The proposed caning of Kathleen Marsh

This interesting caning incident was posted on here at some point during my absence. I found the post when I read through some of the threads, on my return. Now I can’t find it!!!
Luckily, I have the incident in my collection and I have added my typed out version on attachment.

It is from ‘The Daily Express,’ 1962, and concerns the forthcoming caning of fourteen year old pupil, Kathleen Marsh.
Headed: ‘Kathleen is Ready for a Caning,’ the girl attended the Wroughton Secondary Modern School in Wiltshire.

Her offence was for merely writing a date on her hand.  As far as I’m concerned, I think that is a pathetic reason to cane any pupil, let alone a girl. Frightened of being caned, Kathleen ran away from both school and home and disappeared for a period of 36 hours. This, of course was a worry for her parents.

The girl returned home, well and unharmed.

But of course returning to school would bring about the caning.  If she was a badly behaved girl, I do not know, but it should be pointed out that Kathleen had been caned before and it was that experience that prompted her to run away.

It does seem as if Kathleen was genuinely frightened of being caned, and thus, being the old softie that I am, I hope that, given the circumstances, the girl was not caned and a form of pastoral/ welfare care was given to her.

What do members think? On the given facts, a caning, still, for writing on her hand?

Or:

A caning with extra strokes, not only for writing on her hand, but for leaving school without permission  and running away.

Or:

Should the school have refrained from caning her and afforded her welfare care?

I cannot see anything online, at this stage that gives an indication as to what happened.  My guess is, 1962 or not, I suggest she wasn’t caned. It would look bad for the reputation of the school

Thank you,

Paul.

Hi Paul

To be caned for writing on your hand in any era is silly and should not have been a offense especially since it was just a date. As to welfare care im hoping her parents got her some counselling or at the very least for the time 1962 had a very thorough heart to heart to make sure they were  on the same page and concerns by all were addressed. To punish her more at this point would probably make her leave again.

Hello, Kevin,
Lovely to hear from you. I trust that you are keeping well.
You echo my sentiments: I hope that at least her parents were invited in for a meeting.  The reality is, it was the school’s decision to cane her for a mere triviality that caused the girl to run away.
Thank you,  Kevin,
Paul

The punishment of a  caning is disproportionate but nevertheless she should have been prepared to accept what was authorised. I would hope the caning would have been applied to that part of her anatomy best able to receive such punishment.

Hello, Members,

I have enclosed the SCP guidelines for Wiltshire CC, that was revised during 1970.

I’m uncertain of any changes that were made that differed from those set when Kathleen Marsh was caned in  1962.
So far as girls were concerned, I wouldn’t think too many.

See the guideline ‘Girls.’ (4,5, and 7).

Guidelines on attachment

Thank you,

Paul

Hello Paul,

I think there may be as transcription error in your Daily Express item as 5 July 1962 was a Thursday, not a Monday.  But no matter.  The article says that the threat of the cane and Kathleen’s fleeing of the school to escape it occurred on the previous Monday. Assuming that the day of the paper was indeed Thursday that would make the date of the incident  Monday 2 July 1962.

Even in those dark unreconstructed days of 1962 I find it difficult to believe that a school would cane a pupil merely for writing a date on their hand.   I wonder therefore if there is more to the story than appears in the Daily Express article you transcribed. We need to ask ourselves what happened in schools around the date concerned.  The answer is of course examinations.

Did Kathleen write several dates on her hand rather than one?  Did she write data rather than a date and the reporter misheard?  No matter, if as seems quite possible to me she was using the writing on her hand to cheat in an examination the matter is a serious one and could certainly have merited the cane in many schools in that era.

In  today’s world the uneasy about SCP with modern kids Another_Lurker would prescribe a jolly good telling off and, obviously, a failure in the exam concerned.  But back in 1962, when I still believed in SCP?  Why, six of the best on the bottom in front of the whole school of course.  A demonstration of the seriousness of the matter and a bit of pour encourager les autres at the same time to discourage anyone else from trying the same sort of silly stunt!

Oops, just seen your STOPP version of LEA regs for Wiltshire.  On the bottom not permitted for girls and in front of the school not permitted at all.  So it will have to be three on each hand from an authorised female teacher in private other than another teacher as witness.

And an aside.  I have tried to find the post here which led you to the Daily Express article without success.  The only mentions of Kathleen Marsh and/or Wroughton are in this thread.  However I did find a post I seem to have overlooked, and as it had a rather good picture of Mr Guise and his accomplice I’ll link it in your thread here later tonight.

why should she have been prepared to accept what was authorized. that makes no sense to me, why should she cringingly accept an unfair punishment just because someone in authority sad so. this expectation of grovelling acceptance of a violent attack seems at odds with any conception of a free people. bowing to t6he masters lash seems the very definition of slavery.

In considering the likely misdemeanour of Ms Marsh I am reminded of the scene in the ‘Puberty Blues’ film where one of the two cheating girls wrote her crib sheet on an area  rather more commodious than her hand and crucially, or at least she hoped it would be crucial, invisible except when she consulted the data.  Clue:  Just as Ms Marsh could have been (and quite possibly was) caned very appropriately on the part of her anatomy used in the commission of the crime, so also could the girl in the ‘Puberty Blues’ film,  if she’d been in the Republic of Korea rather than Australia that is!

The actual outcome in ‘Puberty Blues’ was that the girls, together with the boys they assisted with information in the exam, were spotted and hauled up before the Principal.  Corporal punishment ensued, but only for the boys, and NOT for the cheating.

Oliver Sydney very kindly relocated the clip for me recently, but now it is alas gone from YouTube. 

Hello, A.L,
Me again!!!
Correct! Well spotted! No visit to the strict Miss. Best for you! You are let off! You can add two gold stars to your name. The’ Monday’ date was a ‘Paul’ error. I have checked my ‘Daily Express’ newspaper cutting, which is, sadly, also looking worse for wear, celloptaped into my tatty old 1970’s scrapbook!!! It just says ‘5th July 1962,’  I think what fogged my mind was that she ran away on a Monday for thirty-six hours, which would have taken her to a Thursday return to school. Thus I wrote Monday.

Yes, exactly, exams!! It could have been a spot of cheating going on which puts a new slant on it. Failing that, surely it must have been something a little more serious than just a date. But I do wonder that if Kathleen had been cheating, that she, knowing how serious that would be, might well have gone and taken her caning. Who knows!

You have an image of Mr. Guise and Mrs. Smith??? Oh, yes, please, do post! Thank you so much.

DMP,  hello. I thank you for your contribution. Under the circumstances of the Kathleen Marsh incident, I would not have thought she was caned. I think there would have been more on this had she been. A lot of local anger is my guess and the school being put in a bad light. She ran away and was missing, and that was largely caused by the school.

But, I do disagree with you about authority.  Back at that time, if the rule of the school was the cane, then, like it or not, both parents and pupils had to accept that. Protests or not.

I was in a conversation with the headmistress of a senior school about four years back. I was carrying out some work there. It was September and there had been a spate of newspaper  articles about pupils, girls, mainly, complaining, along with their parents, about  changes to school uniform policy. Some refused to go to school. Others protested outside, again with parents. Both local and national newspapers were full of various incidents of protest up and down the U.K.
I asked the headmistress for her thoughts regarding the protests:

She said that so far as she was concerned the school she was head of, quote, “didn’t ask for much.” she added “We have no blazer or tie. But what we do ask for, I expect our students to wear.”
She said also;
“Regarding the other schools, if it is the rule of those schools then they must be followed. If the rule of the school is broken, then there is no school.”
I think she is correct.
We all have to answer to authority in our lives.

Thanks,
Paul

Hi Paul,
Where did you get the Wiltshire regulations from?
They are badly worded and confusingly brief.
Reg 7 ” by hand”could easily be construed as the cane is the usual instrument for boys  but if the pupil is a girl you can only use your hand which strongly infers an OTK spanking or similar

Hi, Sir John 2,
Good to hear from you.

The copy came from the STOPP publication. The anti-SCP campaigners, or pressure group, contacted every LEA in the England & Wales and asked for a copy of their SCP guidelines. Many LEA’s responded, others didn’t.

The copy you see is what Wiltshire CC would have sent STOPP.  I assume in putting the publication together typos could have been made.
I also noticed the ‘by hand.’ reference  They mean  ‘Girls ‘On the hand, only.’ If you look above that it says ‘cane, only.’

Thanks,
Paul.

Hello Paul,

In a recent contribution addressing me you wrote:

Hello, A.L,
Me again!!!
Correct! Well spotted! No visit to the strict Miss. Best for you! You are let off! You can add two gold stars to your name.
[text snipped]
You have an image of Mr. Guise and Mrs. Smith??? Oh, yes, please, do post! Thank you so much.

Oh dear, there has been I have made a dreadful mistake!  But in a spirit of full and frank disclosure I shall confess all!  While looking for something else I discovered this contribution by JamieMurphy which I didn’t recall seeing before.  It lead me to this article which I was sure was new to me.  In something of a hurry at the time I scanned very rapidly down and seeing a picture of a male and a female about the right age immediately followed by text referring to the Helston incident I assumed the picture was of Mr Guise and Mrs Smith.  Later, without viewing the article again I made my post #6 above, including that final sentence!   Very sorry!  I shall of course forfeit the two gold stars.  But as you know I now deprecate SCP though I sometimes only half jokingly speculate that JCP may one day return.  So rather than trouble Miss Best I shall instead surrender to the young lady opposite, meekly proffering my wrists for the ‘cuffs and offering no resistance to being led off to meet my well deserved fate.  I trust you will agree that will be a suitable penalty!  In addition it will give American Way the chance to continue his series on female fashion and CP in another thread!

Hello, A.L,
It’s 6.27am, precisely. I now go pour my first morning cuppa a broken man! Lol

I went to bed excited by the thought of a new image of Mr. Guise and Mrs. Smith.
While sippiing, I shall try to repair my tatty scrapbook as best I can!!
More anon!
Paul.

marathon8 wrote: ↑

Apr 22, 2020

The copy came from the STOPP publication. The anti-SCP campaigners, or pressure group, contacted every LEA in the England & Wales and asked for a copy of their SCP guidelines. Many LEA’s responded, others didn’t.
The copy you see is what Wiltshire CC would have sent STOPP.  I assume in putting the publication together typos could have been made.
I also noticed the ‘by hand.’ reference  They mean  ‘Girls ‘On the hand, only.’ If you look above that it says ‘cane, only.’
Thanks,
Paul.

When I looked at the Wiltshire information I too was, at first, more than a little suspicious. However we must remember this was pre personal computer days. Using a typewriter back then was, to a great extent, a skill that not that many had. Only girls were taught to type at school. Therefore it is not inconceivable that the writer did not possess typing skills.

Nowadays the easiest way to produce an accurate authentic copy of a document would be to scan it or simply photocopy it. STOPP was formed in 1968, 62 years ago. That virtually makes it or copies of it made around that time a historic document. The supposed Wiltshire CC document, even for the time, is poorly typed. The person who typed it certainly wasn’t a proficient or trained typist.

Back in around 1965 I bought a good quality portable typewriter as my then chosen profession required reasonable typing skills. I even did evening classes to improve my typing skills. As the only lad in the class I really enjoyed it. A new experience for a lad from a boys grammar school!

Hello Paul,

Paul wrote:While sippiing, I shall try to repair my tatty scrapbook as best I can!!

Get some of those transparent sleeves and slip each page carefully inside one.  Of course in a few years time they’ll probably do a ‘Sellotape’ and turn opaque yellow while sticking where they shouldn’t and not sticking where they should!  

I really should dig out my own battered archives.  The readers’ letters series on SCP in the local rag from many years ago was a hoot!  Largely fictional though I suspect.

Readers’ letters on any subject were always a bit suspect. Editors needed to fill space in every edition. So a ‘letter’ concerning a controversial or topical subject was penned by one of the staff. Then it was hoped that it might provoke genuine readers to contribute. Most letters were shown as unsigned or with just initials so readers couldn’t identify the authors. It was a standard ploy in most local rags!

Six of the Best,
I can confirm what you say is absolutely correct. Newspapers were not the only culprits

Many many moons ago I had a relationship with one of the assistant editors of the now defunct Forum magazine . For those of you who can’t remember. Forum was born out of the very popular forum section of the somewhat dubious Penthouse mainstream sex magazine for men.

The staff themselves ( they were all female at Forum) would often write the contributions   although they sometimes just amended or improved posts actually received.
One of the things the Editor of Forum was paranoid about was any reference to possibly underage girls in whatever context. School CP was a popular topic at the time so a large number of alleged recipients were upgraded to 6th formers.

Sir John 2,
You’re absolutely right but I wasn’t referring expressly to newspapers except the mention of local rags. As you say real genuine readers’ letters were sometimes manipulated to avoid breaking laws, underage, etc. Over the years some things became acceptable to print and others went the other way. For instance, in the 1960s/70s mention of SCP properly administered according to LEA rules was a perfectly acceptable subject provided mention of it didn’t become in any way sexual. Another factor was that any letter genuine or not should not offend the great majority of readership.

Hello six of the best,

six of the best wrote:Back in around 1965 I bought a good quality portable typewriter as my then chosen profession required reasonable typing skills. I even did evening classes to improve my typing skills. As the only lad in the class I really enjoyed it. A new experience for a lad from a boys grammar school!

Great fun isn’t it!  In my mid twenties I did an evening typing class for the ‘starter level’ RSA exam.  Just me and lots of teenage girls in the class.

The lady instructor was very strict, although I think I presented a bit of a quandary for her.   Sadly no SCP though, despite the fact that they still had it in the school on whose premises the class was held.  It would have had to be on the bottom in a typing class, whacking hands would have defeated the object of the exercise.  Hmm, yes, it would definitely have been worth the odd personal trip to the front to bend over …………..  

Ah well, one can but dream – especially after a month of lock-down!  I could touch my toes, knees straight, with ease in those days.  I bet some of the girlies wouldn’t have been able to though!  

I couldn’t take the exam because I was working for the exam board that dealt with it locally but I did learn to type properly, even if rather slowly.  Alas shortly afterwards when I went into computing it was all hexadecimal instructions set up on banks of on-off switches and it was a few years later by the time I needed to use a proper keyboard with any regularity.   By that time I was back to one finger plus one finger for the shift key typing.  Probably faster than I ever was with all my fingers, but you do give keyboards rather more of a bashing!

Note:  I am indebted to Hazel J Knowland, who left the Chorlton Central School, Manchester, in 1964 for the ping leader ringleader joke.  See this post from the very early days of the Forum.  You’ll need to scroll down a bit, it’s a big post – or page search for ping.  That will take you straight to it.

A L Thanks for the link to F R thread. Very much enjoyed reading that notwithstanding the fact that some of the quoted “posts” may have been false. I have never actually  visited the FR site.