say this trend carries through to today.
The first 2 Canadian oublic school boards to ban SCP were both in Quebec ca.1965. Ironically, Quebec was NOT the first provice to ban SCP, BC was in 1973. A total of 7 provinces and territories provincially banned SCP before Quebec did in 1997.
<font size=”3″ face=”Cambria,Cambria”><font face=”Times New Roman”>However, polls on the Global initiative site show the lowest support for Cdn PCP today in Quebec, rising in Ontario and rising as you go further into the conservative western provinces (MB, SK, AB) but declining again in the more socialist/welfare province of BC.</font></font>
<font size=”3″ face=”Cambria,Cambria”><font face=”Times New Roman”>Quebec is the only province I know that has prohibited all forms of physical correction (including parental) in it’s “Civil Code”. But that doesn’t mean anything while they’re superceded by the Federal Criminal Code sec.43</font></font>
<font size=”3″ face=”Cambria,Cambria”><font face=”Times New Roman”>A majority QC seperatist gov’t, as is being anticipted in the upcoming election, may change all that. And if Quebec finally leaves, it may become the first North American CP-ban country! Good for them! but I’ll stay here </font></font><font size=”3″ face=”Cambria,Cambria”></font>
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Mar 23, 2014#132
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I should add … while it is true that SCP was banned in France ca.1887 (but lingerred on in certain settings long long after) I am unconvinced the this heritage has any effect on the opinions of Quebecers. They are their own “nation” and dislike the French probably as much as they dislike everyone else.
Consider that France is one of the “non-compliant” EU countries who told the boys in Brussels “no thanks” and they still allow PCP. Again, last polls I have shows 84% support for PCP in France. Yet, Quebec has the lowest support for it in my country so this really rules out any “heritage” link in my mind.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Apr 22, 2014#133
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The Transit of Civilization from England to America in the Seventeenth Century – Edward Eggleston
An interesting account on the transfer of school corporal punishment between England and the colonies. Just search within the book for “willow” and the relevant passage will come up. The hickory stick was too tempting of an instrument of correction not to be used.
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Apr 27, 2014#134
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An amusing 1950 editorial from the the Glasgow Herald.
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AlanTuringBletchley
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Apr 27, 2014#135
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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It’s astonishing because, despite appearing in the Glasgow Herald in 1950, it is in fact an article about the CP policy of Middlesex County Council, to the north-west of central London.
Now I know about Middlesex County Council; that’s where I went to school. (The Borough of Willesden had an education officer, so in fact I’m surprised that there was a county education authority as well; maybe I’ll check up on that.) But I see that the report says
The code also prescribes the prohibition of any form of correction which would be likely to affect adversely the mental or physical development of the child, such as boxing the ears, striking on the head, or rapping the knuckles.
Admittedly it was nearly ten years later, but our class teacher in 1959-60 would frequently give naughty boys a rap on the knuckles with a ruler. But perhaps it was “unofficial”! In fact, I have a strong feeling that pretty well all the classroom punishments I witnessed at that school in the years 1957-61, including the infamous slippering that got me interested in this in the first place, were unofficial.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Apr 27, 2014#136
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Alan I got it on the knuckles in that same time period.
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hcsj44
1,211
Apr 28, 2014#137
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Alan Turing wrote:
Now I know about Middlesex County Council; that’s where I went to school. (The Borough of Willesden had an education officer, so in fact I’m surprised that there was a county education authority as well; maybe I’ll check up on that.)
My experience in the neighbouring Borough of Hendon, which also had its own Education Officer, closely matches yours.
As to the Middlesex Education Committee, I recall that the exercise books issued to us had the Middlesex name and crest printed on the front cover. Somewhere, I think I have one remaining example.
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AlanTuringBletchley
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Apr 28, 2014#138
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hcj, you’re quite right. I’ve just taken a look at my old report book from that school, and it has a crest on the front with the wording “The County Council of Middlesex”.
Now that I come to think of it, education is generally a county rather than a borough (or, these days, district) responsibility.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
May 08, 2014#139
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Pedagogues may have seem some benefit to corporal punishment being inflicted upon their peers years ago. Absent college fraternities and sororities that is not very common. Here are a few examples.
Kangaroo court. Rev Dr G. B. F. Howard. Tennessee minister gets a taste of Ohio justice.
September 26, 1899
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Kansas City journal.Febreuary 18, 1899
Inmate participation.
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A scholastic kangaroo court referenced here from 1921 in California with unique sentences found in the last paragraph.
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Tennessee Williams Memoirs 1975.
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Page. 26
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You going to have to keep posting. I’ll be cutting back on my postings somewhat. I have to get involved in a few outdoor activities now that the weather has taken a turn for the better. I will be taking my first balloon trip. I’m not too keen on it. Why? Once I was playing tennis I was startled for in nearby woods I heard high pitch screaming. Puzzled my opponent and I made an eye level search from where the noise seemed to becoming from. Suddenly we heard look up. The balloon was stuck in some branches filled with young women. I called the police. The fire department came with a ladder. I returned to the match and we got back into the swing of things. Tennis defies distraction.
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Another_Lurker
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May 08, 2014#140
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(“/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif”);”>Hello American Way,
While excellent for you, your announced intention to devote more time to your outdoor activities is sad news for this estimable Forum! Your reduced contribution rate will be a substantial check to recovery after sad events here. I hope that you will not desert us completely. When you go up in that balloon make sure you keep well away from young women. Your own experience is a good indicator that they are best avoided – especially around balloons! Meantime I shall be accumulating those nuns for that 800th post celebration in another thread that you hinted at recently.
Some interesting links in your above contribution. A ‘Kangaroo Court’ is a familiar term in British English for an unofficial and often somewhat biased quasi-judicial process, but I don’t recall seeing the term applied to the actual execution of the sentence not the process which gave rise to it, as is the case in your third link regarding the Palo Alto Union High School students. Nor have I previously encountered the execution of the sentence described as being kangarooed as in your first link regarding the Rev Dr G. B. F. Howard.
The Reverend Howard and his exploits have I think been linked here before on various occasions. The inquisitive may wonder how the Reverend, the son of a retired London UK policeman, an ordained clergyman, holder of a Doctorate of Divinity from Auburn University, Alabama and former Professor of Oratory at the South-western Baptist University, came to find himself at the age of 46 in the undignified position of being bent over a barrel in the punishment room of Ohio State Penitentiary and given a ‘good spanking’ with a wooden paddle by a muscular prison official as punishment for a two year long prison break. The answer is to be found in a link provided by KK in his contribution here.
Those who also consult my post here concerning the financial implications of the Reverend’s exploits may conclude that he got off lightly with 10 years imprisonment (and a paddling). </div>
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
May 09, 2014#141
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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A_L. Good catch on KK reference to the clergyman. I try not to do that but I’m human. It’s no disrespect to KK. I am accessible to civilization.
Kangaroo court Palo Alto prior posted.
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May 10, 2014#142
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Some of my group have cancelled. I tell them these things do happen.
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Another_Lurker
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May 11, 2014#143
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(“/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif”);”>Hello American Way,
Fear not! I think such accidents are happily rare nowadays. I live on a major balloon flight path. The prevailing winds carry them from a pleasantly rural but accessible launch site several miles away to a nearby excellent landing site with refuelling facilities for the burners. It is not unusual for a dozen or more to come over on a summer evening in a somewhat extended convoy.
I have never seen one burn. However one did demolish part of the roof of a nearby house and make a crash landing in an adjacent garden when the burner fuel ran out a little short of salvation!
No criticism was intended of your coverage of the Reverend Dr G. B. F. Howard, professor, pastor, purloiner and prisoner and his penitentiary paddling. I linked KK’s find because it was a very comprehensive account of how the Reverend had come to find himself pinioned over a barrel and severely paddled at the age of 46. He must have been a remarkable man in many ways. High academic and clerical achievement, and embezzled $50million in today’s money.
Indeed, getting himself paddled in prison at the age of 46 represents an achievement of sorts! He must have been a robust chap! The average life expectancy of American males in that year was only 46, so it was the equivalent of being judicially whacked at age 76! in today’s terms!</div>
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
May 29, 2014#144
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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School Corporal Punishment San Francisco Gold Rush.
In San Francisco, for example, the population grew from 1,000 in 1848 to over 20,000 by 1850.
Sacramento Daily Union October 1857
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Los Angelos 1980
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Jul 17, 2014#145
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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An interesting revisit of the issue in 2007.
Discussion about penalties for bad student. The children’s expressions are amusing as well as the teacher’s open palm. What a span! At least to me.
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In Carinthia, Upper Austria pushes demand the Regional School Board “Teachers should be able to punish students harder” incomprehension
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Jul 19, 2014#146
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I tamed the meangerie and never struck one of the beasts a blow. 1887 paper looking back 40 years before.
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Sep 10, 2014#147
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The St. Louis Republic January 25, 1903
Now in seventeen terms of teaching school one is likely to get some strong ideas about discipline. There are some boys who can only be reached in one way and that by a good whipping I have gone on
that theory I don’t flog often, but when I
do, it is for keeps. No pupil has ever been
flogged a second time by me – once is
always enough. He remembers it the rest of
his natural days.
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Sep 13, 2014#148
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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How old is too old for girls too be subjected to corporal punishment?
Of the twenty-eight who ventured an opinion on the maximum age when girls were given corporal punishment, ten said age ten; ten cast their votes for twelve; one for thirteen; six for fourteen; and one for age sixteen. The median age was 11.9 years.
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What constitutes immoderate corporal punishment?
This was moderate.
Thirty three blows with a green mesquite switch delivered by a twenty-nine-year-old male teacher upon a twelve-year-old boy is not immoderate or unreasonable punishment for writing an indecent note about a girl, also a pupil in the school, although the blows left stripes, bruises, and blue places on the boy’s legs.
This was immoderate.
Sixty-six blows of the hand, which caused the pupil to be bruised and stiff, does not constitute moderate, and the teacher administering such punishment was properly convicted of assault, although the pupil remained insubordinate through sixty-three blows.
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Oct 02, 2014#149
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Many perhaps are surprised that the office of civil rights record so precisely the times corporal punishment is applied. This is a practice that extends back in time here.
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Oct 04, 2014#150
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Cases of corporal punishment of Boston boys in 1902 by grades.
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Source.
Proceedings of the School Committee of the City of Boston.
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KKxyz
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Oct 04, 2014#151
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Source: https://archive.org/details/proceedingsofsch1902bost
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HH2012
836
Oct 04, 2014#152
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi AW and KK, Great Stuff!
KK! You and I both know that posting a table with breakdowns of punishment distributions are just going to bait me, aren’t they?
I scanned the entire PDF and to my consternation, I simply cannot find what the entire enrollment for the Boston School Board was during this school year. You would figure in 600+ pages of all & sundry such important figures would be published. Before I comment on the above (as you completely should expect I would!!! ), could anyone kindly see if they can find the Boston School Board enrollments for 1902 in the text???
As an aside, it appears here that only boys were CP’d, at least by the wording of the presentation. Poor girls, once again denied the benefits of something only reserved for boys. Oh well, it was over a 100 years ago and that type of thinking was commonplace back then
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Oct 04, 2014#153
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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HH some statistical data regarding Boston School Census.
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Oliver_Sydney
899
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Oct 04, 2014#154
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi HH
Found it at last on p299. In June 1902:
Pupils attending high schools 6,416
Cost per pupil…. . $84 88
Pupils attending grammar schools 41,858
Cost per pupil . 31 76
Pupils attending primary schools . 31,545
Cost per pupil . 24 67
On p10 where it said 2230 teachers.
On p187-188 it says that the average size of a class in the grammar school is 48.6, and 48.3 in primary school (Jan 1902)
Boston pop in 1901 was 560K, if which 145K were under 15 (http://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/1901.pdf )
Some interesting asides:
On p120 One of our Supervisors said: “I am not in favor of this Teachers’ College.
The schools of Boston have deteriorated in the last ten years owing to the large number of Boston trained girls, who have been appointed to teach in these schools. It would be better for the city to employ more country bred and country trained teachers.
The teachers who come from the country have more common sense and better judgment, and make better teachers. I believe that we should go into the outlying districts and bring in the best teachers.”
There was a smallpox epidemic in Boston 1901-03 and major battle over vaccination (http://www.vaccinationnews.org/DailyNew … emic11.htm )
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Oct 04, 2014#155
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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So that indicates about 70K students in grammar and primary schools.
Presumably that means about 35K boys, of whom rather less than 6K received CP (17%). Less than 4% received CP more than once.
There was discussion on Dec 23 on p501-505:
The question of whether or not corporal punishment shall be permitted in the public schools of Boston has arisen frequently, and each time that it has been discussed the result has been a marked decrease in the number of cases, with no apparent injury to the discipline or efficiency of the schools.
In 1807 the matter was very fully considered and an elaborate defence of corporal punishment was made in a report by Mr. Henry A. Drake. This report has been frequently quoted as an authority on that side of the question. In it, however, Mr. Drake is careful to limit the use of corporal punishment to “cases of gross impropriety, wilful and determined disobedience, and to persistent defiance of the regulations, or to the authority of the teacher,” adding: “To this extent and no further do we propose to advocate it.” In another part of his report Mr. Drake says: “Teachers lacking in capacity to govern or instruct, too often attempt to supply their deficiency in personal power by the frequent use of the rod, ‘ keeping school ‘ with a book in one hand and a stick in the other —- the most perfect personification of petty tyranny.
Nothing looks more suspicious than the constant occurrence of such reasons for corporal punishment as impertinence, inattention, disorder, restlessness, disturbance, playing, tardiness, not one of which, unless aggravated in its character, is worthy of it, but should be met by some other form of punishment. The kind, sympathetic teacher rarely reports impertinence as a cause for punishment, for it is generally the reflection in the pupil, of anger, undeserved reproof, or bitter sarcasm on the part of the teacher. Children would be more than human to sit quietly under the taunts and jokes which we have known some teachers to indulge in. Inattention and restlessness too often originate in the teacher’s lack of ability to make the studies interesting; disorder, disturbance, playing, in a want of that quiet power which makes itself constantly felt as a check upon the pupils, or it may be in a most foolish waste of power, by attempting to enforce too strict discipline.”
On p504:
<i>Sect. 218. All instructors shall endeavor to maintain such discipline in their schools as is exercised by a kind and judicious parent in his family , avoiding corporal punishment in all cases where good order can be preserved by milder measures; and in no case resorting to confinement in a closet or wardrobe, or to any cruel or unusual punishment. Corporal punishment shall be inflicted only after the nature of the offence has been fully explained to the pupil, shall not be inflicted in sight of other pupils, and shall be restricted to blows on the hand with a rattan. At the close of the day each instructor shall report in writing to the principal all cases of corporal punishment during such day, stating the name of the pupil, the amount of the punishment, and the reason for its infliction.
The principal shall each month report to the Superintendent the number of all cases of corporal punishment, within his district, by whomsoever inflicted. The reports of cases of corporal punishment required by Sections 195 and 218 shall be made on blanks prepared for the purpose, and shall be •preserved on file by the principal of each district for two years, at the end of which time they shall be destroyed. These reports shall be open to the inspection of members of the Board, the Superintendent, and the Supervisors. Corporal punishment shall not be inflicted upon girls in any school, or upon boys in High Schools.</i>
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HH2012
836
Oct 04, 2014#156
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Thanks AW and especially great work by Oliver Sydney for coming up with various salient facts!!!
Yes, I read the numbers as you do: 73,400 enrollments indicates 36,700 boys. (Interesting to note that the regulations Oliver found not only prohibit CP for girls but also for boys in High School)
8,055 CP incidents represents an annual CP admin rate of 22%. Amazingly, that measure is exactly in line with the average of 21.9% from the 13 institutions in my “CP, Is It Effective?” study.
The incidents represent 15.7% of boys enrolled were punished in the year, 12.1% only once, 3.6% more than once. 4,449 of 5,769 boys were only punished once in a year, representing 77% of CP’d boys (and inferring 77% efficacy by recidivism requiring another CP punishment). The 13 institutions totalled 72% of punished pupils were punished once in a year and 28% more than once (p.70). What this means is that compared to a broad sampling, there was greater hesitancy to mete CP more often than once in a year compared to a broad sampling of other environments.
What I found a little unusual is the distribution of CP meted by Grade (see chart)
The was a notable rise in incidents to grade 4 (9-10 y.o.) and then subsides as the boys grew older. This curve is shifted into the earlier years. the normal observation is that the curve continues to rise to a maximum at the ages of 14-16 and then drops off sharply. I account for this by the phenomenon that CP becomes less of a deterrent “knowing it can be used” as the boy ages – he’s simply less afraid of it happening… and it becomes more of a deterrent by having to experience it, for those who are deterred by such experience (the non-serial recidivists).
I’m also intrigued by the regulation stating a rattan (caning) on the hands only. If you didn’t know better, you’d think it was a school in England! Very unusual considering the comments regarding French influences in Boston that KK made in the “first mention” thread!
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Oct 09, 2014#157
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Go ahead Hit Me With It Sean.
Robi Ludwig, Psy.D., Psychotherapist, TV commentator and Author.
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To spank or not to spank, that is the question?
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Spanked and turned out fine.
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Oct 26, 2014#158
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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To spank or not to spank? The ayes have it. In America democracy rules. Let’s just call it the American Way.
The Indianapolis Journal, March 13, 1904
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Oct 29, 2014#159
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Thorough debate on the issue of corporal punishment from a nineteenth century perspective can be found here.
1881 Annual Report of the School Committee of the City of Boston By Boston (Mass.).
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Oct 29, 2014#160
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1890 Annual Report of the School Committee of the City of Boston.
N.B. Before and after the “agitation” and the subsequent statistical record of misbehavior and corporal punishment.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Dec 01, 2014#161
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The evening world. (New York, N.Y.) November 17, 1893
Tough love 1893 style. Raising welts on the hides of embryo outlaws in a juvenile asylum.
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Jan 05, 2015#162
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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School corporal punishment debates from a historical perspective on what constitutes “humanely.” The buttocks seem to be often avoided as targets. Do you think that had anything to do with the sexual mores of their time?
The Art of School Management: A Textbook for Normal Schools and Normal Institutes, and a Reference Book for Teachers, School Officers, and Parents. Joseph Baldwin. 1896
II. INFLICTION OF CORORAL PUNISHMENT.
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Another_Lurker
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Jan 05, 2015#163
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(“/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif”);”>Hello American Way,
You said above of SCP as advocated in your latest find, the 1896 text book ‘The Art of School Management’ by Joseph Baldwin:
Possibly. On another page the author suggests avoiding indignity for the pupil wherever possible, which I guess militates against whacks on the posterior! However, on page 179 he quotes another authority as including the ‘lower extremities’ in the desirable target areas, as well as the ‘back and shoulders’ recommended in the section you link.
I’m not sure what ‘lower extremities’ means. It might be an oblique reference to the buttocks, but then again it might mean the thighs, much favoured by lady teachers as a target for SCP in my childhood, or the calves, as popular in some Eastern Nation schools for SCP, or even the soles of the feet as punished in the schools of some Middle East and Eastern Nations. My money’s on the buttocks though.
Interesting that the author advocates use of the birch as a punishment implement. He was President of the Normal School at Kirksville, Missouri when he wrote the book. I must say I wouldn’t previously have associated the birch as an SCP implement with the Mid-West in 1896! It was in its death throes as a school punishment even over here by then I think. Indeed, I wouldn’t have associated the birch with the US at all.
To me the most curious feature is that he recommends lecturing the pupil for ‘a minute or two’ between each ‘single stinging blow’. Blimey, six of the best could turn into a 10 minute epic! In fairness though he does say that 3 or 4 strokes should be sufficient.</div>
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KKxyz
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Jan 05, 2015#164
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The ground shook again as I wrote this.
The art of school management A textbook for normal schools and normal institutes, and a reference book for teachers, school officers, and parents
By Joseph Baldwin, New York, 1892
http://hdl.handle.net/2027/uc1.$b305935 … %3Bseq=182
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Apr 19, 2015#165
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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High School Quarterly: Volume 4 – January 1, 1915
Surprising results.
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KKxyz
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Apr 19, 2015#166
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Corporal Punishment in the High School – A Symposium We recently sent out an inquiry to the leading high schools in ten Southern states to determine the extent to which corporal punishment is used. One hundred and sixty-five schools responded.
A study of these replies shows the following conditions:
47% of the schools had no cases of corporal punishment during the year 1915-16. 32% had from 1 to 5 cases. 16% had from 6 to 20 cases. 5% had from 20 to 75 cases.
There were 16,686 male students enrolled in the 165 schools reporting. Of these 52% were in schools that had no corporal punishment.
26% were in schools that had from 1 to 5 cases.
21% were in schools that had from 6 to 20 cases.
1% were in schools that had from 20 to 75 cases.
There were reported 655 cases of corporal punishment.
5% of the schools representing 1% of the students administered 40% of the whippings.
16% of the schools, representing 21% of the students, having 6 to 20 cases during the year administered 22% of the whippings.
Thus we see that 21 % of the schools representing 23% of the students received 62% of all the whippings.
47% of the schools representing 52% of the students administered no corporal punishment.
79% of the school representing 78% of the students were so governed that from 0 to 5 cases of corporal punishment were found necessary during the year. These figures seem to show that the large majority of our high schools are run successfully with little or no corporal punishment and that the more frequently the rod is used the greater seems the necessity for its application. Eight schools with a total enrollment of 1675 boys whipped 40% of the boys reported as having received corporal punishment, while 8672 boys attended schools for the year without any one of them receiving a whipping.<i>
etc.
This was before compulsory high school attendance. All those in high school would have been willing there with high parental expectations.</i>
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Apr 19, 2015#167
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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USA Compulsory Education. 1915
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Why such disparity between schools? What would be consider age appropriate behavior on the high school level? On more than one occasion I have mentioned the membrane factor or what’s the gap between behavior expectations between home and school?
The student handbooks are so similar in the south it makes you wonder why such disparities? The differential may have to do with when the trigger is squeezed. The enforcement (gender differentials for example) or the steps between non-corporal and corporal sanctions may play a more significant factor than the rules themselves.
How reliable are the OCR reports? Chances are there are a lot more under-reporting than over-reporting.God only knows in faith-based schools where they pray and paddle simultaneously. It reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition.
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Jun 15, 2015#168
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Re: Reinstitution of Corporal Punishment in New York City.
The Commercial Advertiser New York January 18, 1904
Under School and College.
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Jun 18, 2015#169
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Last story third column. Art of Spanking.
Bulletin sent to teacher in 1929. Where would you find this other than in this estimable Forum?
http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspapers … .html&.pdf
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Another_Lurker
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Jun 19, 2015#170
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Jun 19, 2015#171
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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I must have been asleep to forget to preview.
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Another_Lurker
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Jun 19, 2015#172
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(“/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif”);”>Hello American Way,
Ah well, no great harm done. Anybody running a screen resolution of 1580 pixels horizontal or greater will still be able to get the thread on screen without scrolling sideways. As noted above, it could have been much worse!
I think that 1929 advice to schoolteachers in Miami, Florida regarding administering SCP
must have been the advice still being given to lady teachers in my UK primary school in the late 1940s and early 1950s. They certainly liked to operate on the middle third or so of that ‘territory’ and a rapid readjustment of skirts, dresses or the legs of short trousers quickly ensured that it was indeed ‘open’. </div>
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Aug 03, 2015#173
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The Spokane press., September 07, 1903
An eminent eastern jurists has discovered that it proper for a parent to spank a 16-year-old-daughter.
The right to spank is an inalienable right of every parent. It seems to be the only please a lot of parents get out of them.
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Aug 06, 2015#174
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This is a very detailed and interesting article on corporal. I hope some of our readers will find themselves in agreement and share their impressions.
Boston Evening Transcript – Oct 27, 1880
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Aug 28, 2015#175
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You cannot make up a name like J Wood Raw for a principal who gave his pupil 71 whacks in Reno NV in 1961. The boy was uncomfortable when sitting for three days. The father sued for $1,000 a swat but 18 months later the charges were dismissed. The Judge John J Barrett said after that 6th grade paddling the behavior was exemplary in the seventh and eighth grade and what he needed.
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J Wood Raw. RIP 2011.
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He was held in high regard.
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 28, 2015#176
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(“/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif”);”>Hello Anerican Way,
I am very grateful for your efforts, and I realise that all the other demands on your time mean that sometimes keeping this estimable Forum supplied with interesting items has to be a little rushed, leaving you less opportunity than you would wish to research, compose and post your excellent contributions.
In the circumstances I hope you won’t mind my pointing out that although you wrote above
the newspaper article you link makes it clear that it was actually teacher, Alson [sic] Moser, who got out the paddle and administered the 71 whacks to the posterior of 11 year old Larry Franks, with vice principal (not principal) J Wood Raw looking on. Alson is an unusual male forename. Or possibly it might have been a misprint for Alison.
Now dropping a wad of bubble gum picked up off the floor down the back of a girl’s dress is not a nice thing to do but 71 licks does seem rather excessive. It appears to have been one lick for each accrued demerit and one for the current offence and we are told that the demerit system and its consequences was devised by the kids themselves, so that’s all right then!
We are not told who had dropped the bubble gum on the floor. There is I suppose a possibility that it might have been the girl herself and that young Larry was merely being socially responsible in bringing the undesirability of such an action to her attention, but chose an unfortunate method of delivering the message. Either way I hope the girl got to watch young Larry get his swats, as moral restitution for her discomfort or, if she had dropped the bubble gum herself, while she waited her turn for teacher Moser’s paddle! </div>
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Guest
Aug 28, 2015#177
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hi y’all,
Well I do believe paddling works in many cases, but you DON’T need anywhere near 71 swats, no matter who invented the system. I don’t disapprove of a demerit system which has moderate paddling as a reasonable sanction after say double digit demerits, but just a few licks to wipe away the accumulated debt!
This system may have been instituted by the student body because it panders to two ‘ethics’ . One, the number of demerits is so high no reasonably behaved student has any chance of being punished, BUT equally , number two, anyone who IS that stupid will provide a Roman Carnival for everyone else.
Lets be controversial. I believe from simple personal observation that men and women paddle differently. Men tend to paddle their favorites ( often including pretty girls) less and softer than those they dislike, whom they will paddle hard. Women on the other hand are more even handed, treating the sexes and races more evenly and if anything understanding special needs better.
However, women are less even in their treatment of the student post paddling, being prepared to offer support and reassurance to infrequently paddled. Whereas men tend to treat all miscreants as disgraced lesser mortals who shouldn’t darken their door.
No scientific evidence. just my ‘gut’ and years of teaching.
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Aug 29, 2015#178
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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<div style=”width:100%;background-image:url(“/realm/A_L_123/A_L_trg.gif”);”>Hello Debbie112,
You make in interesting observations above. Hopefully others will wish to comment, but in any event I shall naturally put in my two pennorth!
You said of the attainment of the ultimate penalty associated with the ‘totting up’ punishment procedure allegedly derived by the 6th grade students at Sparks School, Reno, Nevada in 1959:
An interesting description. I have sometimes used the term ‘bread and circuses’, the method often used by Roman heads of state to keep the turbulent Roman underclass quiescent and off the streets, to describe the classroom management technique employed by some teachers in my school days.
This involved an implied contract between teacher and class. The teacher provided entertainment for the class, often by some less than serious SCP which caused discomfiture and embarrassment for the victim and jolly good entertainment for the rest of the class. The class in return pretty much did what the teacher wanted, or at least don’t cause him or her any trouble.
And, as I think you probably imply, young Larry’s 71 swat paddling surely cannot have been anything other than ‘bread and circuses at its most extreme. Despite the claims of the boy’s father, who doubtless scented easy cash, I cannot believe that the lad’s 71 swats could have been other than taps. One can practically hear the rest of the class chanting in unison ‘sixty-nine, seventy, seventy-one’.
You also made an interesting comparison between the methods of male and female teachers when administering SCP. You said:
Hmm, that makes me wonder if I was a beneficiary of that effect in my one and only Junior School slippering. Though I remember it for other reasons I can’t recall the actual whacks at all and they must presumably have been very light. The male teacher wielding the slipper had never taught me, but he’d certainly have known of my reputation as the academic star of the ‘A’ stream.
However when the prettiest girl in my class was slippered by another male teacher she got the hardest and most distressing slippering I saw at that school, for a very trivial offence. We had a male ex-teacher posting here once who admitted to having deliberately hunted down and slippered pretty girls. Admittedly reading between the lines he wasn’t overly proud of this in retrospect but certainly not all male teachers went easy on pretty girls.
And you said of women teachers:
The female teacher who administered my one significant dose of SCP was certainly even handed (and extremely hard and heavy handed too ). The girl from her own class first in the queue just in front of me got smacked just as hard as I did. So much so that I was pretty petrified at the prospect by the time it came to my turn! But no, the teacher didn’t display any understanding of the juvenile Another_Lurker’s special need to be let of lightly or preferably let off altogether. I got exactly what the girl had got.
You also said of women teachers:
Not much of that from the female teachers in my Primary School I’m afraid! The teacher administering the punishment referred to above certainly didn’t dispense any post punishment support and reassurance, but I suppose she had an excuse, she’d got the rest of a long queue to deal with. But when myself and my two classmates in the queue, all first-timers for any sort of SCP, returned to our own class our female teacher, normally the nicest of teachers, didn’t give us any support or reassurance either.
Instead she had us standing hands on heads and still in tears at the front of the class while she explained to our classmates that we’d been very naughty and that we’d been spanked, and that they must all behave when they moved up to the top class very soon, or they might be spanked too. Many of them didn’t benefit from this lecture though, as I know because some of them accompanied me through the rest of the school. Indeed, probably the biggest beneficiary of the whole thing was me. Apart from the above mentioned extremely mild slippering I managed to avoid SCP in a very SCP prone era for the rest of my school career.</div>
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Aug 30, 2015#179
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The Milwaukee Journal – Jun 11, 1884
Angry Teacher
Found in the third column and more than half way down.
He spouts off about having to send a refractory pupil to the principal’s office to receive corporal punishment.
The scholars laugh and sneer right in our faces. Our wise school board has adopted a rule that a teacher shall not inflict corporal punishment, or in any way hurt or wound the feelings of a child. Is not this the crowning summit of philanthropical nonsense?
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Aug 30, 2015#180
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Sorry for the omission. Hint for researchers. If you find a series of words that are somewhat unique Google, for example, philanthropical nonsense and then bingo. That’s how I recovered this link.
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I always use this tool.
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Guest
Aug 30, 2015#181
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Hello Another Lurker
You comment
You also made an interesting comparison between the methods of male and female teachers when administering SCP. You said:
Men tend to paddle their favorites ( often including pretty girls) less and softer than those they dislike, whom they will paddle hard.
Hmm, that makes me wonder if I was a beneficiary of that effect in my one and only Junior School slippering. Though I remember it for other reasons I can’t recall the actual whacks at all and they must presumably have been very light. The male teacher wielding the slipper had never taught me, but he’d certainly have known of my reputation as the academic star of the ‘A’ stream.
However when the prettiest girl in my class was slippered by another male teacher she got the hardest and most distressing slippering I saw at that school, for a very trivial offence. We had a male ex-teacher posting here once who admitted to having deliberately hunted down and slippered pretty girls. Admittedly reading between the lines he wasn’t overly proud of this in retrospect but certainly not all male teachers went easy on pretty girls.
Your accounts of your elementary schooling shows the unfairness of public punishment. The teacher can’t relate individually to the student, and is concerned with public appearance. Now (although I have to say the ‘slipper’ isn’t something I’m familiar with), I would only use cp for ‘real ‘ punishment. That means you have to feel it , and it should be unpleasant. Otherwise the deterrent value of the punishment is diluted. So on that basis I would have hit you ‘properly’ or not at all. But in the leg slapping case, I think she did right, but you deserved privacy and not to be made a spectacle of when re-entering your own class.
she had us standing hands on heads and still in tears at the front of the class while she explained to our classmates that we’d been very naughty and that we’d been spanked, and that they must all behave when they moved up to the top class very soon, or they might be spanked too.
But on balance I’m against its use at the early years level. An odd smack for danger, ok, but not as formal spanking, let alone a production line!
As for pretty girls, sometimes they must come undone! But in general they feel they can twist male staff round their little finger. They know that doesn’t work with me. I take it the ‘slipper man’ you refer to is/was called JJ. As I scanned his pieces, and I haven’t looked in depth he seemed to be attracted to pretty girls but normally punished the quite pretty but not the beauty queens. Then latter doubtless have their staff suitors to stand up for them.I find some of the prom queen types burst into tears quicker than anyone else and long before the paddle is even raised, let alone descends, because they realize they won’t get away this time with me, and maybe tears will soften me up! They don’t !
The female teacher who administered my one significant dose of SCP was certainly even handed (and extremely hard and heavy handed too ). The girl from her own class first in the queue just in front of me got smacked just as hard as I did. So much so that I was pretty petrified at the prospect by the time it came to my turn! But no, the teacher didn’t display any understanding of the juvenile Another_Lurker’s special need to be let of lightly or preferably let off altogether. I got exactly what the girl had got.
Well we agree on this. If you use cp be prepared to use it hard (of course that’s why I don’t like its use in early years). It is no use reducing its deterrent effect. If you do use it lightly students won’ t respect you or see it as an effective deterrent. The beauty of the polycarbonate paddle is it achieves this at very little risk of even moderate bruising, whilst stinging like the very devil. Even the toughest seniors yelp and shed tears when this does the business. Even though the pain passes quickly. If you’d had the audacity to mention your ‘special need’ to me, I might have responded by doubling the dose for good measure.
Very little repeat business guaranteed! That’s not the case with detention, ISS or OSS!
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Sep 26, 2015#182
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Emporia, Kansas girls are getting out of control.
1917. spanking. Town Spanker article from a surprising source.
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1909
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1903. Gadding Girls
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Oct 28, 2015#183
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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1913 was a year of controversy over SCP in New York City with little consensus among the educators. They didn’t seem to have troublesome girls. N.B. that instrument of correction must have been popular at that time. If the boy drew more flattering picture of his teacher, he may not have been punished so vigorously.
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Another_Lurker
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Nov 04, 2015#184
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Nov 29, 2015#185
At the turn of the century there was quite a controversy in many parts of the world concerning the flogging of girls. This is well documented in New Zealand through the excellent resource of papers past.
Barbaric Methods WCTU of Ta Oranga.
November 29 1907
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December 5, 2007
An Interjection and reply
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Defense March 25, 1908
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Protests Against Exoneration (Previous Posted)
April 18, 1908
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Off Topic Prior Amusing Incident. Bear with me for citing collateral products of my research.
November 7, 1908
Excited Woman
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Te Oranga Home Now Girl’s Training Centre, Burwoood Christchurch
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Click to expand…
Follow Up. New Zealand Reform School for girls 1908.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Nov 29, 2015#186
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Nov 30, 2015#187
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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There are more ways to skin a cat. Does this work? Te Oranga Home 1908. I always try to accommodate you A_L for all your favors.
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Another_Lurker
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256
Nov 30, 2015#188
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Nov 30, 2015#189
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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A_L It was the thought that counted.
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Another_Lurker
10K
256
Nov 30, 2015#190
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Dec 11, 2015#191
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Spanking unruly pupils Chicago Tribune. 1908.
N.B. Barrel Staves.
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Dec 21, 2015#192
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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One of the most covered stories of cruelty to girl inmates occurred during the turn of the century in the New Jersey Industrial School for Girls with Matron Myrtle B Eyler
It’s a classic case of turn of the century yellow journalism.
There’s More to New Jersey than the Sopranos By Marc Mappe 2009.
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The Sun, New York.
July 30, 1899.
Big Girls Held Down by Male Farmhands to Be Spanked with the Whack of the Pine Shingle and the Whistle of the Birch Switch.
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The World New York.
August 3, 1899.
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August 4
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The World, April 8, 1899. The bump illustration is a classic.
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The evening times. Washington December 29, 1899
Merry Christmas Myrtle B Eyler
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New York Times, April 6, 1904.
Those girls were a handful. The professional spanker would report to duty in 1910.
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Dec 21, 2015#193
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Johnny Needn’t Fear The Birch.
New York Evening World December 29, 1904
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Dec 30, 2015#194
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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5 minutes of barrel justice reduces juvenile crime among boys by 60% in Powhattan Ohio near the West Virginia with coal mining.
Public Lashing Keeps Youth in Hand, Says Town’s One-Man Judge, Jury in Powhatan, Ohio. The whipping or “barrel justice” was credited today by a county judge with reducing juvenile delinquency nearly 60 per cent in this coal mining village. For five years Powhatan’s 2,500 residents have heard almost daily the swish of the whip as it descended on some youthful culprit’s posterior bent over a barrel in the public square.
Since the first public whipping was administered by hefty Marshal Edward Carpenter, he estimated that 200 youths ranging in age from 8 to 15 years had felt the sting of his lash or paddle. “It’s the only way we can keep the upper hand on these young offenders,” Carpenter asserted. They know very well that if they are caught they will be whipped over the barrel in public for their misdeeds.”
Carpenter declared that he believed “by getting at the root of crime juvenile delinquency,” he had made this Ohio river town one of the most law abiding In the state. “I know this,” said County Probate Judge Harry L. Albright, “juvenile delinquency in Powhatan has fallen off nearly 60 per cent from what It was before Carpenter’s barrel justice went Into effect. They ran dispense justice In five minutes over a barrel in rather effective way.”
The Milwaukee Journal – Jul 30, 1937
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The Shamrock Texan (Shamrock, Tex.) – August 3, 1937
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The Evening Independent – Aug 3, 1937
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1928 Bombing plot against Marshal Carpenter. Powder in the keg.
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Another example of over the barrel justice. Penkops undergoing punishment on Darrell’s Island
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Jan 01, 2016#195
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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In the 19th century it was the corporal punishment on the part of bodies other than the hands that raised the ire of the readers.
The Newberry Herald and News. South Carolina. March 23, 1892
The young woman was obliged to remove her stays (as corsets were then called) in order that the may be properly pained.
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Jan 24, 2016#196
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Bakersfield Schools, 1863-1910, Society and Politics by Gilbert P. Gia.
School Discipline. Page 25.
In 1889 Mr. Corinn was hired as schoolmaster at Old Town School in Tehachapi. It became apparent that he drank, cursed, and beat pupils. It was the drinking that done him in.
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Feb 05, 2016#197
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Edward Thring, Headmaster of Uppingham School : Life, Diary and Letters. 1900 by Parkin, George Robert, Sir, 1846-1922
Floggings at twelve o’clock each day.
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Source:
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Feb 17, 2016#198
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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In our nation’s capitol the paddle came back in fashion in 1963. It was banned in 1977. Perhaps the uncontrollable black students there so many sons and daughters of well paid white politicians can be found in predominately white private schools?
If compulsory attendance precipitated the change then there must have been no need for middle and elementary schools for the paddle. KK has mentioned the connection between the raising of the school age impact on its use. Modification of instruments of correction (e.g. tawse) were soon to follow.
The Bulletin – May 15, 1963
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Feb 22, 2016#199
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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How girls take their whippings? With good grace they dry their eyes and smooth their curls and don’t let any one know, not even their parents that they have had a taste of the rod.
The Princeton union. (Princeton, Minn.) 1876-1976, October 27, 1898
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Feb 24, 2016#200
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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What a contrast between ages and philosophy in education. It’s good to see the racial parity considering the history of the school. It’s amusing to see how the seven-year-olds enjoy punishment.
Historic school tours.
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Historic school tours.
Port Tobacco, Maryland.
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2013holyfamilypenguin
1,385
Feb 25, 2016#201
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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St Paul MN Daily Globe. February 27, 1887. Corporal Punishment etiquette.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
69
Apr 15, 2016#202
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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19th Century Paula Flowe.
Sacramento Daily Union12 October 1857.
OPPOSED TO THE WHIPPING SYSTEM.
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May 18, 2016#203
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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After twenty two years of no SCP in Savannah Georgia, it’s reintroduced.
Mower County Transcript. (Lansing, MN). November 27, 1907
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Recorder (Judge) Joh E Schwarz had his own take fifteen years later.
Very un-American. A right to whip unruly boys, but girls, naturally, are exempt.
Evening star. Washington, D.C. June 14, 1922.
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Schwarz sounds like a character. They don’t make judges like that anymore!
Brewers Review. July 1916
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Short Skirts. Fining the boy and the girl for her short skirt.
San Francisco Call. August 12,1913.
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It didn’t escape a commentary. Fiber Fabric. July 5, 1913.
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Swearing at Baseball Games.
The Nevada Daily Mail. Jun 10, 1909
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Jun 06, 2016#204
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Amazingly percent of rules that are now so commonplace for school corporal punishment.
1903 REPORT OF THE GOVERNOR OF PORTO RICO TO THE SECRETARY OF WAR.
Immoral conduct and insubordination. A few years down the road it was changed to grave misdemeanor.
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Jun 10, 2016#205
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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January 29, 1926. The Daily Star Queens Borough.
Is it an instrument of correction that she hold in her hand? She looks a bit to “flapperish” to be teaching in a classroom.
A quotation from Dr Peter A Demarest, a corporal punishment proponent from eighty years ago:
“During forty years of that time, I have never expelled a boy from school. The practice of expelling or suspending students by asking the parents to withdraw them from school has a good effect only on the pupils who remain in school; it doesn’t do anything for those who are sent out.
I am in favor of corporal punishment, but it should be done by the principal or some specially designated official of the school. It should not be done by the teacher in whose class the offense was committed, for the teacher is apt to be prejudiced. It should not be dealt in anger and it must be administered so that the one who receives it feels that it is deserved.”
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Jun 10, 2016#206
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Correction. 1926 was ninety years ago and eight years ago as posted above.
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Jun 25, 2016#207
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Spank the Sissies says Dr O’Shea.
University Missourian February 25, 1909
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Jul 01, 2016#208
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The state of New Jersey banned school corporal punishment in 1867 with the next state being Massachusetts in 1971. I have been pretty thorough and the only reference I have found was a one liner.
Evening Star Washington June 6, 1867
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The Maryville Times Tennessee raised a question. October 12, 1892. How well enforced the ban was another matter?
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April 6, 1894. The Anaconda Standard (Montana). An unsuccessful attempt was made to reverse the ban by a 41 to 11 vote.
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Jul 03, 2016#209
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The Evening World. New York. July 10, 1894
Is the Rod Necessary?
More ink has been spilt over this controversy than any that readily comes to mind when it comes to education than corporal punishment.
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Aug 17, 2016#210
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The writer (WPA) acknowledges in this editorial the need for corporal punishment. I have a feeling I proffered this before but in a different format around the time I posted about the celebrated Josephine Foster flogging.
Cambridge Chronicle. May 25, 1867.
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This I believe is newly posted. Much later down the road. March 8, 1919. Cambridge Sentinel. The concern of parental consent.
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March 15, 1919. For corporal punishment without parental consent.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Aug 17, 2016#211
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Corporal punishment and the growing insubordination of scholars.
Mechanics and Manufacturers in the Early Industrial Revolution: Lynn MA
‘Lynn, Lynn, city of sin. You never come out the way you went in. Ask for water, they give you a gin the girls say no, but always give in’
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Page 199 ff.
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Aug 18, 2016#212
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Oops pages 119 ff not 199.
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Aug 18, 2016#213
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Mechanic and Manufacturers in the Early Industrial Revolution: Hit the Icon: Look for Google Preview under title image and after you hit that icon put the word corporal and voila.
The manner in which I presented it yesterday worked and today it didn’t so I had to find another way to skin the cat. I don’t like to be thwarted.
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Aug 23, 2016#214
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The Duluth Evening Herald Monday, March 15, 1897.
Anti CP Alternative.
Council of Students Which Disciplines the Scholars When Necessary. Not One Case Reported the Principal Since Its Adoption.
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Sep 18, 2016#215
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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School Management: Including a Full Discussion of School Economy, School Ethics, School Government, and the Professional Relations of the Teacher.
Albert Newton Raub had some insights in the days when the rod and the ferule were freely applied. 1882.
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Page 213 under the chapter heading School Control you will find grounds for a robust discussion for the estimable Forum.
Background information about Dr Raub.
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Oct 10, 2016#216
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Whipping Post In Every School Yard.
The Washington times. March 18, 1905
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Seattle Star. March 21, 1905
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The Butler Weekly Times. March 30, 1905
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Maybe in Chicago but not in Cairo.
The Cairo Bulletin. January 5, 1905.
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Oct 19, 2016#217
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The mid 19th century whipping of Miss Josephine Foster has been well covered in the estimable Forum. However this fleshes it out.
Rochester NY Union and Advertiser June 29, 1866.
We do not hear of any movement being made at the South to interfere with the rules of the Cambridge public schools, which tolerate holding, gagging, and flogging of young white girls to the music of the piano forte. Public meetings should be held in Charleston, Richmond and Mobile, to consider this matter, and see what can be done for the oppressed and down trodden white girls of Massachusetts. Arc there none so humane as to lead in this movement.
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The Boston Herald via Lancaster Ledger South Carolina. July 18, 1866. Top Right Hand Column.
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Nov 12, 2016#218
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Follow up of prior posted Bishop Sheen. Buffalo Courier-Express. April 1, 1967.
Spanking Has Value When Used Wisely. The practices of former or ancient times have interest for all of us. One such custom BOW out of date and forgotten, is spanking. It is well to remem-ber that every newborn child gets a spanking, and it starts him breathing and living. For the benefit of those who do not know of the phenonmenon called “spanking” it might be called a form of punishment that is given at one end to impress the other. God. gave to parents a hand and He gave to the child an extremely well-padded part of the anatomy.
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Newly posted Buffalo Courier-Express. November 19, 1960.
Bishop Sheen Good Spanking At Proper Time Is Very Helpful. If the word “spanking” may be used as a symbol of any kind of discipline, it is safe to say that there is a direct ratio between juvenile delinquency and want of discipline in the home. Putting it more lightly: two of the most contributing causes to juvenile delinquency have been first, safety razors which have dispensed with the razor strap, and secondly garages which have done away with the woodshed. If one may take the verbiage of a ship, spanking is known as “stern” punishment. It is a form of depressing one end to impress the other end. It takes much less time than reasoning and penetrates more quickly.
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Re: School Corporal Punishment. Defending corporal punishment in schools, he said: “A pat on the back will help build character if it is given often enough, hard enough and low enough.”
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The Spanking Saint. June 15, 2016. Catholic News Agency
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Nov 25, 2016#219
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Dr. Edwin Twitmyer opines.
Philadelphia Inquirer. 1940.
But now Dr. Edwin Twitmyer, head of the psychology clinic at the University of Pennsylvania, with an experience that has taken In 20,000 boys and girls, makes the positive
statement that the “disagreeable protoplasmic stimulation” known to our ancestors as spanking is very important in the bringing up of a good, disciplined, human being.
“You may be modern mothers who do not believe in spanking your youngsters,” he told a group of parents who
had come to visit him in his clinic. “Just remember that I have raised a large family, and have home experience as well as theory and clinic
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Albany New York Times. 1942.
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Guest
Nov 25, 2016#220
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Interesting psychological argument for young children being spanked, but the case for older children/teens to be subjected to ‘the rod’ is not supported here. When the age of reasoning is reached I believe the case for it was that no reasoning person would want to be punished in such a way, so behaving in a socially acceptable way would mean avoiding the pain. Up to a point that was true in days gone by, but normal kids test boundaries and the shock of the smacked bottom was the preferred formal method of pedagogues in explaining that the boundary had been reached.
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Oliver_Sydney
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Nov 26, 2016#221
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It is my day for being puzzled. Twitmyer’s statement “You can’t reason with any child under the age of eight years” doesn’t make sense to me. Perhaps someone can explain.
The article below, which puts the boundary nearer to three, makes sense to me:
http://www.parents.com/toddlers-prescho … -toddlers/
What I would say is that children under eight often don’t understand why they are being hit. In schools this was largely because in most cases the real reason was the mood of the adult rather than the behaviour of the child. To be fair, this was often understandable. To be in charge of a class of 30-40 six year olds would be a nightmare to me.
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Nov 26, 2016#222
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Interesting. Now I understand better what they are getting at thanks to these articles.
http://www.scholastic.com/parents/resou … age-reason
It’s been called the “Age of Reason,” since these children have a newly internalized sense of right and wrong. They are no longer focused simply on not getting caught or displeasing adults. They have made up their minds about what is right or wrong, identifying with their primary caregivers’ expressed values and applying them quite rigidly.
Age of reason
He now has a notion of good and bad and of justice and injustice. Then, he can understand these concepts through facts rather than through the impact they have on his person.
I suspect that many adults (eg Donald Trump) never quite get to this stage and thrive because of, rather than despite, this.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
69
Dec 07, 2016#223
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From Scotland to the USA. Representative Wilson would abolish the rod. Evening star. (Washington, D.C.) July 30, 1912.
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Washington Herald July 30, 1912
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Washington Times. July 30, 1912.
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Rep Wilson biography.
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Dec 09, 2016#224
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Albany Times Union October 1944.
We are out of sympathy with the sob-sister approach affected by many amateur social workers who seem to ignore the merits of elementary discipline and to find in every erring child a candidate for psychiatry instead of a hairbrush.<b></b>
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Dec 30, 2016#225
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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To spank or not to spank? That is the question.
In his protestation, Chief Devery won’t spank grown females.
Chicago Tribune. March 29, 1903.
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Magistrate Luke Connorton will enthusiastically spank them.
The Evening World New York. May 16, 1903.
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Rev John L Belford in Brooklyn verbally spanks.
Harrisburg telegraph. July 15, 1914
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Captain Jorge Solis can’t spank them south of the border.
Cortland Standard New York. October 17, 1935.
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Jan 27, 2017#226
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Marshaltown Times Republican, Marshalltown, Iowa.
Return to Sane Methods (First Column)
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Mar 02, 2017#227
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Spanking with an old fashioned wooden paddle were still in vogue Memphis. Principal S L Ragsdale of F M Guthrie School. Johnnie Carkuff was spanked for whistling much to the consternation of his father. Stories abound that attests to aggrieved parents attacking their teachers that administered corporal punishment.
The News Scimitar October 28, 1920
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Outraged father tries to cut the jugular vein.
The News Scimitar October 29, 1920
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October 30, 1920
The school patrons stood by the principal.
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November 6, 1920
Knife wielding father indicted for assault to murder the teacher.
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Mar 08, 2017#228
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The New York Press June 14, 1905
One would be hard pressed to find a stonger proponent of school corporal punishment than Judge Olmstead.
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Mar 08, 2017#229
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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It’s interesting how rarely spanking was employed in schools where it was permitted. Note the boy’s position and the teacher’s instrument of correction in this posed picture.
Binghamton Press April 14, 1936
Swinging the ruler, century-old game between teacher and unruly pupil, Is banned In Triple Cities schools and the whacks of contact are heard but rarely In other, sections of the Binghamton area. Non-spanking schools, listed above, have a strict rule against It. And those In the “spanking” classification use the ruler seldom but have no regulations prohibiting corporal punishment.
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Another_Lurker
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Mar 08, 2017#230
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Mar 14, 2017#231
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Bad Girls Riot Hudson New York 1899.
The Abbeville Press and Banner South Carolina10/25/99
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Editorial.
New York Reform School Girls Are Not Vassar Girls
Times Republican October 10, 1899.
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Apr 02, 2017#232
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Bradford Reporter Towanda June 16, 1855.
Penultimate column. School Corporal punishment and at what resort?
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Apr 18, 2017#233
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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A strange school spanking! May 20, 1927 Cortland Standard. The suit is based on the anti-mob law from Kansas.
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Elmira Star Gazette May 19, 1927.
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Lawrence MA Journal World – May 11, 1927.
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Apr 20, 2017#234
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Richmond Dispatch. Virginia. October 19, 1902
School Life 1802 USA. Bleak is an understatement.
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Apr 28, 2017#235
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Gazette of the United States. New York. I wonder if not for a revolution such civilized policy would be in place. January 20, 1790.
There was a hesitancy to apply, and a prohibition of when, where and who should or should not apply corporal punishment in school. It was never to applied on females. I would never apply to teach knowing I was promoting systemic sexism.
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Bottom of second column
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May 04, 2017#236
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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There was quite a disparity of practices and theories in 1936 in New York state when it came to school corporal punishment.
THE BINGHAMTON PRESS APRIL 14, 1936.
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Jun 10, 2017#237
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Cure for ill-bred wretches.
New Scientist, Oct 31, 1974
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Another_Lurker
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Jun 11, 2017#238
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Jul 03, 2017#239
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Count this among one of my few on topic postings.
Principals Divided as to the Use of the Rod 64 Women Favor Corporal Punishment and 109 Opposed. 162 Men Favor and 77 Opposed.
Brooklyn Daily Eagle February 14, 1908.
Two gentlemen are mentioned on the second column. Principal Vlymes spoke of the suitable instrument for the hands or on the cushion provided by nature. There was no reticence to use buttocks to describe Principal Felter’s (more about him later) girls’ nether cheeks.
As a fancier of hands I say, “spare the ruler but not the rod.”
Some of this gender differences in the polling may have been related to the age of the students. Why? The men were entrusted with the older youngsters that perhaps were more likely to be numbered among the extreme cases.
I’m afraid it’s case of the “sweet” schoolmarms (lower grades) vs the “stern” headmasters (upper grades). As the twig is bent so are the twigs.
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He had an eye on English girls’ healthy bodies.
“He gave a luminous picture of the magnificent fields that surrounded the college, and spoke of tho frolic and gambol of the girls for those two hours. He noted the healthy bodies that this exercise developed and the ruddy complexion.”
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Felter certainly got around. He must fancied cigars and as well as his nine female colleagues’ silk stockings. The thieves helped themselves to money, cigars and silk stockings.
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March 20, 1933 RIP. Here is a snippet from his obituary.
“He was ever a champion of the younger generation of girls, and toward the close of his long stewardship at Girls High School he often took hearty, good-humored delight in reminding distracted mothers that petting parties took place on old-fashioned buggy rides exactly as they now take place in automobiles.”
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Aug 05, 2017#240
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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What happens when a state that permits corporal punishment that tallies up small numbers such as Indiana and Kentucky? Are these handful of districts within their state be “spare the rod” areas?
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Parental choice. July 27, 2017
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Even the “spare the rod” private schools are opting out in places where the public schools inflict corporal punishment rarely.
The Business Committee of the Thirty-first General Synod has recommended this proposed resolution be sent to a Committee of the General Synod regarding corporal punishment. The UCC is mainstream Protestant. The Roman Catholics stopped corporal punishment, with a few exceptions, years ago. The evangelical and pentecostals are more likely to support corporal punishment in the school.
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In Kentucky it is so rare that it usually flies under the radar screen. It finds its way into small town local papers though. There are so few spokesman left to defend the practice.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Aug 10, 2017#241
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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High School Principals on Corporal Punishment
High School Quarterly. July 1915.
Here are some miniscule corporal punishment numbers. 100 years ago in Dixie land.
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Aug 27, 2017#242
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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The flogging of the Josephine Foster girl set off a pro and con school corporal punishment debate that has gone unsurpassed in the ensuing years of our history. This whole affair would be worth writing an article.
Those fresh wounds following the Civil War are slow indeed to heal. This is especially germane to the racial discord that occurred in the United States last week.
The Charleston Daily News South Carolina. February 6, 1867
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For this who haven’t read the debate that followed that incident here is a link that I priorly posted.
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Aug 27, 2017#243
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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That conflict between the North and the South as it related to Josephine Foster did not go unnoticed.
Chicago Tribune July 07, 1866
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Sep 06, 2017#244
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Here is an interesting spin on early reflections on corporal punishment in the USA. The author contended the way to reduce school corporal punishment was to take the club from incompetent teachers and leaving it in the principal’s hand.
Morning Journal and Courier. New Haven November 09, 1880
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Oct 03, 2017#245
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Professor Frank M McMurray, turn of the century Columbia University Teachers’ College scholar, had a reputation of putting restrictions on corporal punishment as a means of reintroducing it. He made a convincing case to 60 New York City principals though nonetheless was unsuccessful. I believe this with some prior posted links was an effort to reintroduce corporal punishment. No female miscreants meriting the rod are mentioned. Sometimes when you hear unorthodox ideas like Professor McMurry we don’t understand what esteem they are held among their colleagues as in his obituary.
Would teachers have to pass a physical to spank a miscreant?
The Citizen. February 18, 1913
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The Evening Telegram. McMurry laments the demise of the rod. January 29, 1913.
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A medical exam before the spanking.
Evening Telegram February 1, 1913
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RIP The Herald Statesman. August 3, 1936.
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Oct 14, 2017#246
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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British and USA perspectives on school corporal punishment
The Evening Post March 25, 1898
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Dec 10, 2017#247
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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At times people equate corporal punishment into beating. These 9 points are worth pondering before one starts jumping to conclusions.
1. Most districts have the school board (people that for the most part have never been teachers, but have been elected by society, including the parents) – not the principal or the teachers – decide the disciplinary methods a system uses. So stop blaming the principal.
2. Usually the corporal punishment is one of the last to be used, after writing assignments, in-school suspension, confiscation, calling the parents, etc. So stop acting like this is some kind of first response to something minimal. IOW, this might have been the child’s 3rd, 4th, or 8th referral for having her cell phone out.
3. Which leads me to this item: regardless of what some of you parents think about your child having a cell phone in school (or one that’s on), if the school/system rules do not permit it, then the child is in the wrong. PERIOD. Follow the rules or get punished – maybe some of you parents might need a refresher lesson in logic.
4. Most districts make sure that the parents/guardians know up front that corporal punishment is a a disciplinary method to be used by the schools. Parents usually have to sign a form either giving the go-ahead for it to be used or another form waiving that for their child. So, more than likely, this parent knew it could be used on her daughter before-hand.
5. Most districts will not utilize paddling UNLESS and UNTIL the parent is present, so as to be a witness. So, again the parent knew this was coming.
6. Any administrator, with at least 3 brain cells put together, would know NOT to overdo the swings, whether or not in the presence of a parent. That’s just asking for jail time. So I highly doubt that the swings were as detrimental as the parent described.
7. Many parents nowadays are called “helicopter parents.” One of the characteristics of these parent types is denial that their precious lil snowflake could ever do anything wrong, or even if they did, it most certainly shouldn’t be punished, or if it is, it most certainly shouldn’t fit the crime. Now I’m not saying anything concerning this particular situation, but being a high school teacher for nearly two decades, I’ve seen it all: The parent waiting for the opportunity to blame the school for anything that could bring them attention, revenge, and money.
8. Taking their child to the ER could have been just another method of making the situation sound much worse. And if my parents took me to the ER every time I had a bump or bruise (from crashing my bike, falling down a hill, playing football in the yard, etc.) they’d have been arrested for child abuse. So to say that having the ER find “evidence of abuse” could be very misleading.
9. And even if the principal went overboard (it does happen from time to time), how in the H#ll do some of you justify lumping every bloody school system in America in with this particular one? So one person does something bad, all educators in America are the same?!? We truly have failed to teach many of you. 
As a student in the 70’s and 80’s, I can recall getting paddlings many times. I was a kid that couldn’t still still or couldn’t shut up. those times when I received my 3 swings were just enough to remind me that there are consequences for not following the rules, or for doing what I was told. I never suffered from it. I’m not a child abuser, I’ve never used it on my students. One of my children responds better to time-outs and grounding while the other occasionally needs a firm (but not harsh) swat on the back-side to remind him he’s doing bad, and I hate doing that, but it works. So for those of you saying this kind of punishment leads kids to believe “violence” is good are delusional.
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Another_Lurker
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Dec 11, 2017#248
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Dec 11, 2017#249
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Renee was quick to defend inflictors of corporal punishment in Memphis. She enjoyed sparring with Paula Flowe with an “unteacherlike” attitude to the children of Memphis. Among teachers who do paddle she would be hard pressed to find a colleague that would share her knee jerk reaction where hand strappings and paddling at assemblies were held on a weekly basis.
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Dec 30, 2017#250
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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This pre-dated the frequent paddling states legal protection under shield laws. Some say the fading out of paddling was caused by law suits more than for pedadgogical purposes.
The journalists has a sense of humor.
Wood County Reporter, Grand Rapids Wisconsin. December 20, 1883
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Jan 05, 2018#251
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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dane, if you have time how would you respond tessie1705? I’m sure some paddlers and pro-paddlers would say you have no skin in the game. I’m just curious as I’m sure our other readers how you feel toward this teacher. dane, I’m not trying to be a troublemaker but I am trying to elicit more posts. So sue me
Oct 26, 2013 at 10:23 PM
Honestly, I’m a teacher, and we have very little consequences we can give the kids. I teach inner city kids in a non inner city school. They bus them 45 minutes to come to our school. Over the years they keep adding more and more buses, and we are now 95% free/reduced lunch with little parental support. Parent conferences??? Ha! 9 out of 90 parents showed up. Hold detention? Nope, they don’t have rides. Our district basically told us we can’t suspend kids either.
The kids right now are running these schools because they’re not scared of anything, and have no consequences. All 90 of my 7th grade students read below grade level. Some at a kindergarten and 1st grade level. These are our future. I say bring back corporal punishment….. Maybe I wouldn’t have been told to shut up by a student yesterday…..
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dane
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Jan 05, 2018#252
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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i would say that their frustration at the situation in the school is justified but their proposed solution isn’t the answer. their school isn’t giving them any effective tools to combat the discipline problems they are facing so they want to go back to an old and generally ineffective tool. they want a quick easy fix for their complicated problems, but without supportive parents or a school administration that is actively involved in addressing issues a return to violence against the students won’t solve their problems. there is no evidence that school that return to cp improve test scores or lower rates of absenteeism or or violence they just need to add things in their handbook about the penalties for retaliation against teachers which most non cp school don’t feel needs mentioning.
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Jan 05, 2018#253
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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one difference i notice in scp in the present american redneckistan vs. england of the days long gone is that british caning was generally considered a severe punishment often right below expulsion where in redneckistan the use of scp is generally for very petty offenses, often the very bottom of the discipline pyramid right above a sharp word. usaually these school have an opt out or even give the kids themselves a choice but that choice always bumps up the punishment to a higher level putting great pressure on both parents and children to consent to beatings. the alternative punishment is often 3 days in iss which is normally the punishment for fairly serious misbehavior, not an errant cell phone ring or a 3rd tardy. it also seems that schools that frequently paddle have average or higher rates of all other forms of discipline than none scp school. they don’t really trade out school cp for other forms of discipline they just add it into a much more punitive mix than other school with little or no observable benefit.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Jan 05, 2018#254
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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dane, you are a valuable addition to the estimable Forum. I appreciate your swift and considered response. I would hate too see the paddle used to relieve the frustration of professional educators. IMHO someone as unhappy at teaching as the poster should consider teaching under less challenging circumstances or perhaps even a career change.
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bripuk
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Jan 05, 2018#255
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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When I started teaching in the early 70s cp was used sparingly exclusively for boys. I taught in 4 schools 3 of which used the cane very infrequently. I was also aware of several local secondary schools some of which used the cane occasionally. The ethos and general behaviour of the pupils of the schools did not seem to depend on whether cp was used or otherwise but on other factors such as parental support, the character of the head and the quality of the teaching. I was responsible for a few boys being caned for what I considered to be serious transgressions but I never experienced any malice by the boys concerned.
The situation was quite different when I was at school in the early 60s when the cane and slipper were used frequently but most boys preferred that form of punishment to long detentions or pointless impositions. I never experiences or witnessed any cp that was excessive or undeserved.
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dane
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Jan 06, 2018#256
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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i agree with american way that the teacher who wanted cp brought back seemed burned out and probably should consider a career change. the last line seemed very telling, they described the school as failing to educate the students and the students running wild, but then their concrete example was of being told by a student to shut up…. i thought so you weren’t assaulted or threatened with violence in this blackboard jungle you describe… that’s good, i’m glad you are safe. you weren’t sworn at or cursed out, you were not confronted with grossly inappropriate vulgarities… also good. what you actually described was pretty much garden variety insubordination, something that every teacher at least occasionally faces, and something that might earn a child “pops” in a cp heavy school, but hardly something indicative of a total collapse of teacher control. something that any experienced teacher should be able to manage… perhaps with a discipline referral, or perhaps just by saying in you stern teacher voice… “i am the teacher, and you are the student. i will speak when i choose to and you will speak when given permission. now calm down, sit at your desk and please watch you tone.”
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Jan 28, 2018#257
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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One of the earliest recorded detailed debates of corporal punishment found in a USA newspaper from my research at least.
Bradford Reporter. (Towanda, Pa.) June 16, 1855
Liar. Liar. Pants on fire.
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Feb 06, 2018#258
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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New York Evening Post February 29, 1908
“Any principal neglecting to keep such record, or to forward the transcript thereof as above required, or who may be guilty of inflicting any cruel or excessive punishment, and any teacher, other than the principal or vice-principal aforesaid, who shall inflict any corporal punishment, shall, on the recommendation of the city superintendent, on proof of such delinquency or improper punishment, be removed by the board.”
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Mar 16, 2018#259
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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St Patricks Day Fireworks.
The Indianapolis journal March 30, 1890
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Evening Star (Washington, D.C.) March 28, 1890
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Mar 24, 2018#260
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Miss Dora E Gibson of Beaver Dam, Kentucky, knew how to handle those who threw quids of tobacco at her head. Prior posted.
Mountain advocate. (Barbourville, Ky.) July 22, 1904
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Bottom left column.
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Newly posted. Faculty Member Miss Dora E Gibson..
The Hartford republican. (Hartford, KY.) July 24, 1903
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Dora strongly defended the use of corporal punishment.
The Hartford republican. July 22, 1904
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Don’t whisper in her class. She knew the cause and she knew the cure.
The Hartford herald. (Hartford, Ky.) July 31, 1907
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Mar 24, 2018#261
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Addendum on Miss Beaver Dam.
Southern School Journal September 1901
Questions Answers Miss Dora E Gibson
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She lived to 86 and was a school teacher for 53 years. First in Kentucky, then in Louisiana, and finally in Texas where she rests in peace.
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American Way
Apr 02, 2018#262
2015holyfamilypenguin wrote:
1904 Interesting Corporal Punishment Principals Debate.
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Addendum on Miss Beaver Dam.
Southern School Journal September 1901
Questions Answers Miss Dora E Gibson
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She lived to 86 and was a school teacher for 53 years. First in Kentucky, then in Louisiana, and finally in Texas where she rests in peace.
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Click to expand…
The New York Press, December 17, 1893.
A hundred years passed before another state followed New Jersey’s lead of banning school corporal punishment. A_L I’m sure you don’t care for those long links but it will be that until I get this straight.
http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
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2015holyfamily
360
7
Apr 14, 2018#263
Daily Illini > 12 October 1957Some Children Like Canoes, Are Meant To Be Paddled idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bin/illinois?a=d&d=DIL19571012.2.12&srpos=8&dliv=none&e=——-en-20–1–txt-txIN-school+paddling——-
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Apr 14, 2018#264
The Daily Illinois October 12, 1957.
Some Children Like Canoes, Are Meant To Be Paddled.
idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bin/illinois?a=d&d=DIL19571012.2.12&srpos=8&dliv=none&e=——-en-20–1–txt-txIN-school+paddling-
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Apr 18, 2018#265
The American School Board Journal William George Bruce, William Conrad Bruce
W. G. Bruce., 1915
Spanking As A Fine Art.
https://books.google.com/books/content? … k4g&edge=0
Seventeen year olds are not spared the benefit of spankings one hundred years ago.
https://books.google.com/books/content? … iGA&edge=0
The article follows.
https://books.google.com/books?id=XS4xA … ic&f=false
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Apr 23, 2018#266
Rev Margaret Mary, Mother Superior of Parktown Convent.
Beat your daughters!
Paddle Girls, Nun Advises DURBAN, April 4 — “Beat your daughters if necessary,” is the advice Rev. Mother Margaret Mary, Superior of the fashionable Parktown Convent, has given to parents in Johannesburg,South Africa.”Spare the rod and spoil the child is as true today as ever it was,” she said. She has threatened to expel any girl who wears make-up, tells objectionable stories, smokes or loiters with boys.
Buffalo Courier Express April 12, 1959
http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
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dane
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Apr 23, 2018#267
what exactly is a fashionable convent
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2015holyfamily
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Apr 23, 2018#268
Dane, Fashionable part of town. American Way
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WWT
Apr 23, 2018#269
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parktown_Convent
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Apr 28, 2018#270
Mary Pryor, the meanest teacher? You be the judge. Syracuse, New York April 27, 2018
http://www.syracuse.com/vintage/2018/04 … _1928.html
Utica Observer – Dispatch March 27, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch April 22, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch April 23, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch April 24, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch April 29, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch April 30, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch May 1, 1928
Roman Sentinel June 6, 1928 http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
Utica Observer – Dispatch May 2, 1928
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Utica Observer- Dispatch May 3, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch May 9, 1928
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Utica Observer May 22, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch May 24, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch May 29, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch May 31, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch June 1, 1928
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Utica Observer June 2, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch June 6, 1928
Roman Sentinel June 6, 1928 http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
Utica Observer – Dispatch June 8, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch July 2, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch July 14, 1928
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Utica Observer – Dispatch September 18, 1928
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Daily Sentinel Rome NY Match 27, 1928
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Daily Sentinel Rome, NY April 19, 1928
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Daily Sentinel Rome, NY April 24, 1928
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Rome Day Sentinel April 25, 1928
Roman Sentinel June 6, 1928 http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
Rome Daily Sentinel April 26, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel April 28
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Rome Daily Sentinel April 30, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel May 2, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel May 3, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel May 17, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel May 22,1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel May 25, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel May 29, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel May 31, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel June 1, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel June 2, 1928
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Roman Sentinel June 6, 1928
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Rome Daily Sentinel July 18, 1928
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Roman Daily Sentinel September 5, 1928
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Roman Daily Sentinel September 20, 1928
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Jul 05, 2018#271
Brooklyn principal opines on school corporal punishment. March 1892.
https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers. … r——-0-
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Aug 13, 2018#272
Post war England and the Corporal Correction League. Perhaps the fatherly palm was missing in action up to the age of 14 one hundred years ago. The same applied after the next war especially for wayward wives. ????
http://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bi … ing——-
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Sep 04, 2018#273
Massachusetts was the second state to ban corporal punishment in 1971. The ruler, the paddle, the stick and the strap were the instruments of correction used and in that order of frequency. The first state that outlawed it was New Jersey in 1867. Unlike Massachusetts New Jersey revisited the policy soon thereafter but opponents failed to overturn the ban.
The arguments for or against corporal punishment has been going on for years. Many arguments were initiated after the well publicized spanking of Josephine Foster.
https://ia902701.us.archive.org/BookRea … 5&rotate=0
https://archive.org/stream/corporalpuni … g#page/n25
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Sep 04, 2018#274
For your perusal and perhaps for your amusement.
https://ia902701.us.archive.org/BookRea … g#page/n13
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Sep 19, 2018#275
With the Supreme Court taking a rightward swing it is less likely teachers will stop swinging of course as in paddling. The red states bottoms will be in different shades of pink.
Renee of TWP experiment. Think pink. ????
https://reason.com/volokh/2018/09/19/th … mi#comment
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Sep 25, 2018#276
1904 Chicago teachers favored limited corporal punishment for boys that make faces and girls who chew gum. There is a funny commentary. Chicago and New York City were not municipalities that were in favor of corporal punishment. Perhaps the multicultural nature of these cities were not conducive for achieving a consensus. Different schools of thoughts clashed without resolution. Principals favored corporal punishment but the politicians balked.
http://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bi … ank——-
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Sep 25, 2018#277
Not long after New Jersey banned school corporal punishment New York City (1871) and Chicago (1873).
http://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-bi … ent——-
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Nov 05, 2018#278
An interesting theory is that reporting requirements have led to fewer applications of corporal punishment. Could anyone imagine in 1869 that the hitting on the buttocks, as opposed to the hand, would still be going on. Slaves were whipped with a lash or paddled. Scholars were perhaps likely been hit on the hand with a ferrule. Males applying the rod to a female scholar would be abhorrent.
June 25, 1869.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … nge&page=1
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Feb 06, 2019#279
Passions have always run high when it comes to school corporal. I suppose there has been worldwide consensus against it with small pockets holding to their time honored traditions. Their familiar response to corporal punishment beggars the question of the efficacy of it to teach grammar. “It didn’t do me no harm.” As in arithmetic two negatives equals a positive.????
Dr George F Hall 1904.
http://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d&d … rls——-
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May 04, 2019#280
I think when people reminisce they reflect about the fairness or the lack of fairness of life in general. Something that comes as close to the skin as the paddle magnifies those moments. When spanking is the last resort it is for the bad youngsters not the good youngsters like the author or so he thought at the time. The difference between the bad and the good boys is also magnified.
Boys were not that worse than girls. The girls found the code of conduct easier to obey and were taken less to task when they disobeyed. There was also a “sugar and spice” and “Daddy’s little girl” factor among male members of the faculty and administrator that may have accounted why girls were way less likely to come home with a sore bottom.
There are deleterious consequences that men that were spanked a boys in schools can bear with equanimity that childhood unfairness.
https://rabbitroom.com/2013/02/rest-in- … -van-horn/
It is never too late too spank nor is one exempt due to gender.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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May 06, 2019#281
One of the earliest trials in the USA regarding school corporal punishment. The schoolmaster was not guilty for corporally punishing a boy that deliberately blew his horn to distract his class. I feel safe in assuming that because the incident took place in Boston (Charleston) Massachusetts.
First and second column. The same arguments can be made today two centuries later.
http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
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May 22, 2019#282
Search as you may you would be hard pressed to find an account regarding school corporal punishments as amusing.
Yankee ingenuity. April 1904.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 62%2C7003/
Penultimate column. Spanked In This School.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … seq-10.pdf
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Another_Lurker
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May 22, 2019#283
Hello American Way,
I am inclined to agree with your analysis of the above report from April 1904. Amusing indeed.
A schoolmaster allowing the rest of the class to vote on the form of corporal punishment to be undergone by an offending student. And the student then being marched from the schoolroom to the domestic part of the schoolhouse where the schoolmaster’s wife carried out the appointed punishment.
To assist readers in perusing the story while avoiding all that frustrating scrolling around a page to find it here is a link which displays the full account and nothing but the full account.
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dmp
191
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May 23, 2019#284
this apparently did not leave the students and the teachers wife in an amiable and familial relationship if they had a party and burned her in effigy on the day of her funeral… that’s some serious hate… i didn’t even do that when reagan died
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Another_Lurker
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May 23, 2019#285
Hello dane,
I am very glad to hear that you sometimes conduct yourself with dignity and decorum even when severely pressed! ????
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Jun 04, 2019#286
This 1897 male pedagogue protests his conviction of spanking a twelve year girl scholar.
He should have thrashed and not used his palm.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 33%2C4373/
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Jul 31, 2019#287
The days of yore demanded a lot on schoolmarms but there are many accounts where they stood up for themselves and were more than up for the tasks.
Scroll all the way down and look at very bottom of the left hand column for the few lines of introduction to a humorous account of how corporal punishment was administered in the 19th century under difficult circumstances.
Cruel to be kind.
1884.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-b … etpdf=true
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Aug 01, 2019#288
New Jersey was the only state where teachers were not allowed to inflict corporal punishment not only in 1867 but right until the 1970’s. What an ignominious ending to a schoolboy strike in Jersey City.
http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
Three spanking stories on one page with one page. The spanking of the schoolboys in a Chicago is not as reliable as the one above. There are many reasons to spank your wife that judges permitted but not from the story with the illustration.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/cgi-b … etpdf=true
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Aug 01, 2019#289
Magistrate Beaton is no stranger to the estimable Forum. Every husband that cared enough about his wife under the right circumstance that spanked their wife felt the long arm of the law. He was a century ahead of his time when it came to consensual spanking. ????
1911.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 51%2C6115/
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Aug 04, 2019#290
Without appearing immodest the following 1844 link, starting at the bottom of the third column, is the best discussion I have ever read and it would be your loss if you didn’t read it. Up until the recent expansion of the use of capital punishment, the use of corporal punishment was more likely where there was capital punishment. True then and until recently true as well. I love the contribution of Professor Dewey of the Collegiate Insitute toward the end of this very well written piece.
Comments welcomed.
http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 04, 2019#291
Hello American Way,
I am in full agreement with you. A very balanced article. Written in 1844 and 175 years later very much the same arguments for and against SCP are still put forward today, though of course the language often used today lacks the elegance and precision normal in 1844.
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KKxyz
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Aug 06, 2019#292
Same old, same old. Lots of pontificating and speakers at cross purposes. No progress since. We are all products of our upbringing and culture.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Aug 19, 2019#293
The debate has raged with great passion whether corporal punishment should or not be applied in schools. It may seem to be, “the same old same old,” but some others may find the prose of the day applied to the pros and cons from centuries ago worth reading or at least amusing.
The speakers here were perhaps once scholars that were biblically “birched un-breeched” in the 18th century. The annals of the earliest school, Boston Latin School, speaks of the birch as the instrument of correction for such is the curse of the English vice. ????
New York Herald 1845. The second story of the third column.
http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/hi … Page=false
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Aug 23, 2019#294
The good old days were not always the good old days in Bruceville.
1890.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 06%2C3340/
Bruceville background.
The closest town to the farm where I grew up is called Mikado. Mikado was first called Bruceville, because the founder of the town was Daniel Bruce, and the town was first named for him. I have read that the town was also called West Greenbush for a while. The name was changed to Mikado some time around the turn of the century, c. 1900. The Japanese name for the town was borrowed from the Gilbert and Sullivan light opera, The Mikado.
Well, you can be sure that the residents of Bruceville had no first-hand experience with opera, either “light” or “heavy,” or any other kind! They just liked the name, Mikado. Unfortunately, they did not know how to pronounce it; therefore, the name of the place is “mi-kay-doe” [long i, long a, long o].
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Another_Lurker
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Aug 24, 2019#295
Hello American Way,
It seems to me a great pity that any of our readers unfamiliar with coordinate geometry should be deprived of the full benefit of Mr Luke Sharp’s derring-do adventures in SCP in Northern Michigan during the first half of the 19th century, including as thay do sound advice on how to select a switch to be used on oneself and the best way to commit grievous bodily harm to schoolmasters.
I have therefore modified the first link in your contribution #294 above so as to display the full article, and here is the revised and comprehensive version.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Sep 14, 2019#296
Major William Butler rules Illinois Boy School with an iron hand in 1928.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d& … —1928—
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d& … —1928—
Meet your successor Otto A. Elliott. William, go find a job. Floggers need not apply.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d& … —1928—
Preceptress Mrs Ophelia Armigh (mentioned here before) of Illinois Girl School met a similar fate for her novel ways of handling them in 1911.
Unlike New Jersey she employed her own professional spankers that had to go find a job. Miss Caroline Baldwin and Mrs Adelaide Compton.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d& … igh——-
Hired Miss Margaret Elliott. Ophellia go find a job. Floggers need not apply.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d& … igh——-
Things got better. Girls never get better spanked or not spanked.
https://books.google.com/books?id=RcCxj … &q&f=false
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Oct 21, 2019#297
A century ago rarely did the courts side with the aggrieved plaintiff. While there was no shield law the courts usually gave the school the benefit of the doubt. Principal Early was given that privilege.
https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers. … ——-0–
127 rawhide lashes expertly apply hitting the nail on the head to boy savages.
https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers. … 1908—0–
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Oct 25, 2019#298
The pros and cons of school corporal punishment has been a controversy that just doesn’t seem to go away. Ever rule or regulation has been thought about and discussed for centuries. Polices are often achieved through a robust discussion followed by a minority and majority position.
Some of the highest educated people in the USA resided in Boston and in 1880 this was the best they could do.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 57%2C5579/
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Oct 26, 2019#299
Holding teachers (knights of the birches) accountable and their scholars to higher standards is a great idea. It applies today as it did in 1849 Dubuque, Iowa and more so in underperforming schools that still spank their student body in more ways than one. We have as many pettyfoggers (lawyers) and quacks (doctors) as incompetent teachers today as then.
Inversion was a word used for homosexuality by Marcel Proust but I am sure not in this context where there is little hope for conversion. It was a perversion and not a disability like dyslexia. ????
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 52%2C5519/
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Jan 16, 2020#300
As far back as 1926 the paddle was frowned upon by almost all the faculty.
I approve of paddling H . W . Blake of the division of public speaking , who is an Alpha Kappa Lambda, declared. The traditional use of the wooden slab implants in the freshman a feeling of inferiority, and encourages the inferiority complex, a thing much needed by most fraternity freshmen. It is an enemy of egotism.
https://idnc.library.illinois.edu/?a=d& … l+paddling+——–
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Feb 12, 2020#301
Who would ever imagine that a 1911 story on school discipline would become just the opposite considering paddling in the USA and the of caning 2020 UK caning?
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 78%2C6631/
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Feb 13, 2020#302
Robust discussions frequently occurs throughout the history of America well over a century ago. One of the major reasons for the precipitous decline was the legal prohibition of corporal punishment. The city of New York was debating corporal punishment forty years after its prohibition in New Jersey. This man was unsuccessful though the majority of the principals agreed with him by a healthy majority.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 03%2C8173/
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Mar 04, 2020#303
Philosophy of Whipping from 1835 Educational Magazine.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3 … 392086/28/
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Mar 30, 2020#304
The case of corporal punishment being applied to Josephine Foster is not unfamiliar to readers of the estimable Forum. This is the side of people who were vilified for what may have been good people looking out for a young lady’s best interests. Those that are demonizing those that are still spanking 17-year-olds should not assume they don’t have their best interests should keep this in mind.
Here is some news about that June 12, 1866 brouhaha closer to the front lines.
June 18, 1866
https://cambridge.dlconsulting.com/?a=d … ine+Foster+——
June 21, 1866
https://cambridge.dlconsulting.com/?a=d … ine+Foster+——
Vilified
August 11, 1866
https://cambridge.dlconsulting.com/?a=d … ine+Foster+——
The school distributed to 4,000 citizens.
October 13, 1866
https://cambridge.dlconsulting.com/?a=d … ine+Foster+—-
They kept their jobs after they were put through what must have been a harrowing ordeal.
November 17, 1866
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 84%2C2264/
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Apr 18, 2020#305
This 1845 appeal to the end the frequent use of corporal punishment brings to my mind unpleasant times as very young students in a crowded classroom with fixed desk and chairs under the age of and at times without outdoor recess in Boston like climate.
Give me a droll and get me a violin and I’ll now get up on my horse. The cruelest blow of all is to be told I have to work harder to let go or I need to seek out professional help. I am not from the school of thought that says it didn’t do me no harm. Those who say that never learned English.
My second grade teacher may have not been properly prepared to teach, but even under the best of circumstances, that is not an excuse for cruelty especially knowing my struggles. I came to school with a patch with my Dad hoping to correct a lazy eye without an expensive opetation.
Last column and second from the bottom article.
https://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/h … Page=false
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Apr 18, 2020#306
In the editorial linked there are questions that would never be asked where the paddle still swings and sings. The authoress passed less than two years ago at 98 and was graduate with honors with a sociology degree. The article when I was a senior.
1968 was such a pivotal year. 49 states permitted corporal punishment with only New Jersey banning the practice a century before. Which student gets punished? The south has a handbook, embedded traditions and a bible so these questions don’t even cross their minds.
I think the one question that Paula Flowe had that flummoxed Renee of TWP dubious origin the most was when asked to name me a college that teaches how to paddle. Renee was appalled that the students were appaled they were not inform in their preparation to join the MS Teacher Corp though they graduated from the same MS university that attracts students throughout the USA.
https://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/h … Page=false
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Apr 25, 2020#307
In 1941 Down Under Miss Dulcie Deamer refutes all the bogus arguments that she perceives as wanting. She wasn’t a hypocrite and applied her theory upon her two sons and warmed their bottoms. Give credit where credit is due.
Oh, I think I know all the an
swers! Corporal punishment is ‘ig-
norant barbarism/’ and ‘Fascist’; it
is a ‘juvenile erotic stimulant’ (and
here parlor psychologists will quote
the perverted, secretly-meeting ‘fla-
gellents,’ a section of which smutty
Continental cult even exists, to my
knowledge, in Sydney); it ‘shocks
and degrades the spanked child’s
character’ — and so on.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti … -year=1941
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May 13, 2020#308
In the days of yore people didn’t lack for strong opinions on the subject of spanking. One of the most amusing one occurs in 1895 and in all places from the state of Montana.
First column.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/data … 1/0242.pdf
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May 17, 2020#309
The Washington Critic is accredited with this 1886 poem. Little did the schoolmarms know their pupils would not let their praises go unsung so long after their bottoms stung. One up from the bottom of the second column.
Some have such horrible reminisces while others fond memories as attested through all the recollections of posters here through the years. I have no fond memories and that is true of most Catholic school survivors.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … nge&page=1
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May 26, 2020#310
I wonder how many people are authorized to paddled in a school. Enterprise probably has more than two. Appling has someone along with Dr Starr administering swats. I wonder if he has. shared the duty with another when it comes to the girls? There is probably no way of knowing. Not everyone is required nor authorized.
It would be interesting to know if there are spankings on the same day by the one deciding the number of swats and exercising for an offense occurring in his of her presence. The days of hallway paddlings are not completely a thing of the past. The students are spared the fresh wrath of the administrator,
I would imagine it is restricted especially in today’s litigious societies, In 1892 Wales the claims of ill-usage of children was irritating to some authorities and not all that infrequent judging by the amount of stories recorded in newspapers.
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4 … 9/53/Tawse
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Another_Lurker
10K
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Unread postMay 26, 2020#311
Hello American Way,
A fascinating find, your link above. Thank you. I am struck by a couple of points.
The correspondent, who claimed to be an Assistant Schoolmaster, says that at that time, 1892, my own area of Nottingham was one of the few Boards of Education which allowed Assistant Teachers to beat children in school. Most Boards restricted beating to the Head Teacher. In Nottingham apparently trained Assistant Teachers could administer up to two strokes on the hand with a light cane or tawse.
Now there’s an explanation for the ‘Nottingham Strap’, an ancient leather punitive implement reported in this Forum from time to time by people who recall seeing it in a local museum. Sadly I still haven’t got round to visiting said museum, nor for that matter the local museum where someone reported here that it was possible to be strapped down bent over on a birching ‘pony’. Whether this required having the bottom bared wasn’t stated, but in any event I assume both museums are now closed due to the Covid-19 crisis so visits can once again safely be moved to the back of the queue!
The other point of interest is the staffing ratio the correspondent mentions for large schools. In 1892, for a school of 1000 to 1500 boys he quotes a staff of a Headmaster and 18 to 20 Assistant Teachers (it is fairly clear from the usage that ‘Assistant Teacher’ simply means a teacher, not an Assistant Head). Incredible to contemplate given today’s staffing ratio in such schools, which would necessitate far more staff than that. But not quite so surprising to those of us who remember classes of over 50 taught by a single unassisted teacher in the late 1940s and 1950s.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postJun 05, 2020#312
A century and a decade later there was no tendernerness inherent in a woman’s nature when
I ducked a projectile that hit a goody two shoes in her mouth. That eraser, destined for me, had her name written on it, “duck you idiot!”
1854.
https://cambridge.dlconsulting.com/?a=d … Rod+ferule+——
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Unread postJun 05, 2020#313
A male corporally punishing a 16-year-old female has never settle well even in the middle of the nineteenth century in New England. The Catholic paper didn’t see it as something all that newsworthy. The “serenade” was nothing more than a tempest in a Boston teapot. Bottom of the column.
It is still a tempest in the teapot where the confederate flag once waved.
https://newspapers.bc.edu/?a=d&d=pilot1 … r%22——
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Unread postJun 05, 2020#314
While I am sure some will rebuke me for posting a same old same old boring article, but before you take me to task, read and you might learn something. However unverifiable, I am sure there is some historical value in seeing a snapshot of 1877 school corporal punishment policies.
I already feel better getting that off my chest.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti … decade=187
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Unread postJun 07, 2020#315
Paddling is slow to die in Oklahoma.
Down at Pop’s and Gigi’s Café, plenty of people had stories about getting spanked when they were kids. Weatherly said, when her son was in school in Inola, she signed the permission slip to swat right in front of him. “He never got a lick in school. That might have had something to do with it,” said Weatherly.
https://ktul.com/news/investigations/in … ma-schools
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Unread postJun 21, 2020#316
Rarely in the USA have there been a distinction between genders when it comes to corporal. They either think it of some value or of none but all agree there should be some restrictions. There are occasional mentions of girls being exempt but very few in the distant past and rarer still in the recent past.
The fact that this UK 1895 story would end up in the USA is surprising and even more surprising that someone as high in the government would weigh in on the matter.
What makes the fair sex bottoms so sacred? The delicate hands I can understand.
Can’t spank ’em. The fair sex is sacred from the rod of correction.
https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers. … 1895—0–
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Unread postJul 11, 2020#317
190 years ago there is a fascinating article relating to school corporal punishment in Virginia. Troublesome students are as much of a challenge then as now. Human nature doesn’t change nor with the pros or cons. Page 2 lower left hand column. Peruse the paper to see the ugly side of American history.
https://virginiachronicle.com/cgi-bin/v … ion——-
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Unread postJul 17, 2020#318
Dr G Stanley Hall ran against the tide as president of the prestigious Clark University had his controversial ideas about corporal punishment even for a century ago.
https://news.hrvh.org/veridian/?a=d&d=k … l+flogging+——
Girls in their mid teens should be gushy and sentimental at least sometimes. Clark honors their founder in so many ways. Let us hope the radical feminists don’t go on a hormonal driven rage upon reading these articles and deface the memory of the founding president.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 37%2C5746/
https://www.britannica.com/biography/G-Stanley-Hall
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Unread postAug 02, 2020#319
This comes from an Iowa newspaper that assumes the reader would know by Butler County one would be referring to Bristow. Professor Correll spanked more than just the girls. He anticipate the fairness approach that prevails to this very day and was a precursor of woman’s liberation, Why should young ladies be deprived of anything their elders felt would do their brothers good? Why should size, sex or previous condition of swellheadedness make one bit of a difference? No southern jury would act any differently in 2020.
https://www.coloradohistoricnewspapers. … ——-0–
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Unread postAug 02, 2020#320
It is better to go right to the source and not via another paper with reference to the naughty Iowa young ladies. They will be behaving more lady like and won’t be so cheeky.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 37%2C7618/
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 34%2C1232/
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2015holyfamilypenguin
4,320
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Unread postSep 05, 2020#321
The peculiar thing about this prior posting is that it comes from the front page of a West Virginia newspaper perhaps more likely written by the poor losers of the Civil War still unable to surrender. More coverage is given to the whipping of Josephine Foster because it comes from what they refer to the Athens of America. Harvard University is close proximity to Cambridge, Massachusetts where the university is located.
I am not sure if the self-confessed designated paddler was handed this insightful article by a big black high school high school female athlete she would still have been spared what the white principal expected what the white girl would be subjected sincd both would be punished for an altercation that left marks on the black girl inconsistent with self defense.
Even if that were not the case I disagree with their mutual non-combatant rule issued in the handbook but the designated paddler had no right to abrogate that policy and executing her judgement that exculpated the white girl she did know while punishing the black girl she did not know. The matter should have been handed over to the white principal with her recommendation and left to his judgment. She thought she knew better than the principal.
She all likelihood would vehemently disagree with this considered opinion by a well acclaimed 19th century scholar that she would probably find more appalling than appealing. IMHO this priorly posted link is worth a gander to give one a historical perspective. Someday the radical feminists may become a source of derision? I will never revisit this matter no matter how egged on by teacher’s pet.
https://virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=TW … ent——-
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Unread postSep 13, 2020#322
This is the way a student would look at paddling from a conservative republican area. Wylie practiced his First Amendment right and was told the outcome of his behavior could be worse. That is not implying more swats but time suspended. It all a matter of fact. This paddling was a precipitating incident that set off the cache of Twitter.
He seems like a very nice lad. It was probably his first paddling. He certainly doesn’t hold any hard feelings. He certainly wasn’t being sexually exploited or assaulted.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/teens-fac … nt-walkout
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Unread postOct 01, 2020#323
The age old question of to spank or not to spank is older than the expression to be or not to be. The question was asked over and over again in New York City when the matter was settled forty years before in New Jersey and more so fifty years ago.
Gotham City 1906
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 66%2C3842/
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Unread postOct 07, 2020#324
Much has been written about corporal punishment that some may agree or disagree but if one is to find common ground one must turn to the wisdom of ages past.
1912 short story.
https://washingtondigitalnewspapers.org … t%22——
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Unread postOct 14, 2020#325
This is an interesting court case in the commonwealth of Virginia in 1879. He was lucky he got off with a slap on the hand and not a punch in the nose. Thanks to one sensible juror he at least wasn’t spared five dollars and court costs. I hope the appeal costs himself as well.
https://virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=AG … %22——-
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Unread postOct 29, 2020#326
One of the oldest in print opinion on school corporal punishment is found in the link. Students must have been allowed early in USA by the fact it is specifically prohibited to inflict corporal punishment tother own. That is true for the prohibition for girls.
I suppose girls should be grateful that no boy would be tasked to spanked them when naughty as I am sure they were and perhaps even naughtier knowing they were exempt. That would never occur but it would occur to me.
1790. Be sure to hit the persistent link.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 80%2C5077/
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KKxyz
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Unread postOct 29, 2020#327
2015holyfamilypenguin wrote: ↑Oct 29, 2020
One of the oldest in print opinions in the USA on school corporal punishment is found in the link. Students must have been allowed early in USA by the fact it is specifically prohibited to inflict corporal punishment tother own. That is true for the prohibition for girls.
I suppose girls should be grateful that no boy would be tasked to spanked them when naughty as I am sure they were and perhaps even naughtier knowing they were exempt. That would never occur but it would occur to me.
1790. Be sure to hit the persistent link.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 80%2C5077/
Text of the Boston Committee’s Recommendations of 1790
Gazette of the United-States, January 20, 1790, Page 324.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … d-1/seq-4/
BOSTON. SYSTEM OF PUBLIC EDUCATION.
VOTES of the COMMITTEE appointed to carry into execution the SYSTEM of PUBLIC EDUCATION, adopted by the Town of BOSTON, 15th October, 1789.
RECOMMENDATIONS to the SCHOOL MASTERS, by the Committee appointed to carry the preceding SYSTEM into execution.
THAT the Schoolmasters consider themselves as in the place of parents to the children under their care, and endeavor to convince them by their mild treatment, that they feel a parental affection for them.
That they be sparing as to threatenings or promises, but punctual in the execution of the one and the performance of the other.
That they never make a dismissal from school, at an earlier hour than usual, a reward for attention or diligence; but endeavor to lead the children to consider being at school as a privilege, and dismissal from it as a punishment.
That they never strike the children on the head, either with the hand, or any instrument; nor authorize one scholar to inflict any corporal punishment on another.
That, when circumstances admit, they suspend inflicting punishment until some time after the offence committed, or conviction of the offence.
That, as soon as is practicable, they exclude corporal punishment from the schools; and, particularly, that they never inflict it on females.
That they introduce such rewards as are adapted to stimulate the ingenuous passions of the children.
That they inculcate upon the scholars the propriety of good behavior, during their absence from school.
That they frequently address their pupils on moral and religious subjects;
endeavoring to impress their minds with a sense of the being and providence of God, and the obligations they are under to love, serve, and pray to him ;
their duty to their parents and masters ;
the beauty and excellence of truth, justice, and mutual love;
tenderness to brute creatures, and the sinfulness of tormenting them and wantonly destroying their lives;
the happy tendency of self-government and obedience to the dictates of reason and religion ;
the duty which they owe their country, and the necessity of a strict obedience to its laws;
and that they caution them against the prevailing vices, such as Sabbath-breaking, profane cursing and swearing, gaming, idleness, writing obscene words on the fences, &c.
That, for the sake of uniformity, in the government of the schools the masters, in their conferences together, form systems of rules for the observance of the children, and present them to the Committee for their approbation; which being approved, shall be considered as the standing Laws of the Schools.
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The Gazette of the United States was the leading Federalist newspaper of the late 18th century, a time of intense partisan politics. Adopting the motto, “he that is not for us, is against us,” the newspaper was a staunch defender of the Federalist administration and a ruthless attacker of its critics. Editor John Fenno began the Gazette as a semi-weekly newspaper, with the first edition appearing on April 15, 1789, in New York City, the nation’s capital at the time. Its biggest supporter was Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton, who organized its initial funding and was a primary, albeit anonymous, contributor of letters and essays.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution requiring the separation of church and state was adopted of 1791. It would have been under active debate at the very time the Boston committee was meeting.
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postOct 30, 2020#328
Interesting information. When I think about the the religious righteous I wonder if if ever occur to them that our Founding Fathers were open minded Deists and not closed minded fanatics. I still say Founding Fathers and not Founders without regret for it is a slippery slope. Women can hold their head held up high for they have Betsy Ross.
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Unread postOct 30, 2020#329
In 1793 report cards became as much a source of apprehension or even more than fines or corporal punishment. Be sure to hit persistent link.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn … 17%2C2034/
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Unread postNov 04, 2020#330
1891 General Spinner octogenarian and philosopher opines page 3 column 2 Spare the Rod. In the early 1800’s education was about induction (induced from behind).
https://virginiachronicle.com/?a=d&d=RD … %22——-
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postNov 30, 2020#331
One of the problems that vexed humankind is how hard to spank. Machines can be set in proportion to the offences and sizes of the culprit but not to a desired intensity. A football center needs to be spanked harder than the girl on the top of a cheerleader’s pyramid. How hard should not be left up to a few individuals.
The British mothers could learn something from the Yanks even in 1914.
Scientific Spanking. a movement has been started by a Mother’s Club, over 100 strong, at Haverford, Pennsylvania, to nationalise and standardise the punishment of children. It is agreed that the discipline of children can best be promoted by corporal punishment, judiciously devised and systematically executed, but it is complained that hitherto American mothers have generally failed to recognise that offences and their punish ments should bear fixed and logical relationship to each other. These Pennsylvania mothers have divided all offences Into three groups, thoughtlessness, disobedience, and moral turpitude, and they aim at creating a standard maximum and minimum punishment—some form of spanking that really punishes without injury—duly modified according to age. It is agreed that all punishments shall be upon the bare skin ant always in private, each parent being allowed some latitude in view bf the fact that some children require more than others.
“Scientific spanking” seems to be the watchword of Haverford’s club, and the effort to work out a scale of punishments suitable to juvenile offenders commands general sympathy in a country where as regards native Americans, families are usually very small and frequently very spoiled. In this connection one notes with pride that Haverford mother contrast the discipline of British children to the disadvantage of American juveniles and they suggest that the explanation is that British mothers realise that to spare the rod spoils the child
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Unread postNov 30, 2020#332
Source for last posting. Be sure to check out that bicycle.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/arti … d+spanking
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Another_Lurker
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Unread postNov 30, 2020#333
Hello American Way,
Errm, it’s a motor-cycle not a bicycle. Are you not old enough to have ridden one like that? ????
I am disappointed though. Having read the preamble to the ‘bicycle’ link in your preceeding contribution #331, on seeing your ‘check out that bicycle’ comment in #332 I was expecting a picture of a member of the 1914 Haverford, Pennsylvania Mothers Club seated on one of the sit up and beg cycles of the era mounted on a stand, the tyre of the back wheel replaced by a belt drive to a spanking machine,
A device on the cycle handlebars would control a gearing system on the spanking machine by Bowden cable, so that a steady pedalling speed on the cycle could produce a range of spanks, from a rapid but fairly light initial warning spanking through to a very slow (plenty of time between strokes for the pain to sink in) but very hard spanking. The offender, secured bent over at the business end the spanking machine (and to be bare-bottomed apparently, according to the article) could then be suitably dealt with.
Whether they were boy or girl, child or teenager, big and robust or small and delicate, guilty of thoughtlessness, disobedience, or moral turpitude, first offender or hardened recidivist, a suitable gear setting on the handlebar control would be selected and the administration of a carefully matched, approved and standardised penalty would proceed in combination with a little beneficial light exercise for the mother administering the punishment.
So disappointed am I to find a mere antique motor-cycle in the picture that I may have to build the device I so eagerly envisioned in the expected illustration. Plenty of suitable bits in the garage from my cycling days. Also, come to think of it, a nearby young lady neighbour who is a keen cyclist and of suitable age to be a test rider substitute for one of the 1914 Haverford, Pennsylvania mothers bent upon scientific categorisation of corporal punishment.
But a volunteer for test naughty offspring undergoing scientifically calculated corporal correction? Hmm, trickier that one! But the lot of an inventor is sometimes to test his own invention, and some might say who better? Errm, can we pass on the ‘on the bare skin’ requirement stipulated by the Haverford mothers? No problem with the ‘always in private’ requirement in that garage, but at this time of the year it’s darn cold! ????
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KKxyz
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Unread postNov 30, 2020#334
No pedagogues or naturists / naturalists in sight
1914.gif (32.96KiB)
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2015holyfamilypenguin
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Unread postDec 01, 2020#335
This was my baby. Flew to Cincinnati and return from Louisville and biked around Kentucky without ever using a car 40 years ago. Put your bike in a box and go.
https://www.etsy.com/listing/889417743/ … 8da71cd06c
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Another_Lurker
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Unread postDec 02, 2020#336
Hello American Way,
Nice cycle! I could strip, service and adjust everything on that, right down to the ball bearings, springs and pawls in the rear block! Which is a great deal more than can be said for modern bikes. I wouldn’t know where to start on most of ’em and folks pay more to have them serviced annually than they pay for servicing their cars! Mind you, some of them cost more to buy than cars. Do they go any faster than the one in your picture? Not a great deal.
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